hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered, i'm funeral as well. there's no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is always collector. this is precisely how russia views, endless western hostility and nato expansion to the east. moscow is presented ways to avoid conflict and assure all security is the west asleep at the switch. ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, marcus papadopoulos in london. he is a historian, analyst and author of the book arise, receive the return of russia to world politics. and in budapest we have toward semi, well, we use a podcast to read the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals are generally crossed up rules in the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate it. i start out in budapest here. george, it's been about a week now since the russians have sent 2 proposals to the united states and nato.

we've gotten mixed reactions from the foreign policy. blob of peer, apparently in july, will be some kind of talks in geneva. again, really, you know, that information on that, and it seems to me that the, with the russians have made a very clear case that they feel that their security is being threatened. and they have a solution to improve and protect the security of all. and we can go into that, but the reaction to it is, is mediocre and best. and the last thing i want to make this clear to all our viewers, the last thing the russians want to hear is, yeah, we'll sit down and talk. the time to talk is come to an end their documents on the table and go through them and let sign them publicly. george. you summarize that actually be there. i think that's exactly what the russians saying, which is that we have been saying the same thing to you over and over again

starting from 1991. when a go or assurances from the west of the west will not expand into space left off the withdrawal. so ok, and you know, we've complained again and again in the west is treated complaints with content and just say, you know, you lost the cold war. you know, then the brakes and now that the geopolitical situation has changed very much in an adverse fashion where there was a still playing this game coming up with these silly, legalistic arguments like what every country has the summer and right to decide its own security arrangement. and in any case we, we never promised you anything. and even if we didn't promise you anything,

we didn't put it in writing. and in any case, it was a defensive alliance. how much it make span, all the way to central asia, to chinese, all those. it's still a defensive alliance. and so like coming up with this kind of nonsense and russia just saying we're in no mood for a so i think you said these are the meetings in january or something will entail the west coming up with the usual complaint. all your in our election and you're spreading distance nation by r t, and we don't like the way you move your armies around the board. and it comes up with the sort of disingenuous argument. i think the russian just say enough already . you know, we're out of here, you know, and mark, it's all a while, all a while offensive, very material is being sent to you ukraine. there's different source thing about the number of credit card specialists and advisors. and again,

in the possibility of some type of missile systems, meaning that the time for talking is over because i think that really frustrated me most. and george, and i talked about this almost on a daily basis, is where the kremlin has been telegraphing this intensely through all of its highest officials and its media. and it doesn't seem to get triple through it to western policy makers, is if they just don't take any of the seriously your thoughts markets. let us be and classically clear about something, peter, the crunchy. so ukraine is in the show on accounts of the west engineers who in care in february of 2014, which pro western and russian governments of power. and in the long term, it is a result of the nature of expansion into eastern europe and into the baltic states . something that the americans firmly assured me call gorbachev in 1990 was not

captain. indeed. then american secretary of state james baker said to go, but joseph quote, not one inch 8th, 2 baths. alas, the naive, incompetent food that gorbachev was never demand. it'll be americans that they put back in writing. now turn into the criminal and demands they all the demands for any self respecting country would make, namely, about nato puts into rights in the pledges in rights and that it will not admit ukraine moved over georgia into its ranks. and secondly, that later will withdraw its forces from the russian order. now, nato is actually obliged by the nato russia found in act 1997 to not have its forces in eastern europe and also in the baltic states. which

brings me on to another point. even if nato was to put into writing what the kremlin is demanding it. a pledge by nitro, or really or in writing is actually worthless. because firstly, nature has as well as i already. ready said has violated the nato. russia found an act by decision in it is in the baltic states in eastern europe. and secondly, nature violated its own found in treaty in 1991 when it, on the federal republic of yugoslavia. specifically, it violated also one of the blocks from the treaty which stipulates the block who never use force to resolve a dispute. so quite frankly, a pledge from nature even in writing is absolutely yes, no charge in it. really frustrating. you know, we've been talking for 6 minutes and 3 seconds already in this program. and all of

us have mentioned dates, agreements, or conversations that are documented. and then i look at western coverage and all of this and none of it. but i mean, we're sourcing this all the time on a microscopic level. and again, you know, then, so the, well, we never said, nathan, when expand, what is that supposed to mean? and why should i care? i mean, is natal into international law as it's the prison in which the globe sees its security? absurd. but they don't. they want us to believe this. george? i'm frustrated. i think you're absolutely right. now that has been a creed and of course, what, why they don't getting away with it for 30 years. isn't they were convinced in $990.00, that russia is now

a hopeless weak basket case. it's not half of the size of the soviet union, it doesn't have any kind of economic clout. and you could just treat russia with, i mean, right. and, you know, over over again, russia has, it made the same complaints or was the, the, the, the famous munich security conference speech by letting me put in 2007, and then repeated complaints and, you know, the majors added, you know, this is, this is so boring, went on interested. no, you don't have a leg to stand on because we are much stronger than you are. and what happened is we were finding that, you know, they, there really isn't service for all. right. russia has made a normal leaps in terms of it's a strategic weaponry with these hypersonic weapons more seriously. and then this came out in the video conference between the 2 teen thing. i mean,

the child has said that we support russians call security interest. just say these things, you know, because it likes and the office phrases let it mess that on this issue. we are right behind you. and then if this comes to a confrontation, we will also act in a way that is supportive of russia. so now suddenly, i mean at least some of the bright balls in the west, i realize it, we don't have a 2 front war, and there's no way we can take on 2. so at the same time we can take one of our own. i mean, we used to fighting against 80 or panama yugoslavia or iraq or libya. we're not used to fighting, super back and a to from want to suddenly i lose the spot with leaders realizing that this is really working against us. and when we're going to have to

do something, well, unfortunately that in which the phone books are still mauling these stupid cliches . they don't quite realize that though they felicia is on a long. and mark is the publics around the world are poorly served by constantly, by the media characterizing this is a conflict between russia and ukraine, which it is not the documents that have been sent to united states and nato by russia. have to do with the security across the entire region, landmines, but the media constantly focusing on one issue. these documents were, were composed mostly out of frustration after 30 years in to saying, we need to think about everyone security, but it's never phrased that way. it's never, it's never given to the public that way, and this is a huge this information campaign. they can,

it will say in the 2nd part of the program, what possibly could happen, go ahead months more pay time, western mainstream and major is making the arguments, which is awfully untenable. arguments that the ukrainian or russian peoples are distinct from one another. which of course, is a way of making the case even further for ukraine to join nato. but when you actually inform western journalists about the russian and ukrainian peoples are the same people, they are east florida. then there is silence from the males of these wretched men. and women because they know next to nothing indeed, let me read that they know nothing about the history of russia. they know nothing about the history of ukraine. and when i have told them before in television,

debates that in march of 991. so over 70 percent of the population of the ukrainian soviet socialist republic voted to preserve the union of soviet socialist republics. the truth of the matter is that the only part of ukraine where you will find and see russian that sentiment is the west and most in places such as they both evolved from case and turn a pole. why? because that part of you train was a part of poland and the austrian austere from gary and empire for century. but if you visit odessa, if you visit a car, if you visit person, if you visit nikolai, or if you visit the neat purchase in the neat pipe control, you will find the majority of people that identify themselves as part of the russian. well, that is another reason why this matter for you cripple russia is so very, very the jump in here. we're going to go to

a heartbreaking our break. we're getting your discussion on security. stay with us . ah, ah ah ah ah lose ah,

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just don't hold any world. yes. to see how this thing becomes the advocate, an engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, welcome back to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm funeral about this is the home addition to remind you. we're talking about security for all. ah ok, let's go back to georgia in budapest. ok. in the 1st part of the program, we talked about really the kind of political diplomatic activities that are going on. irrespective of how serious western policy makers are taking any. again, i want to read, reaffirmed everyone watching here is that we've gotten

a lot of mixed messages. we have burrell in the you saying that e u has a stake at the table, which is kind of interesting because they're the ones greatly affected by this. but i mean, policy makers in the binding ministration, kind of a blogs, a response. but you know, we're looking at what russian officials are talking about. if this political, diplomatic power fails, they've already considered appropriate military technical reciprocal measures. i'm quoting a number of russian foreign policy officials. this is serious business, george. yes, it is. and the russians have repeatedly refer to the exemplar of the cuban missile crisis. and in the cuban missile crisis of the kennedy administration laid it on the line to show which is that your stationing missiles in cuba, 90 miles off the coast of florida,

is an existential threat to the united states. and we are not interested in your disingenuous, legalistic arguments. well, these massages are entirely defensive as cuba is a sovereign country and has a right to decide who provides it with misses and so on. basically saying, i did you get this out, we will, and we're going to do it very quickly. and the russians are precise. referring to that, our attitude. now we're just not interested in disingenuous arguments about the sovereign, right? so the ukranian people, which is at the moment, we think that what you're doing in your brain is affecting us in a profound ex, essential way. we will act unilaterally. and that means, you know, you're going to continue to dump on military hardware, build up

a major military infrastructure. you get to station electronic a basis in great, we will actually watch it and we will just take them out. and that's what they will do with the, with doesn't seem to realize that no rush really means it. and then then they're going to act like it. and really this very little to that, that they, there's going to be able to do about it, you know, look at this is again, what so frustrating is it, there is, this is a big blow or a game of chicken here. and it's not me. we have as recently as august 2008, when soccer really foolishly attacked. sell cynthia, thinking it was going to be over in a week in the russians, reacted the and the russians, and made it very clear that they would react, they did. they went into the interior of the country, and just as george was hinting to destroyed all of the inner se, infrastructure,

or all the electronic eavesdropping that was of a laser focused on russia, they destroyed it all up to what i've been, hold up to a $1000000000.00 worth, i think we see the future if nato continues on the power of what it's doing in ukraine, the, as george said, if you don't take it out, we will go ahead. let us not forget that up until the cuban missile crisis america has miss. i was in turkey, which are in the soviet union, and which were ready to be equipped with nuclear warheads refer return to ukraine. the problem here is quite simple. now that ukraine is in the west, fear of influence, the americans will not let the country go easily. therefore, it is down to russia to take a very, very clinical action, because russia will go to war to defend its national security. and ukraine

is roches soft. underbelly, under no circumstances can the russian government allow ukraine to be in night. so often they told us to be even more widely deployed in the country because of that will pose a most perilous threat. so the security of russia and to the security of the russian people. and also the americans could extend their missile defense system in eastern europe into ukraine. and that would mean that the russian strategic nuclear also would be in dia, trouble. so unless the americans relent and put into writing though, as i said earlier wrong, i don't think i pledge from them in writing would mean anything. but if they do put into writing your credit would not be admitted into the ranks of the western military block. and if they do pull their forces back from eastern europe and the

baltic states, then of course, tension will somewhat decrease. but the problem is that in a year from now in 2 years from now, we could be at this position again. that is why decisive action has to be taken by russia, because you, you will come when you kind dos. and so the ranks of nights and by then it just be too late for russia, but i don't think that they will ever come. the ukraine should never have been allowed to enter the west stay of influenced in the 1st place. but now we are in a very dangerous situation and as you sense the chances of an accident to walk great can out between american russia a very distinct i think that i think there are circles in washington that we do want to have a conflict because isn't it really convenient george that all the u. s. won't commit troops. the u. k. will commit troops. ok. but if, if there's,

if there's military action on the part of the russians, which is a reaction to what nato is doing, they will be sanctioned here. i mean i, if i were in the criminal just enough of this, ok, there is a clear, a threat to our national security is existential. and we will address it. ok, whatever the cost, maybe. what i, what bothers me is that i think that the west is just sleep walking. is it, you know, they don't take it seriously. somehow, nato was a virtuous organization, which is really strange, made some military block. ok. you know what it was it on twitter, you know, don't out the, the, your belief belief in the nato. that's bizarre. it's a military alliance here. there is just plenty of people in the west. the done do want to see some kind of conflict here. and because nato was painted itself into a, into a, into a corner here, it must succeed in nato in ukraine or cease to exist. it always creates these,

the 0 some binary decisions george? yeah, i agree. i think there is some calculation that if indeed russia intervened militarily and re, incorporates within russia, the dom boss, then essentially nature will be consolidated. nature will be able to impose it struck only in sanctions on russia, russia, out of the swift financial transaction system. and what would just be for the east was out of the west altogether. i think there's a calculation that the problem that they do has is that if indeed such a scenario plays out, they don't will be shown to them a time yet because they to the what is what is done is an issue also guarantees that was really just pay for point money, right?

you know, the baltic states were under the impression that they were being given actual money, the actual guarantees of security. the suddenly it got are going to be realizing in the way, does anyone really believe nato's ready to go to war? to nuclear war fall is stony or listen, wait here for me, i mean, you know and song, so that was, i think the name to blah, which is what is been going on. these is empty. guarantees that has been issuing like so much candy will be shown to be absolutely ridiculous because they don't know they isn't going to be able to go on behalf of these tiny stage as on it is going to have to stop backtracking and telling is stone. it, which is don't provoke russia. i mean, this is what you're doing is really stupid. you're mistreating your russian nationals. you'll desecrating the world war 2 more questions getting angrier and

angrier about this. and we can come in on your side and say, yeah, we're ready to go and you will, you will be home. so i think, well, the, the beginning of the info later. yeah, i mean marketing agree with george's analysis and they're in the process of finding their own bank slip here because they're putting in all or nothing. ok, as i said at the very top of the program, there's no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is collected security. why can't these kids are not cases and nato understand that, because if you're an egg and usually people think you're smart, these people are not smart. go ahead. it was one thing, peterson, a, so to have expanded into, into poland. it was enough to have expanded into the baltic states, anyone with an ounce of common sense with an ounce of enlightenment at the time the next day to admit,

admitted into the ranks of the western military block would have known that night was over stretching itself and even more so when it comes to ukraine. but alas, we have a situation today at night, which is a monstrously criminal block which is demonstrated is criminality when it bombed the federal republic of yugoslavia. in 1999 is intent on bringing ukraine into its ranks. because that would mean russia is in circles on its west and border from the baltic sea to the black sea. they know the dangers of the game they are playing in washington and in london and of course, in brussels. but their incessant need, their incessant love for influence of fervor, power to save russia, food stamps, if you could result in the most holding off was that europe

has known since the end of the 2nd load will not be rushed as food. that will be no choice, they're going to open up a can of worms george 32nd. but considering the in the entire project for bosnia herzegovina which is completely in tatters, falling apart, that's the future of ukraine if they want to. and then you have a europe that is completely isolated from the world. now russian go ahead. 30 isolated. well, because they are, the geopolitical forces have very dramatically deteriorated, but where there is china and china and russia and now, oh certainly, strategic allies. so any conflict that's going to take place in europe. good, very well. be in a 2nd from opening up by china. china is that it will help a anyway, and therefore, you know, they'll be good. they'll be a conflict over taiwan. and then what he's like is the was going to do. and so it's

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