terrible time, suppose 945. nuremberg is said to be the 1st international court which upheld the principle or individual responsibility and upheld this as coming on responsibility. in the course of that nuremberg overlooked then just overlook, but completely sidestepped the political project of the state. and therefore violence committed by the stake. a state by definition cannot commit crimes because a crime is violation of the law, the state. individuals in the space, individual state or haitians can commit crime, but not perfect. if you want to look at state violence or state authorized violence, as opposed to violence by individuals who overstep. stage with horrid. if you want

to look at state authorized violence, you have to go to the politics of it. you have to look at violence as a political and not coming. now, if i go to south to done, i want to take it slightly longer view. and the longer you takes us back to sort of the middle of the 1900 century until the middle of the 1900 century . the british imperial project was what we call the civilizing mission. as you come into the colony, you wipe the state clean and you civilize them through the introduction of western law and through western education, you created minority which would look like you talked like not look like you, but top like you think like you. and which would be an intermediate in the colonial

. well, that project completely with 1857, appraising in india. when the majority excluded rebuilt, the indian army treated by the british mutiny against the british. there was a big debate in the british establishment. and the, and the turnaround comes with the thinking of henry may handyman says, look, you didn't understand in the, in to say, what we have to do is to understand it as a historical society. and therefore, to harness the agency of indians themselves to lose india to oppress it, to a breast by cells. i'm hardly to do with the failure in island because you say the, the source of it all, all is in england's oldest colony, obviously 800 years island where what rewards were given for scalping of irish people. right. right. so to continue the story just just just

a minute more britain then why is, is another project which is not the project to civilize the indians, but the project to conserve indian tradition. and this gives it the opportunity to skulk that tradition and to freeze it. and the tradition that button scalds is what it calls, religious law, customary law, and it sets, it divides is 2 different separate set of customs hinder customary law, muslim customary law, and sets up a chinese war between this project then expands with the defeat of britain in so done with my dia, late 19th century, and to bring this project of so done now, the re casts were done as a set of separate races, was to call out of an african and then

a set of separate tribes tribes with their own tribal homeland, et cetera, so by the time we come to south to dunn and independent of south to done south for that is already being ruled as a separate set of separate tribes. each tribe with its own homeland, each tribe rates its customary law. each tribe with his customary chiefs. so this is the country that blows open after south to guns, independence in 2013, 2011, because each tribe more or less, want it quick, quick sidebar. since we're talking about the deep historical roots a you, you talk about this idea that i think most people have the arabic zation of, of the world as we knew it. then you have a problem with the way it's been talked about that to falls into your criticisms of the way we of been deceived in our history books. as far as arab conquests influence within societies that worked well.

if itemization gives the idea, did the art of his migrate and occupied, calculated different countries and controlled it, but the others were very tiny. so what does our, by zation itemization men that those who or the local population itself became up? why did they do it? they did this basically as a state building project and i explore this into done. for example, if you take the case of sedan herbs who came in from egypt to sue, done. these are not to remain arabs that d. r. a by sudanese i rubbed, emerge in your state building project around how soon it emerged in the 16th century. and there emerged in the contract between the king on,

on the one hand and the merchants in the expanding merchant tongues. and these merchants declared themselves not oriented to a local civilization, but pro cosmopolitan civilization ups. okay, what we're to, to, why the, the, the reason why these post ottoman illusions arise me in history books in a moment. i better get back, i suppose, to the united states because you, you say of paramount importance is the 1st genocide in the history. i know surrounding all of this is the d politicization in the history books of genocide. why do you, why do you say that? am what, where we got to in nuremberg is actually rooted in the genocide of native americans naziism hitler. they drew on the genocide of native americans. 2 things happened in the years. first was the genocide or of native american.

and then was a solution. the final solution is to what to do with the native americans, who so we want to just quickly give a figure because you put it in the book, and people don't often repeat 75000000 people. 95 percent of the pre colombian population. the final solution comes from abraham lincoln and lincoln at the same time as the emancipation of slaves after the civil war. lincoln now generalize is an institution called the reservation. and what the reservation does is it takes each indian group as a tribe. and this tribe draws a circle around it. this is your homeland, and this is a technique of depriving that group of most of the plant confining it to a small part of the land. then it says, here you live according to your custom, your custom is age own and this custom is defined and enforced by your customary

leaders. and these leaders are not elected to anything. to oversee this. they create a federal institution. and that, that federal institution is controlled by congress indians in the us or wards of congress. indians in the us do not belong to the indian reservation in india and in the reservation, do not belong to the political entity. we know as the us, when the 1964 civil rights act was passed, it did not apply to indians because they are not a citizen. the reservation indians, especially had to be passed to 1966. but even that advisory act does not come for rights,

which the court can enforce its advisory. so the us then, when it confirms citizenship, when indian it has different degrees of india, a different degrees of citizens 1st class, 2nd class. so the puerto ricans are a different degree, like that. when naziism, when hitler comes, he, hitler said, coming to your lawyers to see what to do with jewish jews who are citizens of german. the coming to your lawyers looks at the american roles and says, hey, here is the. so we have jews defined as a special category of citizens. it looks at the african american case, the one drop rule, which is that any person with one drop of african blood is considered african in the us. ok if there says no, no, we will make it 25 percent. but then hitler takes the notion of the reservation and

enclosure, and turns it into the concentration. hitler is full of admiration for the width toward movement of the americans and the, the ability to decimate an entire people. so in that context, you can understand why it is so important to politicize human rights in 2021. today, given this kind of history delineated in this book, you call you say, new liberalism is the handmaiden of human rights de politicizing everything. but in a way, so didn't urine berg de politicize. everything. nuremberg brought it down to the individual state. because for nuremberg to look at, the german state would have for november, november for didn't have to look at the political projects of naziism. the political project or not to them was to remove minorities from german,

store it soil, and create germany is a pure or nation state germans, which is exactly what the allies were doing. eastern europe, exactly at the time. nuremberg trials were going on. germans were being exposed from all over eastern europe and ethnic states were being created in eastern europe by the allies themselves. you compare the allied camps to dachau and concentration camps. administered by britain, london, and washington. i cited those who compared them. professor, my mood, my money, i'll stop you there more from one of the greatest living public intellectuals after this break. scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. can we distinguish the real science from the one being imposed upon us? we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in finding information, finding scientific evidence,

and discredit, even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals. launch corporations, a challenge strongly by scientific evidence if you're emotionally invested and free markets, then climate change is a serious emotional threat. because dealing with that means we have to change our approach to business industries or on the war bond attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science, lighting, science. that's how ignorance is manufactured, their attention only seeking to the rail via this rolling using stier to against the shell. join me every thursday on the alex salmon show, but i will be speaking together from the world politics sport, business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. mm

ah. well the funds, i make no, certainly no borders line to nationalities and you various as a merge, we don't have a tendency, we don't have a back seat. the whole world needs to take action to be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together

with ah, welcome back. i'm still here talking just as colonialism in the nation states with professor my mood mom daniel through neither settler nor native. is it? is it smart to, to just give a good on the side by that musical like hamilton, which has been very popular isn't, is manages to, to cover up genocide in a specific way like this, like it does in the musical, i should say, i haven't seen it and in the popular imagination, these ideas are given no avenue. i've seen the musical and yes, it, it to the audience that comes out of that music who is in a celebratory mode. it because it changed indicated, yes, we committed crimes the crime of slavery, but we have had the moral courage to face up to it and to deal with it. and

we can see it to narrow to progress in the process. the crime that we haven't had the moral courage to even except acknowledge is washed out. the audience does not think about, and that's the genocide of the indians. and that's the containment in reservations on the surviving. but what do you think about the fact that as you say in the book graham, she angles they often are too kind. you appear to be saying to the united states and the exceptionalism and the protestant work ethics. these are the reasons you joyce, joy, this genocide as being all important in the myths we have about american amber. when i make a striking logic, same where they're on the left or on in the center or the right it. there is a one assumption that was common european would even

liberalism acknowledge, is one collective identity without any question. and that is the nation. marx acknowledged marks claim that there were historical nations and non historical nation. according to in historical nations, nations bound to have their own nation state and non historical nations would not cheap that it would live inside nation states other nations. so what i'm saying is that politically, this division between majority and minority is, is frozen as a permanent division insight nation states which are considered natural entities. and the creation of permanent minority is at the root of extreme violence. if you look at extreme violence throughout africa, it is a violence between it is

a violence that involves those created under prolong and isn't as problem. and then my warranties, africa was after all, the british flame that in africa, not i can country still no majorities. there were only minorities african tribes. and after independence, you have this struggle as to who would become a majority again to the civilizing dialectic. as you put it, of a political violence, and in a moment the i want to talk about your positive views about a different way forward, which you base around south africa. obviously, mandela nelson mandela, considered a terrorist by nation nature, media in this country for so for so long. and why do you believe the negotiated settlement in south africa? which arguably has caused the reservation of african people greater inequality now than under apartheid. why, why do you, why do you prefer that south african model?

i should say, i've interviewed nelson mandela before he died. mandela told me we have to do with the i m, f, and world bank. tell us that seem to be the the end of the truth. and reconciliation committee to me, i distinguish the truth and reconciliation commission from the negotiations that took place, it came to to henry and the t or c. it was very much like no. it focused on individuals. it, it brought individuals to the television stage for kind of it sure trial, a performance you only differences newer. move with the nuremberg whereas norm but was about crime and punishment. p r c was about crimes and forgiveness but, but the mother was the sex in the new responsibilities individual responsible to

the did a completely different process to place a company in the negotiate in the negotiation to captain park with the commission that the problem is political and we have to solve this political problem. and the political problem is the exclusion of particular groups, permanent exclusion of particular groups, in this case, the vast majority. so the natural thing would have been within if and if an independent of some nation state was to be born, it will then be seen as a state of the black majority with, with the whites. the indians, the colored has so many national minorities, but that's not the route that south africa took. it took a different route. it went, if you look at, if you follow the language of the n c, it began as a language of black majority. but then it went on to speak of and non

racial democracy. the south africa moment was the recognition by the n p, a movement that you are not fighting while you are fighting white power. you are not just fighting a power type. you had to come up with an alternative to a party. it was not just about turning the world upside down. it was about creating a new was. now apartheid had created 2 political categories based on which 2 people. one was raised, the other was tripe. what the anti porter movement managed to do was to deeply size race was not to be fine political participation based on race. but it has been unable to be politicized type. and he does continue to accept the tribe as custom and tribal it and franchise meant. and this one franchise meant as,

as customary law. so if you look at south africa from 994, the white violence we have seen in south africa, the zeno for violence is not again to white. it's not against race, it's again the tribal stranger. it's against the african who could come from outside the borders of south africa, which, which i'll give you suits. so be people in power, but across africa and as a team in, in your book, you appear to be saying that n g o's basically govern the global south out of these ideas of posted dependent settlement. where the engineers do the work on the ground. and the african leaders attend submit to the top so so increasingly we have had

aid froze in 2 different directions. there is the, there is the aid or the financial clothes that come to an african economy as a whole african political leaderships. and then there are financial flows which come to engineers, international n, g o z, a local, then jeers. and so you have a form of governance, which is not accountable at all because it least the formal political leadership of africa is supposed to be accountable to the people. but the engineers have no accountability to the people they serve. the people they serve are recipients. they are consumers. the accountability is to where the funds from the accountability is to the donors outside. so it's a totally empty democratic models that we have in the n g o start. so in the book we have the i, c, c, not fit for purpose where my album here is of course when saddam was

a bigger place we have. and joe's, as you say, dealing with a kind of new colonialism, a form of power. you, you cite that the oslo accords as regards palestine. we're sell out by yasser arafat in, in your view. should palestinians not actually be that surprised at some ballast indian activists are about settler violence going on today and the head of christmas in the holy land in a, in a few weeks time. ah, they shouldn't be that surprised given what you write about as regards the path taken by the colonial settling of jews in israel. i mean, i think there are different tendencies within within israel and israel palestine a, there is the center violence which is about continuing the not

about getting radio for palestinians a from israel proper, but also from the west bank as much as possible. the problem of settler violence is that it does not have to go. it does not, it does not have an idea of what to do with the balance unless it's except for a genocide it has no, it wants to extend the physical territory of formerly, you know, it is around the historical lands of its own imagination. but what to do with the people on the land, it doesn't have a project to laid up before before the world. because obviously, the israeli government would completely deny any charge of the possibility of genocide as with those arming the israeli government, the bombs, syria and,

and as it tries to climb down on the settlers are going to these really government just find the on political violence. tell me about how you see it as how you see it as a dialectic for both reform and what exactly it can be useful, something that obviously people empower desperately, fear any kind of political violence. what role does it play? but unlike criminal environments and what political violence tells us is that there are addressed grievances and the challenge is to identify what these grievances are in the case of today, in most cases, the unaddressed grievance is exclusions exclusion from the political community or inclusion on the very an equal basis of the palestinians in the west bank are excluded palestinians in gover,

exclude palestinians in side. israel are included in a one state, but on the very, i mean basis to reason for political violence. so it challenges us to think of a new political form, which is not based on the claim to be a nation. a nation is a cultural construct. state is a political construct. what we need is to separate the 2. so as to make it possible for people or different cultures, different belonging to live in the same territory, you can be an immigrant what you don't get me as an immigrant comes in except for an existing political structure. a settler comes in and wants to create his own state structure. so this is, this is the challenge. professor natalie,

thank you. thank you so much. that's over the show will be back on saturday, just speak to the lawyer of native american political prisoner, leonard peltier. as well as another legendary voice san antonio struggles, terry. golly, until then keep in touch my social media and let us know if you think colonial practices are still being used to divide us ah, ah ah, ah

with a happy hey. then we had said i had a name that does not allow them to get valued outside of that mechanic. and by then coffee says she has an odd at a by then is a shift of on a 1st going on. what awesome. so it mud mud. so it,

it almost, it was if you had the movable modem, a mechanic to so that gives healthy health, most of the book, but it shows a lot a symbol. so this is what i can look at. what else and how the, what a philosophy on how to do like a a humanity, maybe maybe with can . oh,

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