we conflict and assure all security is the west asleep at the switch. ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, marcus papadopoulos in london. he is a historian, analyst and author of the book, arise, receive the return of russia to world politics. and in budapest we have to work semi well. he is a podcast to read the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals are generally cross off rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want, and i always appreciate it. i start out in budapest here. george, it's been about a week now since the russians have sent 2 proposals to the united states and nato. we've gotten mixed reactions from the foreign policy blog, a peer apparently. in july, there'll be some kind of talks in geneva again, really that information on that. and it seems to me that the,

with the russians have made a very clear case that they feel that their security is being threatened and they have a solution to improve. and protect the security of all and we can go into that. but the reaction to it is, is mediocre at best. and the last thing i want to make this clear to all our viewers, the last thing the russians want to hear is, yeah, we'll sit down and talk. the time to talk is come to an end their documents on the table and go through them and let sign them publicly george a. i think that's exactly what the russians saying, which is that we have been saying the same thing over and over again starting from 1991 when a go or assurances from the west of the west will not expand into space left, i believe the withdrawal. so ok, and you know,

with complaint again and again, the west is treated complaints with content and just say, you know, you lost the cold war, you know, then the race. and now that the political situation has changed very much in an adverse fashion where we're still playing this game of coming up with these silly, legalistic arguments like, well, every country has the summer and right to decide its own security arrangement. and in any case we, we never promised you anything. and even if we didn't promise you anything, we didn't put it in writing. and in any case, there was a defensive alliance. how much it make span, all the way to central asia, the chinese, all those. there's still a defensive alliance, coming up with this kind of nonsense and russia just saying we're in no mood for

a. so i think you said these are the meetings in january or something will entail the west coming up with the usual complaint all your in our elections, and you're spreading distance nation by r t. and we don't like the way you move your armies around with borders. and it comes up with the sort of disingenuous argument. i think the russian just say enough already. you know, we're out of here. you know, and mark, it's all a while all the while offensive very material is being sent to you ukraine. there's different sourcing about the number of one of our specialists and advisors and again, in the possibility of some type of missile systems me, the time for talking is over because i think that really frustrates me most. and george, and i talked about this almost on a daily basis, is that the problem has been telegraphing this intensely through all of its highest

officials and it's media. and it doesn't seem to get triple through it to western policy makers is if they just don't take any of this seriously. your thoughts, marcus, let us be and presently clear about something peter, the crisis over ukraine is in the short term on accounts of the west engineers who in here in february of 2014, which proved west and the russian government to power. and in the long term, it is a result of an expansion into eastern europe and into the old states. something that the americans firmly assured me call, which off in 1990 would not happen. in the event american secretary of state james baker said to gorbachev, quote, not one inch eastward, but alas, the naive, incompetent fool that gorbachev was never demanded of the americans that they put

back in to rights in now turn into the kremlin demands. they all the demands for any self respecting country would make, namely, a ride in the clenches in rights, and that it will not admit ukraine moved over ga, into its ranks. and secondly, that nato will withdraw its forces from the russian border. now, nature is actually obliged by the nato. russia found an act 1997 to not have its forces in eastern europe and also in the baltic states. which brings me on to another point. even if nato was to put into writing what the kremlin is demanding of it, a pledge by night, so formally or in writing is actually worthless. because firstly, nature has, as well as i already said,

has violated the nato russia found in act by decision. it is in the baltic states in eastern europe, and secondly, nature violated its own found in treaty in 1991 when it on the federal republic of yugoslavia. specifically, it violated also one of the blocks found in treaty which stipulates a block who never use force to resolve a dispute. so quite frankly, a pledge from nature even in writing is absolutely yes, no charge to find another way to find really frustrating. you know, we've been talking for 6 minutes and 3 seconds already in this program. and all of us have mentioned dates, agreements, or conversations that are documented. i mean, and then i look at western coverage and all of this and none of it. but i mean, we're sourcing this all the time on a microscopic level. and again, you know, then,

so the, well, we never said, nathan, when expand, what is that supposed to mean? and why should i care? i mean, is natal into international law as if it's the prism in which the globe sees its security? absurd. but they don't. they want us to believe this. george? i'm frustrated. i think you have absolutely right. now that has been a need to create and of course, what, why they don't getting away with it for 30 years is that they were convinced in 990, that russia is now a hopeless week basket case. it's not often the size of the soviet union, it doesn't have any kind of economic power. and you could just treat russia with, i mean, right. and you know, over over again, russia as it made the same complaints or what was the, the, the, the claimant,

munich, security conference speech by going to be put in, in 2007. and then the repeated complaint. and you know, they just added, you know, this is, this is so boring. what i'm interested, you know, you don't have a leg to stand on because we are much stronger than you are. and what happened is we were finding that, you know, they to ready isn't service. all right? russia has made a enormous leaps in terms of it's a strategic weaponry with these type of fun weapons more seriously. and then this came out in the video conference between the 2 t and she's in pain. i mean, the china that we support russia's core security interest generally just say these things, you know, because it likes and all the phrases that it meant that on this issue we are right behind you. and then it comes to a confrontation. we will also act in

a way that is supportive of russia. so now suddenly, i mean at least some of the bright balls in the west. i realize it, we do have a 2 front war and there's no way we can take on 2. so at the same time, we don't think one of our own, i mean, we used to fighting against 80 or panama a, or a iraq or libya. we're not used to fighting super and a to from want to suddenly i lose the spot with leaders are realizing that this is really working against us. and we know we're going to have to do something. but unfortunately, the them, which the sold books are still mowing these stupid cliches. they don't quite realize that though they felicia is a long and mark is the public around the world are poorly served by

constantly, by the media characterizing this is a conflict between russia and ukraine, which it is not in the documents that have been sent to the united states and nato by russia have to do with a security across the entire you, your ration land meant. but the media constantly focusing on one issue. these documents were, were composed mostly out of frustration after 30 years. in to saying, we need to think about everyone security, but it's never raised that way. it's never, it's never given to the public that way. and this is a huge, this information campaign. it will say in the 2nd part of the program, what possibly could happen go ahead months as a more pe time western mainstream major is making that the arguments which is awfully untenable. arguments that the ukrainian and russian peoples are

distinct from one another. which of course, is a way of making the case even further for ukraine to join nato. but when you actually inform western journalists about the russian and ukrainian peoples are the same people, they are east florida. then there is silence from the males of these wretched men. and women because they know next to nothing indeed, let me read that they know nothing about the history of russia. they know nothing about the history of ukraine. and when i have told them before in television, debates that in march of 1991, so over 70 percent of the population of the ukrainian soviet socialist republic voted to preserve the union of soviet socialist republics. the truth of the matter is that the only part of ukraine where you will find and see russian that sentiment

is the western most in places such as they both evolved from case and turn to poll . why? because that's part of ukraine was a part of poland and the austrian also from gary and empire for century. but if you visit odessa, if you visit, cause, if you visit person, if you visit nikolai, or if you visit the neat purchase in the neat pipe control, you will find the majority of people that identify themselves as part of the russian. well, that is another reason why this matter for you cripple russia is so very, very quick to jump in here. we're going to go to a heartbreaking that hard break. we're getting your discussion on security. stay with us. ah, ah.

well the pandemic, no, no born is another piece and you fresh as emerge. we don't have a charity. we don't have a vaccine. the whole world needs to take action to be ready. people are judgment. come in, crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with

either financial for i will, i would all the money laundering 1st thing to this is cathy to 3 different. oh good . this is a good start. well, we have our 3 banks all set up here. maybe something in europe, something in america, something overseas in the cayman islands, you know, all these banks are complicit in their to proceed with, hey, i'm ready to do some serious money laundry. ok. let's see how we did. well, we've got a nice luxury watch for max and for stacy. oh, beautiful jewelry. and how about ha ha. luxury automobile again for mag? you know, it, money laundering is higher, legal. don't watch report. ah ah welcome back to cross stock were all things are

considered i'm funeral about this is the home addition to remind you. we're talking about security for all. ah ok, let's go back to georgia in budapest. ok, in the 1st part of the program, we talked about really the kind of political diplomatic activities that are going on irrespective of how serious western policy makers are taking it. again, i want to read, reaffirmed everyone watching here is that we've gotten a lot of mixed messages. we have a barrel in the you saying that e u has a stake at the table, which was kind of interesting because they're the ones greatly affected by this. but i mean, the policy makers in the by didn't ministration, kind of a blogs, a response. but you know, we're looking at what russian officials are talking about. if this political, diplomatic power fails, they've already considered appropriate military technical reciprocal measures. i'm

quoting a number of russian foreign policy officials. this is serious business, george. yes, it is. and the russians have repeatedly refer to the exemplar of the cuban missile crisis in the cuban missile crisis of the kennedy administration laid it on the line to show which is that your stationing missiles in cuba, 90 miles off that goes to florida is an existential threat. to the united states and we are not interested in your disingenuous, legalistic arguments, well, these massages are entirely defensive as cuba is a sovereign country and has a right to decide who provides it with ms and so on. basically saying, i think you get this out. we will, and we're going to do it very quickly,

and the russians are precise. referring to that, our attitude. now we're just not interested in disingenuous arguments about the sovereign, right? so the ukranian people, which is at the moment we saying that what you're doing in your grade is affecting us in a profound ex, essential way. we will act unilaterally. and that means, you know, if you're going to continue to dump a military hardware level major military infrastructure, you get to station electronic a basis. if you great, we will ask you to watch it and we will just take them out. and that's what they will do with the, with doesn't seem to realize that no rush really means it. and then then they're going to act like it. and really, this is very little then that they, there's going to be able to do about it, you know, look at this is again,

what so frustrating is it, there is, this is a big blow or a game of chicken here. and it's not me. we have as recently as august 2008, when soccer really foolishly attacked. sell cynthia, thinking it was going to be over in a week in the russians, reacted the end of the russians and made it very clear that they would react, they did. they went into the interior of the country, and just as george was hinting to destroy all of the inner se, infrastructure, all the electronic eavesdropping there was of a laser focused on russia. they destroyed it all up to what i've been, hold up to a $1000000000.00 worth. i think we see the future if nato continues on the path on what it's doing in ukraine. the, as george said, if you don't take it out, we will go ahead. let us not forget that up until the cuban missile crisis america has miss. i was in turkey, which are i in the soviet union,

and which were ready to be equipped with nuclear warheads refer, returning to ukraine. the problem here is quite simple. now that ukraine is in the west sphere of influence, the americans will not let the country go easily. therefore, it is down to russia to take a very, very clinical action. because russia will go to war to defend its national security. and ukraine is russia's soft underbelly, under no circumstances can the russian government allow ukraine to be night. so often nato forces to be even more widely deployed in the country because of that will pose a most perilous threat. so the security of russia and to the security of the russian people. and also the americans could extend their missile defense system in

eastern europe into ukraine. and that would mean that the russian strategic nuclear also would be in dire trouble. so unless the americans relent and put into writing though, as i said earlier, wrong, i don't think i played from them in writing would mean anything. but if they do put into writing your credit would not be admitted into the ranks of the western military block. and if they do pull their forces back from eastern europe and the state, then of course, tension will somewhat decrease. but the problem is that in a year from now in 2 years from now, we could be at this position again. that is why decisive action has to be taken by russia, because you, we'll come when you dos. and so the ranks of nature. and by then it just be too late for russia,

but i don't think that they will ever come. the ukraine should never have been allowed to enter the west stray of influence in the 1st place. but now we are in a very dangerous situation. as you said, the chance is often accidental breaking out between american russia a very distinct. i think, i think there are circles in washington that we do want to have accomplish because isn't it really convenient, george, that all the u. s. will commit troops the u. k. will commit troops. ok, but if, if there's, if there's military action on the part of the russians, which is a reaction to what nato is doing, they will be sanctioned here. i mean i, if i were in the criminal and just enough of this, ok, there is a clear, a threat to our national security is existential. and we will address it. ok, whatever the cost, maybe. what i, what bothers me is that i think that the, the west is just sleep walking. it's and you know, they don't take it seriously. somehow, nato was

a virtuous organization which is really strange, made some military block. ok, you know what it was it on, on twitter, you know, don't out the, the, your belief belief in the nato. that's bizarre. it's a military alliance here. there is plenty of people on the west. the done do want to see some kind of conflict here, because nato was painted itself into a, into a, into a corner here. it must succeed in nato in ukraine or cease to exist. it always creates these, the 0 some binary decisions george? yeah, i agree. i think there is some calculation that is indeed russian intervened militarily and re, incorporates within russia, the dom boss. then essentially, nature will be consolidated. nature will be able to impose it struck coney and

sanctions on russia, a russia out of the swift financial transactions system. and what will just be for the east and out of the west altogether. i think there's a calculation that the problem that they do has is that if indeed such a scenario plays out, they do will be shown to them a tight yet because they to will it be what is, what is it it's done is an issue also guarantees that was really just pay for point money. right? you know, the baltic states were under the impression that they were being given actual money, the actual guarantees of security. the suddenly he got are going to be realizing in the way, does anyone really believe nato's ready to go to war? to nuclear war? fall is stony or little wait here for me. i mean the, you know, and song. so that was the name to blah,

which is what is been going on. the see this empty guarantees that it's been issuing like so much candy will be shown to be absolutely ridiculous because you don't, i'm going to be, isn't going to be able to go on behalf of these tiny stage as on was going to have to stop backtracking and telling the stone in which it don't provoke russia. i mean, this is what you're doing is really stupid. you're mistreating your russian nationals. you're desecrating the will to more questions getting angrier and angrier about this. and we can come in on your side and say, yeah, we're ready to go and you will, you will be home. so i think it could well be the beginning of the information. yeah, i mean marketing agree with george's analysis there in the process of finding their own thing, slip here because they're putting it in all or nothing. ok, as i said at the very top of the program, there's no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is collected

security. why can't these kids are not cases and nato understand that, because if you're an egg, usually people think you're smart. these people are not smart. go ahead. it was one thing, peterson, a, so to have expanded into, into poland. it was enough to have expanded into the baltic states, anyone with an ounce of common sense with an ounce of enlightenment at the time the boat statewood met admitted into the ranks of the western military block would have known that night was over stretching itself and even more so when it comes to ukraine. but alas, we have a situation today at night, which is a monstrously criminal block which is demonstrated criminality when it bombed the federal republic of yugoslavia. in 1999 is intent on bringing

ukraine into its ranks. because that would mean russia is in circles on the western border from the arctic sea to the black sea. they know the dangers of the game. they are playing in washington and in london and of course in brussels. but that incessant need their incessant love for influence a fervent power to save russia, food stamps, if you could result in the most holy off was that europe has known since the end of the 2nd mode will not be russ food. that will be no choice for i'm going to open up a can of worms george 32nd, considering the in the entire project for bosnia herzegovina which is completely in tatters, falling apart. that's the future of ukraine if they want to. and then you have a europe that is completely isolated from the world. now russia go ahead. i think

it will well, because the geopolitical forces have very dramatically deteriorated for the west of there is china and china, russia and now certainly strategic allies. so any conflict that's going to take place in europe. good. that could very well be a 2nd from opening up by china. china is that it will help in any way. and therefore, you know, they'll be good. they'll be a conflict over taiwan and that, and then what exactly is the west going to do? and so it's a huge gap stopping humiliation for the web. so it's a very serious thing on that. no, because i think it's correctly. i want to take my guess in london in budapest are be worth watching here. are you see an ex family member? ah.

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