ah, i mentioned retention. you're watching going underground. 70 years since the u. s. civil rights congress presented the we charge genocide, paper accusing the united states government of mass killing to the united nations coming up in the show. a chronicle foretold 24 hours ahead of an urgent organisation of his lamp cooperation meeting in pakistan on afghanistan, we ask legendary author, inactive historic ali. if, despite nato nation media hysteria, nature defeat in the circled graveyard of empires could actually foretell a brighter future. and 45 years to the day, legendary native american actress leonard peltier, woke up in the us after being extradited from canada. we speak to his lawyer who is fought for justice with kim kardashian about the legacy of co until pro and if anything can sway president biden, to release the man known as the essays, longest serving political prisoner, all of them all coming up in today's going underground but 1st,

the british press is focused on an afghanistan whistleblower who is reveal details of the case arguably disastrous withdrawal from the country. but would establishment journalists have been caught less off god in the 1st place if they'd spend more time focusing on the revelations publicised by the world's most famous journalists, julian hassan sharpie. facing a trial in london with the future of free speech itself hanging in the balance, one man who has been a champion of the week he likes founder and a vital, impressive voice on afghanistan. is the author an activist target. his new book, the 40 year war in afghanistan and chronicle foretold, is out now, and he joins me from london. thank you so much. shara, coming back on, i mean, do a lot of people say that the julian sounds trial is about free speech. if you read your book and i know you, you name, check him in here, you might think it's not really about free speech. it's a, by the slow motion assassination, given that most journalists ignored the kinds of things you are writing. over the past decade or more about why british troops would die for nothing in afghanistan.

a lot of my critique of the from the storm war, including a debate with blair, right government minister of foreign office, which is in the book. these are all published to la guardia and as we look at in the book together, number of people said it is amazing. the gotten used to publish old stuff and i was myself surprised, but that was on ellen, ross bridger. and you can make purchases him of course, but i do feel allowed thinking about it long term that he was probably the most objective. and it guardian has had certainly since 2nd one war, if you compare that to the guardian today, quite honest is a huge, huge difference. and it's ironic that the left in the guardian, what was left was the boat to as fine i. and is that it? well, people go watch our interview with alan ross per genera. i actually fired me many

years ago. we do, i just say it's read it, but do you think, i mean, the reason why most journalists have not been more obsessed by the assange case, which clearly across the global south and, and increasingly, many people in nato countries are more and more concerned about his that the allegations of his torture and his continuing incarceration more journalists on bother because they wouldn't use the freedom of the press that they were given. in any case when it comes to was like f canister, it's absolutely true or friendly. stan was designated as the good or by the western governments and where journalists stick appendages. and so that's how they covered it. you know, the stories which made it were not the stories revealed by, you know, sergeant re key beaks in 2010. this published,

bi weekly show that the war was just completely unwinnable. and it was useful for other things. for me using afghanistan as a base to play in filthy money for increasing the growth trade. but it has nothing to do with freedom or democracy or women's liberation, or anything like that, as we now discover after the 20 year occupation collab students. and they, i mean, that show didn't even have math support, which they always used to compare a well, if they were so happy, why did the army of 300000 guns collapse within a week refused to fight? so it's, it's been a disaster story and i've been writing about it for, for, you know,

40 years because the, the american occupation and the nato occupation, so called operation enduring freedom in june for 20 years. prior to that, there was a soviet hold to patient from 9 to december, 979. and in between the 2, there was a fierce faction. fighting between these ma main factions which destroyed a gobble. gobble was not destroyed by the russians. campbell was bombed and destroyed, or large chunks of it by different fractions who had fought with us against the russians fighting each other. and at that point, they focused on me into services, intelligence and the pakistani miller create a set of taliban and propelled them into the complete back of the united states, the agencies state, department, pentagon,

et cetera. the white usa usa, moscow occupation of afghanistan. but also draw us to the idea that actually what we think about us funding that would lead to $911.00 happened before the russian invasion of afghanistan, jimmy carter set in drain the events that would lead up to 911. absolutely. right. basically, what happened in crime this time is in 1978 the shot of iran or the pressure on the government. the republican government in afghanistan led by and said to many commies in your army and air force, the see i provided the shop with lists. these were and did over to the news. don't act on it. when this news was leaked in signed, lee army and air force officers belonging to the true fractions of peoples

democratic party, i missed on met. and they organized me good, i suppose, described as a preemptive coal. and that preemptive co, in april 1978 was portrayed as a revolution. they tried to make it into a revolution. but they miscalculated on a number of things. and they had promised, but now of honest on the democratic, in every sense of the word way. if that was the case and you were really going to do that, which would have been a huge step forward. the 1st thing you need to do was to combo constituent assembly and decide on a new constitution. because the last constitution, serious constitution of random 19 banned in 19181919 biking a minor. it was

a pretty decent constitution to be honest. and his wife clean sarabia had put into it the right of women to vote. so had that constitution been karen's crew of con, is found, would have been the 1st country to give women the right to vote. all women before britain before the united states, before any european country. so that regime was toppled by the british. so the 1st government to come in sin samantha, with progressive age and pretensions was the p. d. b. a government after that go a bit length is preemptive, go and $78.00 had a right that constitution improved it. some under constituent assembly campaign for elections or knows they might have one. i don't know what it was not doing back affective me operating in

a very young democratic way. industrialized ordinary people, including in go the countryside, certain beach, and that is when carter and his national security advisor. he said we're preparing a bad track. and they started army groups in afghanistan to all the states. and that is when they hired, been locked in a british journalist and american journalists can be forgiven for not understanding the slightest idea about african history and how britain destroyed women's rights were there obviously, people in the biden cabinet and around biden's people, maybe people here going women's rights, women's rights. and you say in the book just bringing up a bit forward that rape widespread rape, a indiscriminate civilian killing at child killing. this accompanied the ice. f obligate occupation of afghanistan. yeah, he did. and you know,

they have not provided any figures on when i made this allegation in public on television radio, in writing, they denied they asked me for my pro, where's your pro? i say that proof is reports coming out from women's organization. some of which one in particular is not keen on the occupation. and they've told me that actually rape went down during that time period. and it is now up again because the northern alliance with whom the west was in cahoots, or no better marginally, even worse on this question than ever. so their allies carried on the other question i raised is, could you give us statistics on the number of brothels that are being set up in a tron is done to accommodate the nato armies and help operation enduring freedom

mean harmony, sex workers have to endure working in brussels in the planet stand because the reports from bosnia during the you, gustavo and other places is quite horrendous. never did. we get a single reply. and this is a story which really needs to be investigated. now that is awesome. all to, to find out what happened and where are those even in the past few days, the 10s of indians are killed by a drone strike. in the end of the occupation, the bending it says, no one will be prosecuted. you say in the book that and i suppose one could say that what you were talking about there was facilitated by the international monetary fund in a way, indirectly. what do you mean by the i m f being partly responsible for the creation and what would become 911. i 1st political islam, when you create a system in which you take away the safety net,

large numbers of people in political so many of them and most of them can increase, but not exclusive. want to leave them where you leave them with nothing. you create an emptiness in the societies and in situations like this for just preachers can be very effective, saying no one does anything for us on the god. and the only way you will do it is by doing a, b, c, p, whatever, their motive sign or whatever their enemies all the time. and so this entire economic policy framed by the global economic institutions, mtv, these can, you know, i mean, emptied and gave them no control they didn't know want to do. and the fact is, is, is virtually the same. of course, in some countries like pakistan, these groups are deliberately created from above in order to fight against the

soviet union or in order to do what the united states want to be done in relation to setting up our live government, etc, etc. but in most cases the traction do small minority as to be said, are these is linked to the economic crisis increase when nothing is done with them, they live in miserable conditions, no health system functioning of system, no functioning education system. and at the same time, they see an elite in their concrete is belonging to the same religion getting richer and reach, reach, having living in a bubble world. but within this bubble world, private jets fly them from one part of the country to the other. their children go to adopt schools which exist in that pre, but i'm not available to and i will well,

majority of the population. i sometimes wonder how come they. it is launches based tag. i'll stop you there more from time after this break plus is time running out for the native american known as the usa, longest serving political prisoner leonard peltier. we ask his lawyer about his chances for freedom and the dog legacy of the api. counted democracy activities. well, this is more and we haven't got to have going underground. ah ah, ah right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food. this is tracy and sugary and salty and addiction is not at the individual level. it's not individual well power,

and if we go on believing that will never change is obesity epidemic. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment. mm hm. what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate ah vogue a back. i'm silly, retarded golly, legendary activists, an author of the 40 year war in afghanistan, the chronicle foretold. right now, there are definitely, clint tonight, forces gesstavo or of course leader than they were body here, appointing people who supported the was after 911 like afghanistan. you, you draw contradictions in this book between the fact that tony blair, i believed in nation building at the same time, was destroying britain at home, in the sense of privatizing of the nation itself. just tell me about the destroying social democrat democracy norms from 1945 onwards here at home,

while trying to create them abroad. well, it's the mere liberal consensus created by fracture and regal. i mean there was a real continuance. hatcher and major blair brown cameron, all of them affectively hanging on to that consensus. and blair and mendelson actually boasting, willing to privatize more than sheet. well, that's your philosophy. how can you build in a country anywhere in the world except by handing over money to unscrupulous grot, local politicians and landlords, and hoping they'll do some good. and of course, they make the money themselves. they've built mansions for themselves, or, you know, option. it would have taken $5000.00 to build a small house with 2 or 3 bedrooms of mount breaks to house in afghan fan.

why didn't they do it? they didn't do it because of the idea of doing it. had been outlawed and banished, more or less in the west, it serves the cost of the wars is estimated it trillion trillions, ingredients but they couldn't build anything for the ordinary people. well of, finally, just on, i mean, julian assange famously said that the afghan war was a recycling mechanism of a taxpayer dollars into the arms companies in merced. reason all those companies lobbied for in on k street and their profit. you, you wish to say that it is optimism in the sense that you seem to suggest it a young population average age 18 in a 40000000 population country. you believe it around pakistan, china and russia will replace the nature powers. i mean, why are you so confident that the nato nations weren't again,

go back into afghanistan? as you say, it didn't remind you so much of vietnam the defeat this here. it was the mighty in khartoum. it reminded you in the 19th century i was being provoked. but the thing is that the world is changed. china who buys a very big place now in any serious political thinking in that region. the 1st concrete has been by the new taliban leaders was trying are we still haven't had a detail the sound of the talks, but it's fairly clear that 2 things are discussed and that everyone is on shouldn't be used as a base by j groups against any concrete and secondly, discussions on coming into china as building roads initiative and having some infrastructure developed. and that, that when the war against it's gone is done, started iran back nato because of its own rivalries with bomb. and

harry was a hot spot of opposition to the taliban government. compare it with this time. as the taliban entered harris, there was no opposition. so the indications are and more than implications. we know that since 20152016. the iranians have been in discussions with them. without any doubt. they are suggesting that the guns go for a constitution, they would suggest the iranian model is better. well, that is better than nothing. i will ground you back. and they are suggesting facts between the 2 countries and no more battles and rivalries, etc. so it's the changed world. and iran's big change row. they have no illusions now. i'm the united states at long last china's

change pro. russia is not backing into the last phase, didn't back the what was happening in it's gone. so this big shift i think offers some i'm not too full actually. you know, there's a gloomy sight to me, but the i am more than i for being tag. i thank you. well, another street fighting man known around the world is the u. s. s. longest serving political prisoner de facto leonard peltier champion by everyone from nelson mandela to some commandant mark was to rage against the machine 45 years ago. today . the legendary native american activist woke up in the u. s. after being extradited from canada on now withdrawn testimony linking him to the murder of 2 f . b i. agents is arguably discredited. trial is now viewed in the context of the api, wider, co enjoy pro initiative the name to stifle dissent and protests within the united

states. now $77.00 and in ill health peltier is looking to you as president and mass incarceration architect joe biden, for clemency than had built his lawyer. kevin chop joins me now from nashville, tennessee, as you'd say, judge a judge sharp, thank you so much for going on before i get into this. and i would advise people to look up his case on the internet. if people don't know, leonard peltier is, how is the health of leonard peltier? well, you know, leonard aisd is 77 years old. he has multiple health issues. on top of that, you've got raging, covered throughout the bureau, prison system. it's, it is really touching, go with leonard's health, and he's got some serious issues that, that really cannot be dealt with. what's in the bureau, prison system, we need to get in. now, you are appointed a federal judge by a bama embargo obama. he couldn't, free peltier is m f b i direct was james comi. quite a famous sci director of bill clinton couldn't under lewis free was the f b i,

director than except now it's all jane got biden's own interior secretary, deb holland, who said before a point to her employment that your client should be freed. surely he can be free now. right. well, i want to go back, you know, could they have freed him? they could, they didn't have the political will to do it. we know what you said at the top of the shower. this is all a whole loper from the hoover s b i and the co intel pro f b i. that doesn't exist except to the extent that you've still got leonard peltier in prison. you need to get lenard out for all of the reasons that had to do with his now completely discredited trial and expiration from canada. but you really also the government needs to do this so that they can break from that old coover f b i, you know what you're saying would be completely denied. i know you're a full, the federal judgement denied by the f b i a by the,

i don't know the supreme court. what are you talking about a political trial justice in your country is not political as the whole point. well, well, look, even even the u. s. attorney that prosecuted the case now says they don't know who shot these agents. they do know it wasn't leonard peltier. they know that watch and so you know, jane reynolds, it was the u. s. attorney on the case reported by appointed by jimmy carter, came out with a letter in july to president by that says it is time to release leonard peltier. that's the current or the, or the former us attorney. on the case. i mean penalty a convicted of killing jack cola ronald williams to lie 1st said, it says i know the witnesses have withdrawn their claims at that time, ballistics forensics are all and you, you maintain the vindicating him, we will actually, um,

since people may know some of the case of killing the murder of these 2 f. b i agents is some of the affidavits were withdrawn because they were kind of tortured by the f. b. i. the witnesses tied to chairs. the u. s. government does not claim anymore that he shot these ages. they don't know who killed the agent, and his co defendants were acquitted based on self defense, what the government ended up doing. once it was discovered that they had sculpt, tory ballistics evidence that they did not turn over. he was originally convicted of shooting to agent, then it was determined or revealed that they had exculpatory ballistics evidence. once that came out, you could no longer say that leonard peltier shot, anybody because they knew that he had. and so they changed their theory to one of the aiding and abetting. so then the question becomes, who did the a did a bet because his co defendants were acquitted based on self defense. so when the

assistant us attorney who tried the case was asked by steve cross at 60 minutes, who did the bet? he said, i don't know, maybe himself. well that the legally a possible. there was no crime. it's co defendants were quoted based on self defense. and you cannot aid and abet yourself. and i know, well, i suspect he was thought he was being cute and funny and flippant with that answer . but this is somebody's life. this is a criminal justice system in this country that has to mean we have a constitution that has to mean something an f 40 for years for aiding and abetting himself. though he didn't shoot the gun that kill you correctly. i mean, it's legally impossible to aid and abet yourself. you either did it or you didn't do it at. they know he didn't do it, which is why i never know which is why this goes back to co intel pro, as you're saying, because it's, it's a grace that means something. it's symbolic. if that's your contention, how would you explain to christopher ray,

who actually said to the senate judiciary committee in march the f b, i is not systematically racist. i raised some eyebrows given the f. b. i involvement or accusations about involvement in assassinations of black leaders. obviously, how do you explain to christopher ray, the head of the efie, i, who presumably will be telling biden about whether to release your client. what co until pro even was. well it's, it's back to where we were before, which is the government needs this as much as leonard peltier needs to go home and spend the remaining days of his life, which are probably not many back at the, at the up at his chippewa reservation in north dakota, but the government needs this because there is no question that co intel pro existed. there is no question that co intel pro systematically violated the rights of us system citizens. nobody questions anymore. of course it happened. what we question now, and what the f

b i to look at the federal government needs to look at is does that still exists? and if it doesn't, well then let's break from that. you've still got a prisoner there. there are multiple prisoners though, who were victims of that, you still have one in prison. we now the violations that happen. we now know the threats and the intimidation against witnesses to testify against him. we now know that ballistics test proving he didn't shoot anyone were with hell. we now know that there was a racist jure, admitted prejudiced jerk booth stayed on the jury. we know all those thing, all constitutional violations, less in this and let him go. ha, and dr. real with finally find the very, very briefly what will it mean as regards a accepting the history of genocide, of native american people's in the americas. if he does die in prison and if he could, he could get a plea deal, but he refuses to do

a plea deal. he wants clemency rather than a bleed deal. what would it mean if he took a believe he'll come to think of it? well, he didn't commit it, he's never going to admit that he cra, committed a crime. he did not commit if he was going to do that, he wouldn't spent the last 45 years in prison. what it means up to release leonard peltier is that we can kind, we can finally start to deal with the issues of our tortured relationship with the native american community. what they need to do is say, let's release leonard, let's admit the mistakes of the past. let's start to try and keep that relationship . just have a chance. thank you. thank you. that's ever the show will be back on monday when we speak to a man detained for 14 years of the you as a defacto infamous torture camp in occupied cuba one panama seal open. today, despite vows from washington, shut it down until then even just my social media and get in touch to let us know if you think biden should drug clemency to leonard peltier.

ah, scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. can we distinguish the real science from the one being imposed upon us? we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in finding information, finding scientific evidence, and discredit, even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals. large corporations are challenged strongly by scientific evidence if you're emotionally invested and free markets, them climate change is a serious emotional threat because dealing with that means we have to change our approach to business industries are on the war bond attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science fighting science. that's how ignorant is manufactured, their attention only seeking to the rail science rolling using science

against itself. ah, [000:00:00;00] with thousands rally in central london against a raft of new anti covered measures as daily infections in the u. k. reportedly reaching all time high, the british supreme court rules it was unlawful to drop an inquiry into the alleged torture of 14 suspected irie members by british soldiers. one of them told us what