are special yes. today, the only in the legendary fire sign, author of the planet pontine match. nice to see. happy holidays. ah ah, ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle . there's no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is always collective. this is precisely how russia abuse, endless. western hostility and nato expansion to the east. moscow is presented ways to avoid conflict and assure all security is the west asleep at the switch.

ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, marcus papadopoulos in london. he is a historian analyst, an author of the book, arise, receive the return of russia to world politics. and in budapest we have towards m u l. e is a podcast to read the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals are generally crossed up rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want, and i always appreciate it. i start out in budapest year. george, it's been about a week now since out of the russians have sent 2 proposals to the united states and nato. we've gotten mixed reactions from the foreign policy blog. a peer, apparently. in july, there'll be some kind of talks in geneva again, really, you know, that information on that. and it seems to me that the, with the russians have made a very clear taste,

that they feel that their security is being threatened. and they have a solution to improve and protect the security of all. and we can go into that. but the reaction to it is, is mediocre at best. and the last thing, and i want to make this clear to all our viewers, the last thing the russians want to hear is, yeah, we'll sit down and talk the time for talk is come to an end, their documents on the table. and it's go through them and let sign them publicly george a. i think that's exactly what the russians saying, which is that we have been saying the same thing over and over again starting from 1991 when a go or assurances from the west of the west will not expand into space left awfully withdrawal. so ok. and with

complaint again and again, the west is treated complaints with content and just say, you know, you lost the cold war, you know, then the race. and now that the political situation has changed very much in an adverse fashion. where was this? so playing this game of coming up with these silly, legalistic arguments like, well, every country has the summer and right to decide its own security arrangement. and in any case we, we never promised you anything. and even if we didn't promise you anything, we didn't put it in writing. and in any case, it was a defensive alliance. how much it make span, all the way to central asia, the chinese, all those. it's still a defensive alliance. i feel like coming up with this kind of nonsense and russia just saying we're in no mood for a so i think you said these are the meetings in january or something will entail

the west coming up with the usual complaint. all you interfering in our elections and you're spreading distance nation by r t, and we don't like the way you move your armies around with borders. and it always comes up with the sort of disingenuous argument. i think the russian just say enough already. you know, we're out of here, you know, and mark, it's all a while all the while offensive, very material are being sent to you ukraine. there's different source thing about the number of score specialists and advisors. and again, in the possibility of some type of missile systems me, the time for talking is over because i think that really frustrated me most. and george, and i talked about this almost on a daily basis, is where the kremlin has been telegraphing this intensely through all of its highest officials and its media. and it doesn't seem to get trickled through it to

western policy makers, is if they just don't take any of the seriously your thoughts markets, let us be and practically clear about something, peter, the crunchy. so ukraine is in the show on accounts of the west's engineers who in care in february of 2014, which pro western and russian governments of power. and in the long term, it is a result of nature expansion into eastern europe and into the baltic states. something that the americans really assured me call gorbachev in 1990 was not happened. indeed. then american secretary of state james baker said to go, but joseph quote, not one inch 8th, 2 baths, alas, the naive, incompetent food that gorbachev was never demand. it'll be americans that they put back in writing. now turn into the criminal and demands they all the demands for

any self respecting country would make, namely, about nato puts into rights in the pledges in rights and that it will not admit ukraine moved over georgia into its ranks. and secondly, that later will withdraw its forces from the russian order. now, nature is actually obliged by the nato, russia found in act 19. 97 to not have its forces in eastern europe and also in the baltic states. which brings me on to another point. even if nato was to put into writing what the kremlin is demanding of it, a pledge by night, so formally or in writing is actually worthless. because firstly, nature has, as well as i already said, has violated the nato russia found in act by decision. it is in the baltic states

in eastern europe, and secondly, nature violated its own found in treaty in 1991 when it on the federal republic of yugoslavia. specifically, it violated also one of the blocks found in treaty which stipulates a block who never use force to resolve a dispute. so quite frankly, a pledge from nature even in writing is absolutely yes, no charge to find another way to find really frustrating. you know, we've been talking for 6 minutes and 3 seconds already in this program. and all of us have mentioned dates, agreements, or conversations that are documented. i mean, and then i look at western coverage and all of this and none of it. but i mean, we're sourcing this all the time on a microscopic level. and again, you know, then, so the, well, we never said, maybe we can expand what,

what is that supposed to mean? and why should i care? i mean, is natal into international law as it's the prism in which the globe sees its security? absurd. but they don't. they want us to believe this. george. i'm frustrated. i think you have absolutely right. now that has been the need to create and of course, what, why they don't getting away with it for 30 years is that they were convinced in 990, that russia is now a hopeless week basket case. it's not often the size of the soviet union, it doesn't have any kind of economic power. and you could just treat russia with, i mean, right. and, you know, over over again, russia as it made the same complaints or, you know, obviously the, the, the famous munich security conference speech by putting in 2007.

and they've been repeated complaint. and you know, they just added, you know, this is, this is so boring. what i'm interested, you know, you don't have a leg to stand on because we are much stronger than you are. and what is happen is we were finding that, you know, they to ready isn't service for all right. russia has made a enormous leaps in terms of it's a strategic weaponry with these type of fun weapons more seriously. and then this came out in the video conference between the 2 t and she's in pain. i mean, the china has said that we support russians call security interest. just to just say these things, you know, because it likes and all the phrases that it meant that on this issue we are right behind you. and then it comes to a confrontation. we will also act in

a way that is supportive of russia. so now suddenly, i mean at least some of the bright balls in the west, i realize it, we do have a 2 front war and there's no way we can take on 2. so at the same time we can take one of our own. i mean, we used to fighting against 80 or panama a, or a rock or libya. we're not used to fighting super and a 2 front walls. so suddenly, i leave the spot. western leaders are realizing that this is really working against us. and we know we're going to have to do something, but unfortunately that in which the shoulder bugs are still mowing these stupid cliches. and then they don't quite realize that those, the base of those issues are not long. and mark has been a public around the world are barley, served by constantly,

by the media character writing. this is a conflict between russia and ukraine, which it is not the documents that have been sent to the united states and nato by russia. have to do with security across the entire you raisins, landman, but the immediate constantly is focusing on one issue. these documents were, were composed mostly out of frustration after 30 years. and to say, we need to think about everyone security, but it's never phrased that way. it's never and it's never given to the public that way, and this is a huge, this information campaign. they get it what we'll say in the 2nd part of the program, what possibly could happen, go ahead months. as a more pater western mainstream major is making that the arguments which is absolutely untenable argument back to the ukrainian and russian peoples are distinct from one another. which of course, is

a way of making the case even further for ukraine to join nato. but when you actually to inform western journalists about the russian and ukrainian peoples are the same people, they are east florida. then there is silence from the males of these wretched men and women because they know next to nothing. indeed, let me read that they know nothing about the history of russia. they know nothing about the history of ukraine and when i have told them before in television, debates that in march of 1991. so over 70 percent of the population of the ukrainian soviet socialist republic voted to preserve the union of soviet socialist republics. the truth of the matter is that the only or ukraine where you will find the russian, that senseless is the western most in places such as live off ivana frank case,

and turnip po, why? because that's part of you train was a part of poland and the austrian oscar hungarian empire for centuries. but if you visit odessa, if you visit cock, or if you visit person, if you visit nikolai, if you visit the purchase in scotland, i trust you will find the majority of people there identify themselves as part of the russian. well, that is another reason why this matter for you cripple. gotcha. is so very, very a jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break that hard break. we're continue our discussion on security for all stay with. ah

join me every thursday on the alex salmon? sure. i'll be speaking to. yes. will the world politics sport? business? i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm hm. oh, driven by dreamer shapes banks center. some of those with there's sinks. we dare to ask oh, you can have the test bed for medical and then later recreational marijuana

and it started with some things. so in a saying, i was wanting to socialize, everybody does it for why can i and then it just keeps going and going and going. i'm just going to do it was yeah. and that it's oh, i'm just going to try this was never do it again. because the one wife was in the morning, i'll be right on inside. okay. and you surround yourself with people who are encouraging you to do it not to stop or it felt like my life was over. jump office about balcony, and died. you just couldn't stop. welcome back to cross stock. were all things are considered? i'm peter le bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're talking about security for all a ah

ok. let's go back to georgia in budapest. ok. in the 1st part of the program, we talked about really the kind of political diplomatic activities that are going on irrespective of how serious western policy makers are taking. and again, i want to really reaffirmed everyone watching here is that we've gotten a lot of mixed messages. we have a barrel in the you saying that e u has a stake at the table, which is kind of interesting because they're the ones greatly affected by this. but i mean, the policy makers in the by didn't ministration kind of a blog, a response. but, you know, we're looking at what russian officials are talking about. if this political, diplomatic power fails, they've already considered appropriate military technical reciprocal measures. i'm quoting a number of russian foreign policy officials. this is serious business. george. yes

it is. and the russians have repeatedly refer to the exemplar of the cuban missile crisis in the cuban missile crisis for the kennedy administration, laid it on the line to show which is that your stationing missiles in cuba, 90 miles off that goes to florida is an existential threat. to the united states and we are not interested in your disingenuous, legalistic arguments, well, these massages are entirely defensive and cuba is a sovereign country and has a sovereign right to decide who provides it with ms and so on. basically saying, i think you get this out, we will, and we're going to do it very quickly. and russians are precise referred to, that's our attitude. now. we're just not interested in disingenuous arguments about

the sovereign, right? so the ukranian people, which is at the moment we saying that what you're doing in your grade is affecting us in a profound ex, essential way. we will act unilaterally. and that means, you know, if you're going to continue to dump a military hardware, build up a military infrastructure, you get to station electronic a basis. if you great, we will ask you a lot of that and we will just take them out. and that's what they will do with the with doesn't seem to realize that there's no rush really means it. and then then they're going to act like it. and really, this is very little to them that they, there's going to be able to do about it. you know, look at this is again, what so frustrating it is, is it, there is, this is a big blow or a game of chicken here. and it's not me. we have as recently as august

2008, when soccer really foolishly attacked. sell cynthia, thinking it was going to be over the weekend. the russians reacted the and the russians and made it very clear that they would react, they did. they went into the interior of the country. and just as george was hinting to destroying all of the in a say, infrastructure, all the electronic eavesdropping there was of a laser focused on russia. they destroyed it all up to what i've been, hold up to a $1000000000.00 worth. i think we see the future if nato continues on the power of what it's doing in ukraine, the, as george said, if you don't take it out, we will go ahead. let us not forget that up until the cuban missile crisis america has miss. i was in turkey, which are aimed at the soviet union and which were ready to be equipped with and you can all has to refer returning to ukraine. the problem here is quite simple.

now that ukraine is in the west, fear of influence, the americans will not let the country go easily, therefore, it is down. so russia to take a very, very clinical action, because russia will go to war to defend its national security. and ukraine is russia's soft underbelly, under no circumstances can the russian government allow ukraine to be nato. often nato forces to be even more widely deployed in the country because of that would pose a most perilous french. so the security or russia to the security of the russian people. and also the americans could extend their missile defense system in eastern europe into ukraine. and that would mean that the russian strategic nuclear arsenal

would be in dire trouble. so unless the americans relents and put into right though, as i said the wrong, i don't think i played from them in writing would mean anything. but if they do put into rights and ukraine would not be admitted into the ranks of the west and military block. and if they do pull their forces back from eastern europe and the states, then of course tension will somewhat decrease. but the problem is that in a year from now, in 2 years from now, we could be a decision. again, that is why decisive action has to be taken by russia. because you, i will come when you dos and so the ranks of nature. and by then it just be too late for russia, but i don't think that they will ever come. the ukraine should never have been allowed to enter the west, stay of influenced in the 1st place. but now we are in a very dangerous situation. as you said,

the chance is often accidental breaking out between american russia a very distinct. i think, i think there are circles in washington that we do want to have accomplish because isn't it really convenient, george, that all the u. s. won't commit troops the u. k. will commit troops. ok, but if, if there's, if there's military action on the part of the russians, which is a reaction to what nato is doing, they will be sanctioned here. i mean i, if i were in the criminal and just enough of this, ok, there is a clear, a threat to our national security is existential. and we will address it. ok, whatever the cost, maybe what i, what bothers me is that i think that the, the west is just sleep walking. it's and you know, they don't take it seriously. somehow, nato was a virtuous organization which is really strange, made some military block. ok. you know what it was it on, on twitter, you know, don't out the, the, your belief belief in the nato. that's bizarre. it's

a military alliance here. there is plenty of people in the west. the done do want to see some kind of conflict here. because nato was painted itself into a, into a, into a corner here. it must succeed in nato in ukraine or cease to exist. it always creates these, the 0 some binary decisions george. yes, i agree. i think there is some calculation that if indeed russia intervened militarily and re, incorporates within russia, the dom boss, then essentially nature will be consolidated. nature will be able to impose it struck coney and sanctions on russia, a russia out of the swift financial transaction system. and rush will just be on the east and out of the west altogether. i think there's

a calculation of that. the problem that they do has is that if indeed such a scenario plays out, they don't will be shown to them a tight yet because they to will it it. what is, what is it, it's done is an issue also guarantees that was really just pay for point money, right? you know, the baltic states were under the impression that they were being given actual money . the actual guarantees of security. the suddenly he got are going to be realizing in the way, does anyone really believe nato's ready to go to war, to nuclear war for tony or little wait here for me. i mean the, you know, and song, so that was the name to blah, which is what is been going on. the see this empty guarantees that it's been issuing like so much candy will be shown to be absolutely ridiculous because

you don't, i'm going to be, isn't going to be able to go on behalf of these tiny stage as on is going to have to stop backtracking and telling the stone in which it don't provoke russia. i mean, this is what you're doing is really stupid. you're mistreating your russian nationals. you're desecrating the world war. 2 more questions getting angrier and angrier about this. and we can come in on your side and say, yeah, we're ready to go and you will, you will be home. so i think, well, be the beginning of the info later. yeah, i mean marketing agree with george's analysis there in the process of finding their own thing, slip here because they're putting in all or nothing. ok, as i said at the very top of the program, there's no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is collected security. why can't these kids are not cases and nato understand that, because if you're an egg,

usually people think you're smart. these people are not smart. go ahead. it was one thing, peterson, a, so to have expanded into, into poland. it was a novel to have expanded into the baltic states, anyone with an ounce of common sense with an ounce of enlightenment at the time. the next stage was met, admitted into the ranks of the western military block would have known that night was over stretching itself and even more so when it comes to ukraine. but alas, we have a situation today at night, which is a monstrously criminal block which is demonstrated criminality when it bonds. the federal republic of yugoslavia. in 1999 is intent on bringing ukraine into its ranks. because that would mean russia is in circles on the west and border from the baltic sea to the black sea. they know the dangers of the game

. they are playing in washington and in london and of course in brussels. but that incessant need their incessant love for fervor influence of a power to save russia, food stamps, if you could result in the most holding off was that europe has known since the end of the 2nd mode will not be versus food. that will be no choice. they're going to open up a can of worms george 32nd be considering me in the entire project for bosnia herzegovina which is completely in tatters, falling apart. that's the future of ukraine if they want to. and then you have a europe that is completely isolated from the world. now russian go ahead. 30 isolated. well, because the geopolitical forces have very dramatically deteriorated for the west of there is china and china and russia and now certainly

strategic allies. so any conflict that's going to take place in europe, good, like a very well be in a 2nd from opening up by china. china is that it will help russia anyway. and therefore, you know, they'll be good. they'll be a conflict over taiwan. and then what he's like is the was going to do. and so it's a huge gap stopping humiliation for the last. so it's a very serious hands on that. no. because i think it's correctly. i want to take my guess in london in budapest are watching this here. you see an ex family member. ah ah, is your media a reflection of reality?

in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. oh when i was showing wrong, when i was just a kid and engagement, it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look so common ground. join me every thursday on the alex silent. sure. but i'll be speaking to guess what the world of politics, sport business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. ah, this, i was told that lines are not international civilian deaths and destruction. and afghans was to blow a lift the lid on america's drone program. the formal operator, currently in the hiding from the taliban, spoke to ortiz on the hood boys this project to ramps on operations. we were not hold about any civilian deaths. nobody told us that we had hit the wrong targets to the at the time in hiding alone for the way underground.