there's always he no talk when you're in bug in that case, but you are a lone dissenter on the african union commission into su dawn. tell me how nuremberg emerges is a climax of imperialism, rather than justice after nazi defeat since newburgh rules. we often talk about them on this show. following orders is not good. your book is held up as the greatest achievement that came out of terrible time. supposed 945 nuremberg. it said to be the 1st international court. a richer upheld the principal or individual responsibility of hello. this is coming on the responsibility in the course of that nuremberg overlooked then just overlook, but to complete the side stepped the political project of the state and therefore a violence committed by the state. if a state by definition cannot commit crimes,

because crime is violation of the law of the state. individuals in the states individual state can commit crime. but not if you want to look at state violence or state authorized violence, as opposed to violent by individuals who overstep said with horrid. if you want to look at state authorized violence, you have to go to the politics of it. you have to look at violence as a political and not coming. now if i go to south to done, i want to take it slightly longer view. and the longer you takes us back to sort of the middle of the 1900 century. until the middle of the 1900 century,

the british imperial project was what we call the civilizing mission. and you come into the colony, your wife, the state clean, and you civilize them. through the introduction of western law and through western education, you created minority which would look like you talked like not look like you, but top like you think like you and which would be an intermediate in the colonial . well, that project failed completely with 1857, appraising in india. when the majority excluded rebuilt, the indian army created by the british mutiny against the british. there was a big debate in the british establishment. and the, and the turnaround comes with the thinking of, of henry may remain, says, look, you didn't understand in the into site. what we have to do is to understand it as

a historical society and therefore to harness the agency of indians themselves to lose india, to oppress, to oppress myself. i am hartley to do with the failure in ireland because you say that the source of it all, all is in england's oldest colony of is the 800 is ireland, where what rewards were given for scalping of irish people. right? right. so to continue the story just just, just a minute more britain then devise is another project which is not the project to civilize the indians, but the project to conserve indian tradition. and this gives it the opportunity to skulk that tradition and to freeze it. and the tradition that button scalds is what it calls religious law, customary law. and it sets it devise is 2 different separate set of customs hinder customary law, muslim customary law, and sets up

a chinese war between this project then expands with the defeat of britain in so done with my dia, late 19th century. and to bring this project to so done now, to recast the gun as a set of separate races was to call out of an african and then a set of separate tribes tribes with their own tribal homeland, et cetera. so by the time we come to south, we're done and independent of sell to done. so for don, is already being ruled as a separate set of separate tribes. each tribe with its own homeland, each tribe, it's customary law. each tribe with its customary chiefs. so this is the country that blows open after south to guns, independence in 2013, 2011 because each tribe more or less, wants it quick,

quick sidebar. since we're talking about the deep historical roots, you, you talk about this idea that i think most people have the arabic zation of, of the world as we knew it. then you have a problem with the way it's been talked about that to falls into your criticisms of the way we are of been deceived in our history books. as far as arab conquests influence within societies that worked well. if i buy zation, gives the idea, did the out of his migrate and occupied, calculated different countries and controlled it, but the items were very tight. so what does our, by zation me out of my zation men, that those who are the local population itself became up? why did they do it? they did this basically as

a state building project and i explore this into done. for example, if you take the case of sudan arabs who came in from egypt to suzanne, these arabs did not remain out of state d. r. a biased sudanese, i robbed, emerge in your state building project around how soon it emerged in the 16th century. and there emerged in the contract between the king on, on the one hand and the merchants in the expanding merchant tongues. and these merchants declared themselves not oriented to a local civilization, but pro cosmopolitan civilization apps. a why the, the, the reason why these post ottoman illusions arise in the, in history books in a moment. i better get back, i suppose, to the united states because you, you say of paramount importance is the 1st genocide in history. i know surrounding all of this is the d politicization in the history books of genocide. why do you,

why do you say that? am i? what? where we got to in nuremberg is actually rooted in the genocide of native americans naziism hitler. they drew on the genocide of native americans. 2 things happened in years. first was the genocide or of native american. and then was a solution. the final solution as to what to do with the native americans who survived. we went to just quickly give a figure because you put it in the book and people don't often repeat 75000000 people. 95 percent of the pre colombian population. the final solution comes from abraham lincoln and lincoln at the same time as the emancipation of slaves after the civil war. lincoln now generalize is an institution called the reservation. and what the reservation does is it takes each engine group as

a tribe and put this tribe draws a circle around it. this is your homeland. and this is a technique of depriving that group of most of the land confining it to a small part of the land. then it says, here you live according to your custom, your custom is age own. and this custom is defined and enforced by your customary leaders. and these leaders are not elected or anything to oversee this. they create a federal institution. and that, that federal institution is controlled by congress indians in the u. s. r wards of congress indians in the us do not belong to the indian reservation in india, in the reservation. do not belong to the political entity. we know as the us,

when the 1964 civil rights act was it did not apply to india because they are not a citizen. the reservation indians, especially had to be passed in 1966. but even that act advisory act does not come for rights, which the court can enforce its advisory. so the us then, when it confirms citizen to put an indian, it has different degrees of india, a different degrees of citizens. first class, 2nd coastal, the puerto rican got a different degree, like that. when naziism, when hitler comes, hitler said topic coming to your lawyers to see what to do with jewish jews who are citizens of german. the coming to your lawyers look at the american knowledge and says, hey, here is the. so we have jews defined as

a special category of citizens. if you look at the african american case, the one drop rule, which is that any person with one drop of african blood is considered africa in the us. ok if there says no, no, we will make it 25 percent. but then hitler takes the notion of the reservation and enclosure, and turns it into the concentration. hitler is full of admiration for the west, toward movement of the americans and the, the ability to decimate an entire people. so in that context, you can understand why it is so important to de politicize human rights in 2021. today, given this kind of history you delineated in this book, you call you say, new liberalism is the handmaiden of human rights de politicizing everything. but in

a way, so didn't urine berg de politicize. everything. nuremberg brought it down to the individual. put the state because for nuremberg to look at the german date would have for november, november for didn't have to look at the political projects of naziism. the political project or not to some was to remove minorities from german, store it soil and create germany is a pure nation state of germans, which is exactly what the allies were doing. eastern europe, exactly at the time. nuremberg trials were going on. germans were being expelled from all over eastern europe, and ethnic states were being created in eastern europe by the allies themselves. you compare the allied to dachau and concentration camps. administered by britain, london, and washington. i sighed to those who compared them. professor, my mood,

my money, i'll stop you there. more from one of the greatest living public intellectuals after this break. ah, scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. can we distinguish the real signs from the one being imposed upon us? we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in fighting information, fighting scientific evidence, and discrediting even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals. launch corporations, a challenge strongly by scientific evidence if you're emotionally invested and free markets, then climate change is a serious emotional threat. because dealing with it means we have to change our

approach to business industries or on the war bar, attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science, lighting science. that's how ignorant says manufactured their attention only seeking to the rail via this rolling. using sy against the shell, join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess from the world of politics. sport, business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. mm. oh right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that he's pretty and sugary and salty, and it is not at the individual level. it's not individual. well our and if we go

on believing that we're never changed it. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment. mm. hm, what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate with welcome back. out affiliate, talking justice colonialism in the nation states with professor mahmoud bummed on the author of neither cetera, nor native. it smart to just give a gun on the slide by the musical like hamilton, which has been very popular isn't, is managed, is to, to cover up genocide in a specific way like this, like it does in the musical, i should say, i haven't seen it. and in the popular imagination, these ideas are given no avenue. i've seen the musical and yes,

it to the audience that comes out of that music is in a celebratory mode. it because the trends of indicated yes, we committed crimes the crime of slavery, but we have had the moral courage to face up to it and to be with it. and we can see it to narrow to progress in the process. the crime that we haven't had the moral courage to even except acknowledge is lost out. the audience does not think about, and that's the genocide of the indians. and that's the containment in reservations on the surviving. but what do you think about the fact that as you say in the book graham, she angles they often to kind you appear to be saying to the united states and the exceptionalism and the protestant work ethics. these are the reasons you joyce,

joy, this genocide as being all important in the myths we have about american empire. when i make a striking logic, same whether on the left or on in the center or the right it, there is a one assumption that was common european would. even liberalism acknowledges one collective identity without any question, and that is the nation. marx acknowledged marks claim that there were historical nations and non historical nation, according to an historical nations nation bound to have their own nation state and non historical nations would not achieve that. it would live inside nation states, either nations. so what i'm saying is that politically this division between majority and minority is, is frozen as

a permanent division inside nation states which are considered natural entities. and the creation of permanent minority is at the root of extreme violence. if you look at extreme violence throughout africa, it is a violence between it is a violence that involves those created under belonging isn't as problem. and then my north africa was after all, the british flame that enough he got it. not i can come to stay with no major it. there were only minorities african tribes. and after independence, you have this struggle as to who would become a majority. well, i'll get you again to the civilizing dialectic, as you put it up, political violence. and in a moment the i want to talk about your positive views about a different way forward, which you base around south africa. obviously,

mandela nelson mandela considered a terrorist by nation major media in, in this country for so for so long. and why do you believe the negotiated settlement in south africa? which arguably is, goes to the reservation of african people, greater inequality now than under apartheid. why, why do you, why do you prefer that south african model? i should say, i've interviewed nelson mandela before he died. mandela told me, we have to do what the i m, f and world bank. tell us that seem to be the the end of the truth and reconciliation committee. to me, i distinguish the truth and reconciliation commission from the big oceans that took place. it came to to henry and t r. c was very much reg. is focused on individuals. it, it brought individuals to the television stage for kind of it

sure trial it performance. you only differences newer move with the nuremberg, whereas norm was about crime and punishment. t r c was about crimes and forgiveness but, but the mother was the se in the new responsibilities individual responsible to the did a completely different process to place a company in the group in the negotiation to come to the park. there was a recognition that the problem is political and we have to solve this political problem. and the political problem is the exclusion of particular groups, permanent exclusion of particular groups, in this case, the vast majority. so the natural thing would have been within if and if in independence iverson nation state was to be born, it will then be seen as a state of the black majority with with the whites. the indians,

the colored has so many national minorities for that's not the route that south africa took. it took a different route. it went, if you look at, if you follow the language of the n c, it began as a language of black majority. but then it went on to speak of and non racial democracy. in the south africa moment was the recognition by the n p, a movement that you are not fighting while you're fighting white's power. you are not just fighting apartheid. you had to come up with an alternative to a part. it was not just about turning the world upside down. it was about creating a new was. now apartheid had created 2 political categories based on which 2 people. one was raised, the other was try what the part of movement managed to do was to deeply size

race was not to be fine, political participation based on race, but it has been unable to be politicized type. he does continue to accept the tribe as custom and tribal it and franchise meant, and this home franchise meant as, as customary law. so if you look in south africa from 994, the white violence we have seen in south africa, the zeno for violence is not against white, it's not against race, it's against the tribal stranger. it's against the african who could come from outside the borders of south africa, which, which i'll give you suits. so be people in power, but across africa and is a theme in, in your book. you appear to be saying that n g o's basically govern the global south,

out of these ideas of post independent settlement, where the engineers do the work on the ground. and the african leaders attend submit to the top so so increasingly we have had aid froze in 2 different directions. is the, there is the aid or the financial flows that come to an african economy as a whole african political leaderships. and then there are financial flows which come to and jones, my international n, g o z, a local, then jeers. and so you have a form of governance, which is not accountable at all because it least the formal political leadership of africa is supposed to be accountable to the people. but the engineers have no accountability to the people they serve. the people they serve are recipients. they

are consumers. the accountability is to where the funds from the accountability is to the donors outside. so it's a totally empty democratic models that we have in structure. so in the book we have the i, c, c, not fit for purpose. where on my album here is of course, when saddam was a big blaze, we have and joe's, as you say, dealing with a kind of new colonialism, a form of power. you, you cite that the oslo accords as regards palestine. we're sell out by yasser arafat in, in your view, should palestinians not actually be that surprised at some ballast indian activists are about settler violence going on today and the head of christmas in the holy land in a, in a few weeks time. they shouldn't be that surprised, given what you write about as regards the path taken by the colonial

settling of jews in israel. i mean, i think there are different tendencies within within israel and israel palestine a, there is the center violence which is about continuing the not about getting radio for palestinians a from israel proper, but also from the west bank as much as possible. the problem of settler violence is that it does not have an end goal. it does, it does not. it does not have an idea of what to do with the palace to unless it's, except for a genocide, it has no, it wants to extend the physical territory of formerly, you know, it is the historical lens of its own imagination. but what to do with the

people on the land, it doesn't have a project to laid up before before the world. because obviously, the israeli government would completely deny any charge of the possibility of genocide as with those arming the israeli government as it bombs, syria and, and as it tries to climb down on the settlers, according to these really government, just find the on political violence. tell me about how you see it as how you see it as a dialectic for both reform and what exactly it can be useful, something that obviously people in power desperately fear, any kind of political violence. what role does it play? well, unlike criminal environments and what political violence tells us is that there are addressed grievances and the challenge is to identify

what these grievances are in the case oh, today what in most cases the unaddressed grievance is exclusion. exclusion from the political community or inclusion on it very unequal basis. for the palestinians in the west bank are excluded palestinians and guys are excluded the palestinians in site israel are included in one state, but when they are very unequal basis, this is the reason for political violence. so it challenges us to think of a new political form, which is not based on the claim to be a nation. a nation is a cultural construct. state is a political construct. what we need is to separate the 2. so as to make it possible for people, different cultures, different belonging to live in the same territory,

you can be an immigrant what you don't get me as an immigrant comes and accept an existing political structure, etc. comes in and wants to create it or are all state structure. so this is, this is the college professor. i'm not a thank you. thank you so much. that's over the show will be back on saturday to speak to the lawyer of native american political prisoner, lena bell, t, as well as another legendary voice on anti colonial struggles. terry? golly, until then keep in touch my social media and let us know if you think colonial practice is still being used to divide us ah a

happy hey. i know you said i hadn't been allowed to get them outside and by then coffee for sure. hold on either they by then is a shift or a foursome with multiple multiple gyms or more can connect to so that keeps off your health most of the work, but it shows the over here. marzano, do the have to put simple for this to say, yeah, i can the button, i was who it man a

loudly hold on it this year. how well it comes in and say, hey, do like a a to help you with what i can i maybe, maybe i'm maybe we can one minute love holes, particularly when polls further a certain political agenda, but polling has a check. her history as of late the last 2 election cycles, tell us as much, should we put much stock into polling any more if so, then why? with

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