in pakistan on afghanistan, we ask legendary, also an active historically. if despite nature nation media is syria, nature defeat in the so called graveyard of empires could actually foretell a brighter future. and 45 years to the day, legendary native american actress leonard peltier, woke up in the us after being extracted from canada. we speak to his lawyer is for, for justice with kim kardashian about the legacy of co until pro and if anything can sway president biden, to release the man known as the u. s. a's longest serving political prisoner all the same, all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, the british press is focused on an afghanistan whistleblower who is reveal details of the case arguably disastrous withdrawal from the country. but would establishment journalists have been caught less off. god in the 1st place, if they'd spend more time focusing on the revelations, publicized by the world's most famous journalist julian sans, currently facing a trial in london with the future of free speech itself hanging in the balance. one man who has been a champion of the we helix founder and a vital and prescient voice on afghanistan,

is the author an activist target. his new book, the 40 year war in afghanistan, a chronicle foretold, is out now he joins me from london. thank you. so much charge we're coming back on . i mean, a lot of people say that the julian sounds trial is about free speech. if you read your book and i know you, you name check him in here, you might think it's not really about free speech. it's about a slow motion assassination, given that most journalists ignored the kinds of things you are writing. over the past decade or more, about why british troops would die for nothing in afghanistan. a lot of my critique, all 3 of from the storm, more including a debate with les right, government minister, or no fritz, which is in the book. these were all published to la guardia. and as we were cutting a book together, number of people said, it is amazing. the gotten used to publish old and i was myself surprised battles under ellen ross, bridget. and you can make greatest sources. am of course i do feed aloud thinking

about it long term, but he was probably the most objective and it could guardian has had certainly since 2nd world war, if you compare that to the guardian today, quite honestly, it's a huge, huge difference and it's ironic that lee left ember guardian. what was left with the boat? that's fine. i understand it. well, we will go watch our interview with alan rus for gera. yeah, she fired me many years ago. we do go. i just say it's rarely. but do you think, i mean, the reason why most journalists have not been more obsessed by the assange case, which clearly across the global south and, and increasingly, many people in nato countries are more and more concerned about his, the allegations of his torture and his continuing incarceration more journalists on

bother because they wouldn't use the freedom of the press that they were given. in any case when it comes to was like afghan is done. it's absolutely true. afghanistan was designated as the good by the western governments and their journalists stick appendages. and so that's how they covered it. you know the stories which made it one, not the stories revealed by children assigned to and we keep leaks in 2010. the afghan papers published by weekly show the war was just completely unwinnable. and it was useful for other things. for me using afghanistan as a base to cleaner, filthy money for increasing the grant trade. but it has nothing to do with freedom or democracy or women's racial or anything like that,

as we now discover after the 20 year occupation collapsed in 7 days. i mean, that showed it didn't even have mass support, which they always used to compare a well, if they were so happy, why did the puppet army of 300000 guns collapse within a week refused to fight it? so it's, it's been a disaster story. and i've been writing about it for, you know, 40 years because the, the american occupation and the nato occupation, so called operation enduring freedom in june for 20 years. prior to that, there was a soviet how to patient from 9 to december, 979. and in between the 2, there was fierce faction fighting between these ma main fractions which destroyed gobble, gobble was not destroyed by the russians. campbell was bombed and destroyed,

or large chunks of it by different fractions. who had fought with the us against the russians fighting each other and then sent back to point where the pakistan me into services intelligence and the pakistani miller create a set of italian bond and propelled them into our with the complete back of the united states. the agencies at state department went to go central, the white house usa, moscow, occupation of afghanistan, but also draw us to the idea that actually what we think about us funding that would lead to $911.00 happened before the russian invasion of afghanistan. jimmy carter sat in dream events that would lead up to 911 absolutely right base wont. and from this time is in 1978 the

show of iran, or the pressure on the government. the republican government in afghanistan, led by mamma and said, there are too many commies in your army and air force, the c. i provided the shot with less. these were did over the news, don't act on it. when this news was leaked in signed lee and air force officers belonging to the true fractions of the people democratic party i missed on met and they organized me good. i suppose. describe as a preemptive coal. and that preemptive go, in april 1978 was portrayed as a revolution. they tried to make it into a revolution. but they miscalculated on a number of things. and they had promised,

but now honest on the democratic, in every sense of the word way. if that was the case and you were really going to do that, which would've been a huge step forward. the 1st thing you need to do was to come go, constituent assembly and decide on a new constitution. because the last constitution, serious constitution in their plan is 19 prepared in 1918, 1919 biking a minor a was a pretty decent constitution to be honest. and his wife clean sarabia had put into it the right to women to vote. so had that constitution been karen's crew of this town would have been the 1st country to give women the right to vote. all women before britain before the united states, before any european country. so i was startled by the british. so the 1st

government to come in since amanda, with progressive aims and pretensions was to p d. b, a government after the bay length is preemptive, going $78.00, had a right that on institution, improved it. some under constituent assembly campaign for elections or knows they might have one, i don't know with order, but not doing back affected me operating and very young democratic way industrialized ordinary people, including in the countryside certain b. and that is when carter and his national security advisor, he said, were preparing a bag trap. and they started army groups in afghanistan to all the states. and that is when they hired, been lucky that in the british journalists and american journalists can be forgiven

for not understanding the slightest idea about african history and how britain destroyed women's rights. were there obviously people in the biden cabinet and around biden's people, maybe people here going women's rights, women's rights. and you say in the book just bringing up a bit forward it rape. widespread rape in discriminative in, in killing at child killing. this accompanied the ice f obligate occupation of afghanistan. yeah, it, it, and you know, they have not provided any figures on when i'm in this allegation in public on television radio, in writing they denied they asked me for my group, where's your group? i sort of proof is reports coming out on this from women's organization, some of which one in particular is not keen on the occupation. and they've told me that i actually rave when down during that time period. and it is now up again

because the northern alliance with whom the west was in cahoots, or no better marginally, even worse on this question than ever. so their allies carried on the other question i raised is, could you give us statistics on the number of brothels that are being set up in afghanistan to accommodate the nato armies and help operation enduring freedom mean harmony, sex workers have to endure working in brussels in the planet storm, because the reports from bosnia during the you, gustavo, and other places this point horrendous, never did. we get a single reply. and this is a story which really needs to be investigated now that it's possible to,

to find out what happened and where are those even in the past few days, the 10s of indians are killed by a drone strike. in the end of the occupation, the bending it says, no one will be prosecuted is a in the book that and i suppose one could say that what you were talking about there was facilitated by the international monetary fund in a way, indirectly. what do you mean by the i m f being partly responsible for the creation of what would become the 11th was political islam. when you create a system in which you take away the safety net from large numbers of people in grade level. so many of them in muslim countries, but not exclusive want to you leave them with you, leave them with nothing. you create an emptiness in these societies. and in situations like this, really just pretty just going to be very effective saying no one does anything for us, only god. the only way you will do it is by doing a, b, c, p, e,

or whatever their motive sign, whoever, their enemies all the time. and so this entire economic policy framed by the global economic institutions, mtv, the scale, you know, i mean, emptied and gave them no control. they didn't know want to do. and the action is, is, is virtually the same. of course, in some countries like pakistan, these groups were deliberately created from about in order to fight against the soviet union, or in order to do what the united states want to be done in relation to setting up with government, etc, etc. but in most cases, the traction to small minorities asked to be said on how the star is linked to the economic crisis. and it's got increase when nothing is done with

them. they live in miserable conditions, no health system functioning system, no functioning education system. and at the same time, they see an elite in their concrete belonging to the same religion getting richer and reach, reach, having living in a bubble world. but within this bubble world, private jets fly them from one part of the country to the other. that shouldn't go to top schools, which exist in that country, but i'm not available to and i will well, main majority of the population. i sometimes wonder how come the it isn't larger, this tag, i'll stop you there more from time after this break plus is time running out from the native american known as the u. s. as long as serving political prisoner leonard peltier, we ask his lawyer about his chances for freedom and the dog legacy of the f. b, i is counted democracy activities. well as a more can we have about to have going on the ground.

ah, ah, my view more broadly is that genocide has taken place far more than anyone acknowledges. it takes place frequently. it has taken place in virtually every country in the world. so why does it come to be called in? well, there's a political will on mobilization if you remember, wanda, nobody initially wanted to him or may knew it just i was taking place. nobody wanted to call it that. eventually that label came to take place, but not at the time when events were unfolding about political is asian is if you say it's genocide, is suggest that you need to do something. join me every 1st day on the alex simon. sure. i'll be speaking together in the world of

politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. ah, failure to allow markets to reflect to market forces has resulted in a bifurcation in the economy where the most corrupt are rewarded for committing crimes. jamie morgan being a prime example. and if you have morals or ethics you're penalized. if you're not out there still, it's dealing alluding. then you're going to be almost not to america today. it's a sad bug, a back. i'm still a retired alley. legendary activists in author of the 40 year war in afghanistan, the chronicle foretold. right now, there are definitely twin tonight, forces, gustavo, or of course,

leader than everybody here appointing people who supported was after 911 like afghanistan. you draw contradictions in this book between the fact that tony blair believed in nation building and at the same time was destroying britain at home, in the sense of privatizing of the nation itself. just tell me about the destroying social democrat democracy norms from 945 onwards here at home, while trying to create them abroad. well, it's the mere liberal consensus created by fracture and very good. i mean there was a real continue to you. hatcher and major blair brown cameron, all of them affectively hanging on to that consensus. and blair and mendelson actually boasting, willing to privatize more than sheet. well, that's your philosophy. how can you build an e country anywhere in the world except by handing over money to

unscrupulous grot, local politicians and landlords, and opened into some grant? and of course, they make the money themselves. they've built mansions, programs out, or you know, action. it would have taken $5000.00 to build a small house with 2 or 3 bedrooms of mount breaks to house, an afghan fan. why didn't they do it? they didn't do it because of the idea of doing it. had been outlawed and banished, more or less in the west. so the cost of the was, is estimated it trillion trillions incorrectly and they couldn't build anything. we all agree well of, finally just on, i mean, julian assange famously said that the afghan war was a recycling mechanism of a taxpayer dollars into the arms companies in merced. reason all those companies

lobbied for it on k street and their profit. you, you wish to say that it is optimism in the sense that you seem to suggest it for a young population. average 18 in a 40000000 population country. you believe it around pakistan, china and russia will replace the nature powers. i mean, why are you so confident that the nato nations won't again, go back into afghanistan? as you say, it didn't remind you so much of vietnam, the defeat this here, it was the, the, my, the in khartoum. it reminded you in the 19th century, i am very provoked, bullish. the thing is this, that the world has changed. china who buys a very big place now in any serious to clinical thinking in that region. the 1st concrete, persistent by the new taliban leaders was trying. but we still haven't had a detail the sound talks, but it's fairly clear that 2 things are discussed and that everyone is done

shouldn't be used as a base by j groups against any concrete. and secondly, discussions on coming into china, belton roads initiative and having some infrastructure developed. and that, that when the war against have gone is done, started iran back later because of its own rivalries with the bomb and herod was a whole spoke of opposition to the taliban. government compare it with this time. as the taliban entered harris, there was no opposition. so the indications are and more than 2 patients, we know that since 2015, 2016. the iranians have been in discussions with them. without any doubt, they are suggesting that the guns go for a constitution, they would suggest the iranian model is better. well, that is better than nothing. i will ground you back and,

and they are suggesting backs between the 2 countries and no more battles and rivalries, etc. so it's the changed world and iran's big change row. they have no illusions now the united states at long last china's change pro. russia is not backing into the last phase, didn't back the what was happening in it. so this big shift i think offers some of i'm not too old for that. you know, there's a gloomy sight to me, but the i am more than i've been for some time tag. i thank you. ah, well another street fighting man known around the world is the u. s. s. longest serving political prisoner de facto leonard peltier champion by everyone from

nelson mandela to some commandant mark was to rage against the machine 45 years ago . today. the legendary native american activists woke up in the u. s. after being extradited from canada on now withdrawn testimony linking him to the murder of 2 f . b i. agents is arguably discredited. trial is now viewed in the context of the api, wider co op pro initiative the name to stifle dissent and protests within the united states. now 77 and in ill health. peltier is looking to you as president and mass incarceration architect joe biden, for clemency and penalties. lawyer kevin chop joins me now from nashville, tennessee, as you'd say, judge a judge sharp, thank you so much for going on before i get into this. and i would advise people to look up his case on the internet. if people don't know, leonard peltier is a how is the health of leonard peltier? well, you know, leonard, ac is 77 years old. he has multiple health issues. on top of that, you've got raging, covered throughout the bureau, prison system, it's,

it is really touching, go with leonard's health, and he's got some serious issues that, that really cannot be dealt with within the bureau. prison system. we need to get in the you are appointed a federal judge by bama embargo obama. he couldn't, free peltier is m f p i direct was james comi, aquiner amos f b i, director bill clinton couldn't under louis free was the f b i, director than except now it's all jane got biden's own interior secretary, deb holland, who said before appointed her employment that your client should be freed. surely he can be free now. right, well, i want to go back, you know, could they have fried him? they could, they didn't have the political will to do it. we know what you said at the top of the show. this is all a whole loper from the hoover s b i and the co intel pro f b i. that doesn't exist except to the extent that you've still got leonard peltier

in prison. you need to get lenard out for all of the reasons that had to do with his now completely discredited trial and expedition from canada. but you really also the government needs to do this so that they can break from that old coover f b i, you know what you're saying would be completely denied. i know you're a fool, the federal judgement denied by the f b i a by the, i don't know the supreme court. what are you talking about a political trial justice in your country is not political as the whole point. well, well, look, even even the u. s. attorney that prosecuted the case now says they don't know who shot these agents. they do know it wasn't leonard peltier. they know that watch and so, you know, changed reynolds. it was the u. s. attorney on the case reported by appointed by jimmy carter, came out with a letter in july to president by that says it is time to release leonard peltier.

that's the current or the, or the former us attorney. on the case. i mean, penalty is a convicted of killing jack cola ronald williams to lie for sentences. i know the witnesses have withdrawn their claims at that time, ballistics forensics are all and you, you maintain the vindicating him, we will actually, um, since people may know some of the case of killing the murder of these 2 f, b i, agents is some of the affidavits were withdrawn because they were kind of tortured by the f. b i. the witnesses tied to chairs. the u. s. government does not claim anymore that he shot these ages. they don't know who killed the agent. and his co defendants were acquitted based on self defense, what the government ended up doing. once it was discovered that they had sculpt, tory ballistics evidence, that they did not turn over. he was originally convicted of shooting to agent. then it was determined or revealed that they had exculpatory ballistics evidence. once

that came out, you could no longer say that leonard peltier shot, anybody because they knew that he had. and so they changed their theory to one of the aiding and abetting. so then the question becomes, who did the aided a bet because his co defendants were acquitted based on self defense. so when the assistant us attorney who tried the case was asked by steve crawford 60 minutes, who did the the bed. he said, i don't know, maybe himself. well, that's legally possible. there was no crime. it's co defendants were quoted based on self defense. and you cannot aid and abet yourself. and i know, well, i suspect he was thought he was being cute and funny and flip it with that answer. but this is somebody's life. this is a criminal justice system in this country that has to mean we have a constitution that has to mean something. an f 40 for years for aiding and

abetting himself. though he didn't shoot the gun that the kill you correctly. i am legally impossible to aid and abet yourself. you either did it or you didn't do it . they know he did do it, which is why i never know which is why this goes back to co intel pro, as you're saying, because it's, it's a case that means something, it's symbolic, that's your contention. how would you explain to christopher ray, who actually said to the senate judiciary committee in march the f b, i is not systematically racist. i raised some eyebrows given the f. b. i involvement or accusations about involvement in assassinations of black leaders. obviously, how would you explain to christopher ray, the head of the f b i who presumably will be telling biden about whether to release your client. what co until pro even was. well it's, it's back to where we were before, which is the government needs this as much as leonard peltier needs to go home and spend the remaining days of his life, which are probably not many back at the,

at the, at his chippewa reservation in north dakota but the government needs this because there is no question that co intel pro exists that there is no question that co entail pro, systematically violated the rights of us system. scientists. nobody questions anymore. of course had happen. what we question now, and what the f b i to look at the federal government needs to look at is does that still exists? and if it doesn't, well then let's break from that. you've still got a prisoner there. there are multiple prisoners though, who were victims of that, you still have one in prison. we now the violations that happen. we now know the threats and the intimidation against witnesses to testify against him. we now know that ballistics test proving he didn't shoot anyone were with hell. we now know that there was a racist jure admitted prejudice jerk who stayed on the jury. we know all those

thing, all constitutional violations, less in this and let him go ha, and try it. finally, find the very, very briefly, what will it mean as regards the excepting the history of genocide, of native american peoples in the americas. if he does die in prison and if he could, he could get a plea deal, but he refuses to do a plea deal he wants clemency rather than to play deal. what would it mean? we took a believe he'll come to think of it. well, he didn't commit it, he's never going to admit that he crept, committed a crime. he did not commit. if he was going to do that, he wouldn't spent the last 45 years in prison. what it means up to release leonard peltier is that we can kind, we can finally start to deal with the issues of our tortured relationship with the native american community. what they need to do is say, let's release leonard, let's admit the mistakes of the past. let's start to try and he'll. ready that relationship. jessica cha,

thank you. thank you. that's ever the show will be back on monday when we speak to a man detained for 14 years at the usa de facto infamous torture camp in occupied cuba. one time a seal open today, despite vows from washington to shut it down, that you'll then keep in touch my social media and get in touch to let us know if you think biden should run clemency to leonard peltier. ah, oil and gas manufacturing, electricity, telecom dies leticia. all of them now have t type of infrastructure connected to the internet. so clearly realizing there's disruptive potential so that those countries can't ignore it because it threatens national security issue. but if we take the nato e u countries, virtually all of them subscribed to certain doctrines and maintains selling but

task forces. they are a cyber army on behalf of a country that's their job. with a thousands, runny and sent for london against the raft of new onto cope admissions. daily infections in the u. k. reportedly reach and time for the british supreme court rules. it was unlawful to drop on inquiry into the relation torture of 14 suspected oil remembered by british soldiers. one of them told us what he had to endure. this is the constant weight, noise, that commandment trickle. we are free and we were denied. actually, we all show.