i enjoyed. 6 that i fell out equal des slavery ah, ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i am peter lavelle, the bite ministration says it believes and diplomacy. well, now it has a chance to prove this. russia is presented to white raging proposals to recast and regulate its relations with the west, in general and nato. specifically, we are living in an historic moment. ah,

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess towards m u l. e. in budapest, he's a podcast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals, and in plymouth. we have patrick senningson. he is the editor and founder of 21st century wire dot com, or a gentleman. crosstalk rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want, and i would appreciate it. so what george in budapest, as i said in my introduction on the russian side, because there are sides. and this has presented a to wide ranging proposals to the united states and to, and to nato. what are they and why now? well, why now? i think it's just what has been going on in ukraine since 2014 has been a very serious from russia's perspective. because obviously there are a great, a cultural, linguistic, historical connections between russia and ukraine. but more seriously, the more that nato has embedded itself into your brain,

the more russians feel very, very anxious about. they chose ultimate intentions here. and so what russia has done with these 2 documents is gone back to the helsinki final act of $975.00, and it's gone back to the $997.00 nato russia foundation document and said, look how the security of europe is indivisible. is it in black and white in the helsinki final act, which means that no country group of countries can enhance the own security at the expense of someone else's security. and so nato that says, well, we can do whatever we like. we can expand wherever we want. we can

allow the entry of any country that we feel like because it's in our charter, that is something, you know, that is a unilateral step and it's something that is clearly threatening to russia. and so what russia saying, ok, now we say, well you to pledge that you will not expand any further, you know, you will not invite, didn't you members the model, you will not do anything that threatens our security. you're not going to conduct military exercises neighboring countries, you know, going to set up military bases in the neighboring countries. and then, you know, we're not asking for that when i'm saying that, you know, we want to set up military basis elsewhere. we conduct military exercise was then we can then have a mutually respectfully, mutually respectful security agreement. well,

extremely well said and those are the 2 points to patrick. this is on the basis, you know, what was at the time in 1975. the helsinki final act was basically sending the terms and conditions of interaction here. now the cold war is come to an end, but it's a very good anchor to move forward here and what it is is and then well add one thing to george and mention the russians. they proposed these 2 documents and they want in return something in writing because that's something that's been absent since the end of the cold war, the nato in the united states, they must sign a lease. this is preliminary there, the russians have kicked it to their court and say, know how to, how you going to react. because the way george explain it seems eminently reasonable. we've been here before, presumably the cold war was much more threatening. so, i mean, this is a good opening gambit now, though we haven't really got a very clear answer. maybe it's early days. maybe we'll get something at the end of

next week. your thoughts? yeah, i think this is a smart move on the part of, of moscow there. effectively setting a new course or trying to reset the situation diplomatically and in a really an attempt to halt this kind of endless sabre rattling and what might be viewed as provocations by nato, from the russian side. and a lot of hyperbolic language, we've just seen an endless amount of this since 2014. but it's really also to see if nato can also live up to its own self image as a defensive alliance. and so it's really reviewing this whole situation and trying to get back to some point where you can have some decent, a bilateral negotiations between these 2 world powers essentially. but it does, it is it's making russia of predictable, normative power. and i think that's really important to point out because russia's always cast is some sort of irrational actor by the west, by western diplomats,

by media. and it's really casting them as a normative power. and i think that's really important because europe likes predictability. markets like predictability and rushes incredibly predictable. they've done this at every turn, inter situation, they have done a move that the set reset the situation and allows for diplomacy. the question is, will the west reciprocate so charge. if i don't go to you here in budapest, i mean i read the to document. it's a, it's, it's, it's a, it's very legal like, but it's extremely familiar as well. i mean, and the reason why i'm asking this question is because we keep hearing no country has a right to veto. another country's a desire to join the military alliance. now that is an international law, and as far as i know, there's really no historical precedent to it is. well, i mean this is kind of made out of hold off. ok, but that's,

that's the manager that we get out of stilton bird and brussels. your thought, yeah, that's a very good point because essentially what they to say, no, russia has no right to veto anything at all that we do. we can go anywhere, do anything that we want to know right now. but we, on the other hand, have a right to veto anything that russia does. so we have a right to tell russia where it can conduct its military exercises. well, we don't think that you should conduct military exercises anywhere close to the green border. we don't think that should deploy any a month, but they can't tell us what to do. so when you consider these are what russia is saying it, everything that is insisting on in the street is that pertains to nato's expansion. isn't it? is nato that he's moving. every slip is nato,

that has extended its reach far beyond what was envisaged when it signed the 997 foundation document with russia. and so it is extraordinary that the media with parents, whatever nato and us officials of them are just completely outrageous. well, why is it, how courageous for russia to insist on the security guarantees is to say, but they are the countries that are our neighbors. the countries with which we were partners in the former usaa these country should not be the base for nato activities ever. but it's the natal think he's now so ingrained on policy makers of media by that they think that there's something really outrageous rush asking for some, some kind of a security for themselves. you know, i think the rush is accused of building up spirit and then phones. but in fact,

it's made out it's creating a sphere influence at the expense of russia and insecurity. that argument is never presented in western media. yeah, it is. and it's, it's amazing because if you go to the music security conference and all the talk of the last decade, it's been about collective security packs with both sides coming to the table to establish some level of balance. and now in the last, since 2014, that's not really happening in the west, it's using the u. s. is using the new credit ukraine as the sort of main, he's just to justify their expansion for saying it's russian aggression. i think this is a really important point in history because now vitamin put in the russian government are wanting to pull the west to the table to talk about specifics to talk about reality. what is the situation in crimea? visa v international law, and if you dig into these issues,

you'll see that it's not, it's not a polar opposite of how it's been characterized over the last 7 years by the us and its allies, the same with eastern ukraine. what happened in eastern ukraine? how did the situation begin? there is a lot of political details there, like lustration. the things that were encouraged by the u. s. and the u. s. backed political actors at the time that created their crisis, and russia did not invade crimea or sylvester pool. they were there already, and there was a, there was a transition to crimea was reunited with russia and been separated in 1954. so these nuances never get talked about. and so they think russia is in violation of all these international laws. and that justifies nato expansion. so if we come to a forum, if we come to a negotiation table, these details should come out. will they though, is this what the u. s. wants do they want to have that conversation?

i don't think they do. i don't think their allies do, they want to keep it in the realm of hyperbolic aggressive, to drive by comments and accusations. because there, you don't have to have, you know, you really don't have to abide by any international agreements or treaties. you just seem to be reacting to russian aggression. so i think this is a really important point. you know, george is the argument set out for present. and each country has its own security interest. they are, that is indivisible. but the reaction so far from western governments is that russian, russia, security is anything but indivisible. i mean, this is someone, one way street it's, it's very hypocritical, 40 seconds before we go to the break. it's either because it made those attitude and you know, they were us and the u. k. government and the rest of them attitude is russia, has no, the gentlemen here are the concerns of it. and therefore,

whenever russia does address, it's a security need, then that's just aggression and we have to defend ourselves against russian aggression. and so you know that, that's, that's the center or any, any russian demand security guarantees. is that something that we have to resist? because it aggression from russia. ok gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real noun. stay with our with

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herman diatra shaped bankers are those with dares sinks. we dare to ask ah, welcome to cross og. we're all things considered. i'm feed labelle. this is the home edition trim bungee were discussing some real news. ah. okay, baker. let's go back to you in plymouth. one of the interesting things is that what

we hear from the head of nato. seldom birth. is it almost default every other sentence. and he begins every paragraph and ends, every paragraph with nato as a defensive alliance. so can you explain to our viewers why a defensive alliance needs to expand? because i think the definition of defense is that you depend what you have. am i wrong? go ahead. well, that, that's the whole premise of, of nato is a defensive alliance. and it has been an offensive alliance in recent years. but if you, if you look at what's behind that, what is behind that change in, in, in orientation by nato is there's a lot of pressure, especially in the u. s. in britain to drive military defense sales for instance. so they need markets and they need situations where this can happen. and if you look at the amount of weapons that the u. s. has been pumping and military aid, they've been pumping into ukraine. this is effectively from the u. s. side. this is

corporate welfare. this is what john mccain's job was. while he was senator, was to look for opportunities and markets where they can channel a product in there that's paid for by the us taxpayer for all these defense contractors. now that job is taken over by senator tom cotton, marco rubio, and people like this. they've taken that torch. so there's that. plus there's this kind of nato's a having an existential crisis. we all know it, everyone's talking about it. even donald trump remarked on this in his own way in his own bull she way. he remarked on this during his presidency, so it is kind of an alliance. it's an organization that doesn't really, it's not attached to its original purpose at all. everybody kind of knows this, and i think it's, it's good that russia has gone for this reset right now. and that's going to really bring this into the light of day where you can have this proper discussion internationally. and then maybe the media might join in this discussion. you know, heaven forbid that they might actually weigh in some of the great commentators,

international relations and our mainstream media. but that's what's been missing. and this is if, if this isn't brought to a slow down or halt, then we're really facing the potential for a hot conflict in that somewhere down the road. and that's not anything that europe wants for sure. the u. s. enjoys the sabre rattling the arm sales, the posturing the politicians can do. but it's not really in europe interest at all . hopefully that's what comes to emerge with this. well, i'm not holding my breath unfortunately. george, me the way that western media and politicians frame this entire situation as a conflict between russia and ukraine. and if you look at these 2 documents, obviously ukraine has mentioned, but it's really that that's a focus pointed at the data point. these 2 documents, these 2 proposals are of a grand scale. i mean, it's something we haven't seen since 975. and,

and what means one of the most important things that needs to happen is that for western audiences, the understand that it needs to be refrained completely. this is an absolute central grad for nato nato's mission. and it has to expand or basically to shut down shop. and obviously from what patrick had to say, there's just too much money involved be or go ahead a lot of money. and of course, later comes accompanied with this massive propaganda machine. you know, you mentioned moments ago about, oh it's, it's a defensive alliance. so it keeps repeating this over and over again. and just as the media always repeat, well, nato is providing your grain with defensive weapons. you know, so everything is defensive. so when they provide miss styles, they are anti tank miss miss on a miss. it doesn't matter whether you launch it against a tank or do you launch it against the civilian population. but that's why,

because ultimately, you know, the public in nato countries really do not want to get into a war with russia. and so that's why they have to be bamboozled with all the talk about how nato is terribly frightened of imminent russian invasion. that is, why know me, journalists ever goes to ukraine and off the bus to them. say, are you really afraid of a russian invasion? i mean, is this something that you know is affecting your life? you think the russians are about to roll in? do you great tomorrow they don't think of course you gradients aren't afraid of that. but as far as policy makers go, as far as the media go, you have to gin up this idea that russia at any moment is of how to move it into your grade. and of course, that justifies all the military expenditures the justifies the hysteria. and it was, justifies nato, continually expanding or we have to expand because of russia. but the fact is that

it is nato. that seems to think that it somehow has a right to be in central asia. that is, or what we need to conduct the activities in central asia. we need to set up military bases in central asia. i always defense it. well, i know it doesn't take a genius to figure out what you may call to defend it, but somebody else does not see this defensive. so that's why they think you final acts. then security is indivisible. you can't just simply say, well, we say it's defensive, therefore it must be defensive. no, it's well depends on, well, who is it directed against? what do they do? they think that the deployment is defensive. if not, then, and other than that, it's not acceptable. you know, in patrick, i mean it's coming to a head right now. i mean, do these blink ins and the elements are these people look the caliber to understand the historic moment that we're at right now because this is the russians

are saying, you've gone far enough and we're not going to take it any longer. the line has been drawn, i mean, these people, serious enough to understand that i'm looking at the current foreign policy. yeah. go to the lack of a better term in or is led by people that i don't think have that sort of depth in the current administration or a recent usaa ministration for that matter. but there's also, you know, the u. s. is in a very tight spot right now because of the emergence of a military union in europe. that if that, if that becomes the sort of the lead defense force for europe, then that takes the u. s. ability to have its hand directly into the glove of europe for all things military. so there is a competition in the background, a little bit between nato and european military union in pasco. so that's, that's not good for washington because washington is always relied on nato to act

multilaterally without being seen to act directly. and so if you take away nato as a, as an instrument for u. s. international hedge or money, for instance, that's not good in european military union or an army, for instance, in the future. the u. s. will have to somehow negotiate with it rather than from inside it. and so this is a really important, so they're kind of in a bit of a competition in a bit of a race to maintain their influence and their foothold in their post world war 2 orientation in europe. so this is difficult for the u. s. and there, i think there is a little bit of panic setting in, in recent years, is finding a way to stay relevant, finding way to stay in there. no charge if, if washington and its allies reject these 2 documents. so, where do we go from there? because it seems to me that they are not taking this seriously. i think that blinded by their own ideology, i think they're blinded by the sense of them being morally superior,

which has nothing to do with international relations or international law. i mean, we're really in a quandary right now, but i don't think they understand the, the unstable situation that they have created. because russia is not going to surrender it's, it's national security full stop. yes, yes, i think so. and i think this goes together with the crisis in ukraine, which is what we were talking about at the beginning. but the russians are very concerned with nato converging ukraine into just one giant aircraft carrier with dumping this huge amount of military hardware trainers, especially everybody essentially trying to turn ukraine into a director of russia and russia. you know, sooner or later is simply going to act against regular, cannot allow essentially,

the very hostile, heavily on stays on its borders and which basically is just the pool would base for nato. and then russia will act. and i think that's why the situation is dangerous. and i think that's why it rushes for with these 2 treaties as well, you know, we need to de escalate what's going on in ukraine. as we've agreed. it's unlikely that the major above will do anything about it, which case, i think it was crisis and ukraine could certainly come to ahead sometime in the new year. and i think that will be a disaster where everyone will go around the west and will russia. but basically, russia cannot allow this to continue because this is, there is an existential right. the russian, it becomes, not. cynicism stinks, but i haven't because this has nothing really to do with nato, doesn't i'm sorry, with ukraine, doesn't ukraine is not really dental's not particularly concerned one way or

another. it's a ukraine is a cudgel in the problem is it's been built up in the u. s. media, this russian invasion that's meant to happen according to intelligent sources in january, both sides, both democrat and republican of kind of bought into this narrative. so that might hamper any efforts by biting ministration to want to be seen as the piece savior and come and do some interim deal. there's going to be pressure on from democrats, not to do that to be more aggressive. and you know what the republicans are. are aiming for on this. they want to see more intention ratchet it up. so because that's good for the military industrial complex. so it's a, it's not a good situation politically this week, the week administration that you have in the white house now is not good at all for this situation. so that's one thing that a lot of people should be very concerned about. you know, george, that we got one more minute here. joe joe biden desperately needs

a win somewhere. and this could be that even if he tries to deescalate, with the limited lo off pain thinkers around him, he's going to be or be crushed, or compromising. this is what is happen to american foreign policy. go ahead. yeah, that's, that's it. i mean, he basically could easily, anyone, you could just pick up a phone and say, look, you know, you've got to be realistic about understand geography. you know, a gambling, you know, you're playing with by, you know, you're planning with the future of your country. you know, work something out with people as a dumbass. you know what, as a modus vivendi with your giant neighbor, russia, and i will be happy with eisen is incapable of doing so. so this is a problem that actually has a relatively easy solution to problems that have difficult solutions. this one

isn't, but i think they buy isn't going to do so, and that's why i think the situation is going to escalate and the theory, right? i think he's going to have a bad outcome policies there, but the politics aren't and that that's one side. i want to think, my guess andy budapest want to think of, you know, watching us the next time. remember? oh, well it's showing wrong when all through just a sheep out disdain becomes the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

oh, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed? what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? or are you being led to somewhere? which direction what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. oil and gas, manufacturing, electricity, telecom guys,

quotations. all of them now have io t type of infrastructure connected to the internet for clarity, realizing this disruptive potential so that those countries cons, ignore it because it threatens national security issue. but if we take the nato n e u countries, virtually all of them subscribed to certain doctrines and maintains selling but task forces. they are a cyber army on behalf of a country that's their job. ah, working room or should never act. she popped in. she said, well, i'm getting ready to go shopping for christmas and we recently there was a good to buy another shooting another safe part of american life shattered by violence. the gunman was armed with an e r 15, semi automatic rifle. when the issue comes home, it's time to act. when we're filing on this issue, the other side wins. by default,

the lady that lived over there. i was walking one of the dogs, which is why do you wear again? were you scared with nothing they took it off it. i think the people need to take responsibility in their own and be prepared if those kinds of weapons were less available. we wouldn't have a lot of the shootings that we certainly wouldn't have. the number a desk a class he's involved in europe, his government's tough restrictions to come back, then you ram, come to kelly, buried on a current post. this is frances, on the whole path, with amazon over the ferns chink book to live race that under cut like when school was with the government, even adult thing, a new bill to force the company to charges customers more. and despite the.