rail oh, when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground oil and gas manufacturing, electricity, telecomm, guys potations all of them. now i a t type of infrastructure connected to the internet. so clearly realizing this disruptive potential so that those countries cons, ignore it because it threatens national security issue. but if we take them to you countries, virtually all of them subscribe to certain doctrines and maintains selling but task forces. they are a cyber army on behalf of a country that's their job. ah,

ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i am peter level, the bite ministration says it believes in diplomacy. well now it has a chance to prove this. russia is presented to white raging proposals to recast and regulate its relations with the west in general and nato. specifically, we are living in in this stuart moment. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess towards samuel leon, budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle, which can be on, on youtube and locals, and in plymouth. we have patrick senningson. he is the editor and founder of 21st century wire dot com, or a gentleman, cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i

would appreciate it. okay, so what georgia in budapest, as i said in my introduction of the russian side, because there are sides in this, has presented a 2 wide ranging proposals to the united states and to, and to nato. what are they and why now? why now? i think it's just what has been going on in ukraine since the 2014 has been a very serious from russia's perspective. because because obviously there are a great, a cultural, linguistic, historical connections between russia and ukraine. but more seriously, the more that nato has embedded itself into your brain, the more russians feel very, very anxious about how they chose ultimate intentions here. and so what russia has done with these 2 documents is gone back to

the helsinki final act of 975 and has gone back to the 997 nato russia foundation document and said, look how the security of europe is indivisible. is that in black and white in the helsinki final act, which means that no country group of countries can enhance the own security at the expense of someone else's security. as a nato that says, well, we can do whatever we like. we can expand wherever we want. we can allow the entry of any country that we see, like, because it's in our charter, that is something, you know, the is a unilateral step and is something that is clearly threatening to russia. and so what to russia saying, ok, now we say, well,

you to pledge that you will not let me expand any further. you know, you will not invite any new members in the model. you will not do anything that threatens our security. you're not going to conduct military exercises neighboring countries, you know, going to set up military bases in the neighboring countries. and then, you know, we're not asking for that when i'm saying that, you know, we want to military basis when we conduct military exercise was then we can then have a mutually respectfully, mutually respectful security agreement. well, extremely well said, and those are the 2 points to patrick. this is on the basis, you know, what was at the time in 1975. the helsinki final act was basically sending the terms and conditions of interaction here. now the cold war is come to an end, but it's

a very good anchor to move forward here and what it is is and then well add one thing to george and mention the russians. they proposed these 2 documents and they want in return something in writing because that's something that's been absent since the end of the cold war, the nato and the united states, they must sign a lease. this is preliminary, they're, the russians have kicked it to their court and say, know how to, how you going to react because we george explain, it seems imminently reasonable. we've been here before, presumably the cold war was a much more threatening. so, i mean, this is a good opening gambit now, though we haven't really got a very clear answer. it may be, it's early days. maybe we'll get something at the end of next week. your thoughts? yeah, i think this is a smart move on the part of, of moscow there. effectively setting a new course or trying to reset the situation diplomatically and in a really an attempt to halt this kind of endless sabre rattling and what might be

viewed as provocations by, by nato, from the russian side. and a lot of hyperbolic language, we've just seen an endless amount of this since 2014. but it's really also to see if nato can also live up to its own self image as a defensive alliance. and so it's really reviewing this whole situation and trying to get back to some point where you can have some decent, a bilateral negotiations between these 2 world powers essentially. but it does, it is it's making russia of predictable, normative power. and i think that's really important to point out because russia's always cast is some sort of irrational actor by the west, by western diplomats, by media. and it's really casting them as a normative power. and i think that's really important because europe likes predictability. markets like predictability and rushes incredibly predictable.

they've done this at every turn, inter situation, they have done a move that says reset the situation and allows for diplomacy. the question is, will the west reciprocate so charge. if i don't go to you here in budapest, i mean i read the to document. it's a, it's, it's, it's a, it's very legal like, but it's extremely familiar as well. i mean, and the reason why i'm asking this question is because we keep hearing no country has a right to veto. another country's a desire to join the military alliance. now that is an international law, and as far as i know, there's really no historical precedent to it is. well, i mean this is kind of made out of hold off. ok, but that's, that's the manager that we get out of stilton bird and brussels. your thought, yeah, that's a very good point because essentially what made the single russia has no right to veto anything at all that we do. we can go anywhere, do anything that we want to know, right?

so what we, on the other hand, have a right to veto anything that russia, so we have a right to tell russia where it can conduct its military exercises. well, we don't think that you should conduct military exercises anywhere close to the green border. we don't think that should deploy any a month, but they can't tell us what to do. so when you consider these, what russia is saying it, everything that is insisting on in the street is that pertains to nato's expansion. isn't it is nato that he's moving. every slip is nato that has extended its reach far beyond what was envisaged when it signed the 997 foundation document with russia. and so it is extraordinary that the media with parents, whatever nature with us,

officials of them, are just completely outrageous. well, why is it, how courageous for russia to insist on the security guarantees is to say, but they are the countries that are our neighbors. the countries with which we were partners in the former ussr, these country should not be the base for nato activities ever. but so it's the natal think he's now so ingrained on policy makers of media that they think that there's something really outrageous rush asking for some, some kind of a security for themselves. you know, i think the rush is accused of building up spirit and then phones. but in fact, it's made out it's creating a sphere influence at the expense of russia and insecurity. that argument is never presented in western media. yeah, it is. and it's, it's amazing because if you go to the music security conference and all the talk of

the last decades been about collective security packs with both sides coming to the table to establish some level of balance. and now in the last, since 2014, that's not really happening in the west, it's using the u. s. is using the new credit ukraine as the sort of main, he's just to justify their expansion for saying that it's russian aggression. i think this is a really important point in history because now vitamin put in the russian government are wanting to pull the west to the table to talk about specifics to talk about reality. what is the situation in crimea visa, international law, and if you dig into these issues, you'll see that it's not. it's the polar opposite of how it's been characterized over the last 7 years by the u. s. and its allies, the same with eastern ukraine. what happened in eastern ukraine? how did the situation begin? there is a lot of political details there,

like lustration. the things that were encouraged by the u. s. and the u. s. backed political actors at the time that created their crisis. and russia did not invade crimea or service to pull. they were there already. and there was a, there was a transition to crimea was reunited with russia and been separated in 1954. so these nuances never get talked about, and so they think russia is in violation of all these international laws, and that justifies nato expansion. so if we come to a forum, if we come to a negotiation table, these details should come out. will they though? is this what the u. s. wants do they want to have that conversation? i don't think they do. i don't think their allies do. they want to keep it in the realm of hyperbolic aggressive, to drive by comments and accusations. because there you don't have to have, you know, you really don't have to abide by any international agreements or treaties. you

just seem to be reacting to russian aggression. so i think this is a really important point. you know, george is the argument set out for present. and each country has its own security interest. they are, that is indivisible. but the reaction so far from western governments is that russian, russia, security is anything but indivisible. i mean, this is someone one way street, it's very hypocritical, 40 seconds before we go to the break. it's either because it made those attitude and you know, they were us and the u. k. government and the rest of them attitude is russia, has no legitimate security concerns of it. and therefore, whenever russia does address it. so security need and that's just aggression. and we have to defend ourselves against ra, from aggression. and so, you know, that's, that's the center of their attitude. any, any russian demand security guarantees. is that something that we have to resist?

because it's aggression from russia. ok gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here again. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real noun. stay with our join me every thursday on the alex simon show. i'll be speaking to guess in the world politics sport, business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. goodbye dreamer shapes bankers on those with

there's things we dare to ask a ah, welcome out to cross up were all things are considered. i'm futile. a bill, this is the home addition trim bungee. we're discussing some real news. ah. okay, baker. let's go back to you in plymouth. one of the interesting things is that what we hear from the head of nato sultan burg, his army,

and almost default every other sentence. and he begins every paragraph and ends, every paragraph with nato as a defensive alliance. so can you explain to our viewers why a defensive alliance needs to expand? because i think the definition of defense is that you defend what you have. am i wrong? go ahead. well, that, that's the whole premise of, of nato is a defensive alliance. and it has been an offensive alliance in recent years. but if you, if you look at what's behind that, what is behind that change in, in, in orientation by nato is there's a lot of pressure, especially in the u. s. in britain to drive military defense sales for instance. so they need markets and they need situations where this can happen. and if you look at the amount of weapons that the u. s. has been pumping and military aid, they've been pumping into ukraine. this is effectively from the u. s. side. this is corporate welfare. this is what john mccain's job was. while he was senator,

was to look for opportunities and markets where they can channel a product in there that's paid for by the us taxpayer for all these defense contractors. now that job is taken over by senator tom cotton, marco rubio, and people like this. they've taken that torch. so there's that. plus there's this kind of nato's a having an existential crisis. we all know it, everyone's talking about it. even donald trump remarked on this in his own way in his own bull she way. he remarked on this during his presidency, so it is kind of an alliance. it's an organization that doesn't really, it's not attached to its original purpose at all. everybody kind of knows this, and i think it's, it's good that russia has gone for this reset right now. and that's going to really bring this into the light of day where you can have this proper discussion internationally. and then maybe the media might join in this discussion. you know, heaven forbid that they might actually weigh in some of the great commentators,

international relations and our mainstream media. but that's what's been missing. and this is if, if this isn't brought to a slow down or halt, then we're really facing the potential for a hot conflict in somewhere down the road. and that's not anything that europe wants for sure. the u. s. enjoy the saber rattling the arm sales. the posturing the politicians can do, but it's not really in europe's interest at all. hopefully that's what comes to emerge with this. well, i'm not holding my breath unfortunately. george, me the way the western median politicians frame this entire situation as a conflict between russia and ukraine. and if you look at these 2 documents, obviously ukraine has mentioned, but it's really that that's a focus pointed at the data point. these 2 documents, these 2 proposals are of a grand scale. i mean, it's something we haven't seen since 975 and,

and what needs one, the most important things that needs to happen is that for western audiences understand that it needs to be refrained completely. this is an absolute, central grad for nato nato's mission. and it has to expand or basically to shut down shop. and obviously from what patrick had to say, there's just too much money involved be or go ahead a lot of money. and of course, later comes accompanied with this massive propaganda machine. you know, you mentioned moments ago about it's a defensive alliance, so it keeps repeating this over and over again. and just as the media always repeat, well, so is providing your grain with defensive weapons, you know, so that everything is defensive. so when they provide mis styles, they are anti tank miss miss on a miss. it doesn't matter whether you launch it against a tank or whether you launch it against the civilian population. but that's why, because ultimately, you know,

the public in nato countries really do not want to get into a war with russia. and so that's why they have to be bamboozled with all the talk about how nato is terribly frightened of imminent russian invasion. that is, why know me, journalists ever goes to ukraine and off the bus of them say, are you really afraid of a russian invasion? i mean, is this something that you know is affecting your life? you think the russians are about to roll in? do you grade tomorrow? they don't, because of course you gradients aren't afraid of that. but as far as policy makers go, as far as the media go, you have to gin up this idea that russia any moment is of how to move it into your grade. and of course, that justifies all the military expenditures the justifies that hysteria. and it was, justifies nato, continually expanding or we have to expand because of russia. but the fact is that it is nato. that seems to think that it somehow has

a right to be in central asia. that is, or what we need to conduct the activities a central asia. we need to set up military bases in central. it always defensive so, well, i know it doesn't take a genius to figure out what you may call the defense it, but somebody else does not see this defensive. so that's why they think you final acts, then security is indivisible. you can't just simply say, well, we say it's defensive, therefore it must be defensive. no, it's well depends on, well, who is it directed against? what do they do? they think that the deployment is defensive, if not, then, and other than it's not acceptable. you know, in patrick, i mean it's coming to a head right now. i mean, do these blink ins and the elements are these people who are the caliber to understand the historic moment that we're at right now, because this is the russians are saying, you've gone far enough and we're not going to take it any longer. the line has been

drawn, i mean, these people, serious enough to understand that i'm looking at the current foreign policy gaggle and for lack of a better term. it is led by people that i don't think have that sort of depth in the current administration or any recent u. s. and ministration for that matter. but there's also, you know, the u. s. is in a very tight spot right now because of the emergence of a military union in europe. that if that, if that becomes the sort of the lead defense force for europe, then that takes the u. s. ability to have its hand directly into the glove of europe for all things military. so there is a competition in the background, a little bit between nato and european military union in pasco. so that's, that's not good for washington because washington always relied on nato to act multilaterally without being seen to act directly. and so if you take away nato as

a, as an instrument for u. s. international hedge money, for instance, that's not good in european military union or an army, for instance, in the future. the u. s. will have to somehow negotiate with it rather than from inside it. and so this is a really important, so they're kind of in a bit of a competition in a bit of a race to maintain their influence and their foothold in their post world war 2 orientation in europe. so this is difficult for the u. s. and there, i think there's a little bit of panic setting in, in recent years, and finding a way to stay relevant, finding way to stay in there. no charge if, if washington and its allies reject these 2 documents. so where do we go from there? because it seems to me that they are not taking this seriously. i think they're blinded by their own ideology. i think they're blinded by the sense of them being morally superior, which has nothing to do with international relations or international law. i mean,

we're really in a quandary right now, but i don't think they understand the, the unstable situation that they have created. because russia is not going to surrender. it's not, it's national security, full stop. yes, yes, i think so. and i think the, this goes together with the crisis in ukraine, which is what we were talking about at the beginning. but the rest of the very comes with nato converging ukraine into just one giant aircraft carrier with dumping this huge amount of military hardware trainers, especially everybody essentially trying to turn ukraine into a torpedo director of russia and russia. you know, sooner or later is simply going to act against regular, cannot allow essentially,

the very hostile, heavily stays on its borders and which basically is just the pool would base for nato and russia. when i asked them, i think that's why the situation is dangerous, and i think that's why the rest of these do treaties are saying, well, you know, we need to de escalate what's going on in ukraine as we've agreed. it's unlikely that the major basel do anything about it, which case, i think it was crisis and ukraine could certainly come to ahead sometime in the new year. and i think that will be a disaster for everyone or the west and will russia. but basically, russia cannot allow this to continue because this is, there is an existential right. the russia becomes, not the cynicism stinks, but i haven't because this has nothing really to do with nato, doesn't i'm sorry with ukraine, doesn't ukraine is not really not particularly concerned one way or another. it's

a ukraine. it's a cudgel in. the problem is it's been built up in the u. s. media, this russian invasion that's meant to happen, according to intelligence sources and january both sides, both democrat and republican of kind of bought into this narrative. so that might hamper any efforts by biting ministration to want to be seen as the piece savior and come and do some interim deal. there's going to be pressure on from democrats, not to do that to be more aggressive. and you know what the republicans are. are aiming for on this, they want to see more attention ratchet it up. so because that's good for the military industrial complex. so it's a, it's not a good situation politically this week, the week administration that you have in the white house now is not good at all for this situation. so that's one thing that a lot of people should be very concerned about. you know, just that we got one more minute here, joe, joe biden desperately needs

a when somewhere. and this could be that even if he tries to deescalate, with the limited lo off pain thinkers around him, he's going to be or be crushed, or compromising. this is what is happen to american foreign policy. go ahead. yeah, that's, that's it. i mean, he basically could easily, anyone, you could just pick up a phone and say, look, you know, you've got to be realistic. you've got understand geography, you know, a gambling, you know, you're playing with fire, you know, you're planning with the future of your country. you know, work something out with people is done by, you know, work out a modus vivendi with your giant neighbor, russia. and i will be happy with eisen is incapable of doing so. so this is a problem that actually has a relatively easy solution to problems that have difficult solutions. this one isn't but, and i think they by isn't going to do so, and that's why i think the situation is going to escalate and the theory, right?

i think he's going to have a bad outcome policies there, but the politics aren't and that that's one side. i want to think my guess and go to pass. want to think of you were still watching us here the next time. remember? oh good is your media reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? high selection for community. are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere? which direction? what is true? what is faith?

in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. oh, when i was so wrong when i was just a shape out. because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground oil and gas, manufacturing, electricity, telecom transportation, all of them now have io t type of infrastructure connected to the internet for clarity,

realizing this disruptive potential so that those countries cons, ignore it because it threatens national security, but if we take the nato and you countries, virtually all of them subscribe to certain doctrines and maintains selling but tell us forces. they are a cyber army on behalf of a country. that's their job. ah, working room or should in the back she popped in. she said, well, i'm getting ready to go shopping for christmas and i wish there was a good you're buying another, shooting another safe part of american life. shattered by violence. the gunman was armed with an a ar 15, semi automatic rifle. when the issue comes home, it's time to act when we're silent on this issue, the other side winds, by default,

the lady that lived over there. i was walking one of the jobs, which is why you where again, were you scared me? nothing. i take it off of me. i think the people need to take responsibility in their own hands and be prepared if those kind of weapons who are less available. we wouldn't have a lot of the shootings that we certainly wouldn't have the number of deaths ah, pleasures of violence in europe as governments, tough and restrictions to combat the new rapidly spreading cove. it varied all the chrome, frances, of the ballpark with amazon over the firms cheek took delivery on the cut local stores by the government, steven adopting a new bill and to try to force the company to charge its customers more on despite

the lack of any police investigation top american i said chris no no.