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all the countries and it is used for cross talk in a few i'm time you gave us can catch up with the latest episode of running gating meal harvey will take the whole seat here in the studio in and out of time to guide you through the morning global news headline from the t one myself. good not ah ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. there is no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is always collective. this is precisely how russia abuse, endless. western hostility and nato expansion to the east. moscow is presented ways to avoid conflict and assure all security is the west asleep at the switch.

ah, discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, marcus papadopoulos in london. he is a historian, analyst, and author of the book arise, receive the return of russia to world politics. and in budapest we have to work semi well. he is a podcast to read the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals are generally cross off rules and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate it. i start out in budapest here. george, it's been about a week now since the russians have sent 2 proposals to the united states and nato. we've gotten mixed reactions from the foreign policy blog appear apparently in july, there'll be some kind of talks in geneva again, really that information on that. and it seems to me that the,

with the russians have made a very clear case that they feel that their security is being threatened. and they have a solution to improve and protect the security of all. and we can go into that. but the reaction to it is, is mediocre and best. and the last thing i want to make this clear to all our viewers, the last thing the russians want to hear is, yeah, we'll sit down and talk. the time to talk is come to an end. their documents on the table and go through them and let sign them publicly george a. i think that's exactly what the russians saying, which is that we have been saying the same thing over and over again starting from 991. when a go or assurances from the west of the west will not expand into space left awfully withdrawal. so ok. and with

complaint again and again, the west is treated complaints with content and just say, you know, you lost the cold war. you know, then the brakes and now that the geopolitical situation has changed very much in an adverse fashion. where was this song playing this game of coming up with these silly, legalistic arguments like, well, every country has the summer and right to decide its own security arrangement. and in any case we, we never promised you anything. and even if we didn't promise you anything, we didn't put it in writing. and in any case, it was a defensive alliance. how much it make span, all the way to central asia, the chinese, all those. it's still a defensive alliance. i feel like coming up with this kind of nonsense and russia just saying we're in no mood for a so i think you said these are the meetings in january or something will entail

the west coming up with the usual complaint. all you interfering in our elections and you're spreading distance nation by r t, and we don't like the way you move your armies around with borders. and it always comes up with the sort of disingenuous argument. i think the russian just say enough already. you know, we're out of here, you know, and mark, it's all a while all the while offensive, very material are being sent to you ukraine. there's different source thing about the number of clinical specialists and advisors. and again, in the possibility of some type of missile systems me, the time for talking is over because i think that really frustrated me. most of george and i talked about this almost on a daily basis, is that the kremlin has been telegraphing this intensely through all of its highest

officials and its media. and it doesn't seem to get triple through it to western policy makers, is if they just don't take any of the seriously your thoughts markets, let us be and practically clear about something pizza, the crises. so if a ukraine is in the show on accounts of the west engineers who in care in february of 2014, which pro western and russian government power. and in the long term, it is a result of nato expansion into eastern europe and into the baltic states. something that the americans really assured me call gorbachev in 1990 was not happened. indeed. then american secretary of state james baker said to go, but joseph quote, not one inch eastwards, but alas, the naive, incompetent fool that gorbachev was never demand. it'll be americans that they put

back in writing. now turn into the criminal and demands they all the demands for any self respecting country would make, namely, about nato puts into rights in the pledges in rights and that it will not admit ukraine. georgia into its ranks. and secondly, that later will withdraw its forces from the russian order. now, nature is actually obliged by the nato, russia found in act 19. 97 to not have its forces in eastern europe and also in the baltic states. which brings me on to another point. even if nato was to put into writing what the kremlin is demanding of it, a pledge by night. so normally all in writing is actually worthless because firstly, nature has, as well as i already said,

has violated the nato russia found in act by decision. it is in the baltic states in eastern europe, and secondly, nature violated its own found in treaty in 1991 when it on the federal republic of yugoslavia. specifically, it violated article one of the blocks found in treaty which stipulates the block who never use force to resolve a dispute. so quite frankly, peter, a pledge from nature even in writing is absolutely yes. no charge to find another way to find really frustrating. you know, we've been talking for 6 minutes and 3 seconds already in this program. and all of us have mentioned dates, agreements, or conversations that are documented, i mean, and then i look at western coverage and all of this and none of it. but, i mean, we're sourcing this all the time on a microscopic level. and again,

you know then, so the well, we never said, nathan, when expand what is that supposed to mean? and why should i care? i mean, is natal into international law as if it's the prism in which the globe sees its security absurd, but they don't. they want us to believe this. george, i'm frustrated. i think you have absolutely right. now that has been a need to create. and of course, what, why does the getting away with it for 30 years? is that they were convinced in 990, that russia is now a hopeless week basket case. it's not often the size of the soviet union, it doesn't have any kind of economic power. and you could just treat russia with, i mean, right? and, you know, over over again, russia as it made the same complaints or, you know, obviously the, the, the famous munich security conference speech by going to be put in,

in 2007. and they've been repeated complaints and, you know, and they does that. and you know, this is, this is so boring, went on interested, you know, you don't have a leg to stand on because we are much stronger than you are. and what is happen is we were finding that, you know, they to ready isn't service for all russia has made a normal leaps in terms of it's a strategic weaponry with these type of fun weapons more seriously. and then this came out in the video conference between the 2 t and she's in pain. i mean, the china that we support roches pool security interest generally just say these things, you know, because it likes and the office phrases that it meant that on this issue we are right behind you. and then it comes to a confrontation. we will also act in

a way that is supportive of russia. so now suddenly, i mean at least some of the bright balls in the west. i realize a, we do have a 2 front war and there's no way we can take on 2. so at the same time, we don't think one of our own, i mean, we used to fighting against them 80, or panama a, or a iraq or libya. we're not used to thinking about and a to ross. so suddenly the, the smarter western leaders are realizing that this is really working against us. and we're going to have to do something. but i brought you into the dim, which the sultan bugs built, mouthing these stupid cliches. they don't quite realize that those the basal li shades on are long gone, and mark is the public's around the world,

or are barley served by constantly, by the media character. right? and this is a conflict between russia and ukraine, which it is not the documents that have been sent to the united states and nato by russia have to do with security across the entire you raisins, landman, but the immediate constantly focusing on one issue. these documents were, were composed mostly i had a frustration after 30 years, and i think we need to think about everyone security, but it's never phrase that way. it's never, it's never given to the public that way. and this is a huge, this information pain. they get it, what we'll say in the 2nd part of the program, what possibly could happen, go ahead months as a more pe time western mainstream major is making that the arguments which is awfully untenable. arguments that the ukrainian and russian peoples are

distinct from one another. which of course, is a way of making the case even further for ukraine to join nato. but when you actually inform western journalists about the russian and ukrainian peoples are the same people, they are east florida. then there is silence from the males of these wretched men and women, because they know next to nothing. indeed, let me read that they know nothing about the history of russia. they know nothing about the history of ukraine. and when i have told them before in television, debates that in march of 1991, so over 70 percent of the population of the ukrainian soviet socialist republic voted to preserve the union of soviet socialist republics. the truth of the matter is that the only part of ukraine where you will find an russian that sentiments is

the western most in places such as they both evolved from case and turn the pole. why? because that part of ukraine was a part of poland and the austrian austere from gary and empire for centuries. but if you visit odessa, if you visit, cause, if the visit person, if you visit nikolai, or if you visit the neat purchase in the neat pipe control, you will find the majority of people that identify themselves as part of the russian. well, that is another reason why this matter for you cripple russia is so very, very quick to jump in here. we're going to go to a heartbreaking that hard break. we're getting your discussion on security all say was ah, with

was diagnosed with cancer in 2009 when the doctors told me the cancer was incurable . i knew i had to make a change. so i decided to travel to one of the most toxic places in america, florida. one of florida is biggest industries and best kept secrets, is fostering in the biggest player in 80. $5000000000.00 industry is mosaic, and i, there are reports of millions of gallons of contaminated water now flowing into the florida aquifer may pro, there's a chronic i don't love to hear that word polish thing, but that's what it is. i'm in 2013 my all our family dog. my brother was 21 years old, myself and my father were all a whole lot and they could play. right. yeah. yeah. maybe they'll actually we're that far

hill is more important than ah welcome back to cross stock. were all things are considered? i'm peter lavelle. this is the home addition to remind you. we're talking about security for all. ah okay, let's go back to georgia in budapest. ok, in the 1st part of the program, we talked about really the kind of political diplomatic activities that are going on irrespective of how serious western policy makers are taking. and again, i want to read, reaffirmed everyone watching here is that we've gotten a lot of mixed messages. we have a barrel in the you saying that he has a stake at the table, which is kind of interesting because they're, the ones are greatly affected by this. but i mean,

the policy makers in the binding ministration, kind of a blogs, a response. but, you know, we're looking at what russian officials are talking about. if this political, diplomatic power fails, they've already considered appropriate military technical reciprocal measures. i'm quoting a number of russian foreign policy officials. this is serious business. george. yes it is. and the russians have repeatedly refer to the exemplar of the cuban missile crisis in the cuban missile crisis for the kennedy administration, laid it on the line to show which is that your stationing missiles in cuba, 90 miles off the coast of florida, is an existential threat. to the united states and we are not interested in your disingenuous, legalistic arguments. well,

these massages are entirely defensive as cuba is a sovereign country and has a right to decide who provides it with miss and so on. basically saying, either you get this out or we will, and we're going to do it very quickly. and russians are precise, referring to that, our attitude. now we're just not interested in disingenuous arguments about the sovereign, right? so the ukranian people, which is at the moment we saying that what you're doing in your grade is affecting us in a profound ex, essential way. we will act unilaterally. and that means, you know, if you're going to continue to dump a military hardware level major military infrastructure, you get to station electronic a basis. if you great, we will ask you a lot for that and we will just take them out. and that's what they will do with

the, with doesn't seem to realize that no rush really means it. and then then they're going to act like it. and really, this is very little to then that they, there's going to be able to do about it, you know, look at this is again, what so frustrating is it, there is, this is a big blow or a game of chicken here. and it's not me. we have as recently as august 2008, when soccer really foolishly attacked, sell cynthia, thinking it was going to be over the weekend. the russians reacted the and the russians and made it very clear that they would react, they did. they went into the interior of the country, and just as george was hinting to destroyed all of the in a say, infrastructure, all the electronic eavesdropping there was of a laser focused on russia. they destroyed it all up to what i've been, hold up to a $1000000000.00 worth. i think we see the future if nato continues on the power of

what it's doing in ukraine, the, as george said, if you don't take it out, we will go ahead. let us not forget that up until the cuban missile crisis america has miss. i was in turkey, which are i in the soviet union, and which were ready to be equipped with nuclear warheads refer, returning to ukraine. the problem here is quite simple. now that ukraine is in the west, fear of influence, the americans will not let the country go easily. therefore, it is down to russia to take a very, very clinical action. because russia will go to war to defend its national security. and ukraine is russia's soft underbelly, under no circumstances can the russian government allow ukraine to be night. so often nature forces to be even more widely deployed in the country because of that

will pose a most perilous threat. so the security of russia and to the security of the russian people. and also the americans could extend their missile defense system in eastern europe into ukraine. and that would mean that the russian strategic nuclear also would be in dire trouble. so unless the americans relent and put into rights in though, as i said earlier, wrong, i don't think i played from them in writing would mean anything. but if they do put into rights in your credit, would not be admitted into the ranks of the western military block. and if they do pull their forces back from eastern europe and the state, then of course tension will somewhat decrease. but the problem is that in a year from now, in 2 years from now, we could be at this position again,

that is why decisive action has to be taken by russia, because you will come when you dos. and so the ranks of nature. and by then it just be too late for russia, but i don't think that they will ever come. the ukraine should never have been allowed to enter the west, stay of influenced in the 1st place. but now we are in a very dangerous situation. as you said, the chance is often accidental breaking out between american russia a very distinct. i think, i think there are circles in washington that we do want to have accomplish because isn't it really convenient, george, that all the u. s. will commit troops the u. k. will commit troops. ok, but if, if there's, if there's military action on the part of the russians, which is a reaction to what nato is doing, they will be sanctioned here. i mean i, if i were in the criminal and just enough of this, ok, there is a clear, a threat to our national security is existential. and we will address it. ok,

whatever the cost, maybe what i, what bothers me is that i think that the, the west is just sleep walking. it's and you know, they don't take it seriously. somehow, nato was a virtuous organization which is really strange, made some military block. ok. you know what it was it on, on twitter, you know, don't out the, the, your belief belief in the nato. that's bizarre. it's a military alliance here. there is just plenty of people on the west the done. do you want to see some kind of conflict here? because nato was painted itself into a, into a, into a corner here. it must succeed in nato in ukraine or cease to exist. it always creates these, the 0 some binary decisions george? yeah, i agree. i think there is some calculation that is indeed russian intervene militarily

and re, incorporates within russia. the dumbass then essentially nature will be consolidated. nature will be able to impose it struck coney and sanctions on russia, a russia out of the swift financial transaction system. and what will just be for the east and out of the west altogether. i think there's a calculation of that. the problem that they do has is that if indeed such a scenario plays out, they will be shown to them a time yet because they to will it it. what is, what is it it's done is an issue. also, it guarantees that was really just pay for point money, right? you know, the baltic states were under the impression that they were being given actual money, the actual guarantees of security. the certainly here are going to be realizing in the way, does anyone really believe nato's ready to go to war,

to nuclear war for tony or little wait here for me. i mean the, you know, and song, so that was the name to blah, which is what is been going on. these is empty guarantees that has been issuing like so much candy will be shown to be absolutely ridiculous because you don't, i'm going to be, isn't going to be able to go on behalf of these tiny stage as on is going to have to stop backtracking. and telling the stone in which it don't pro rush. i mean, this is what you're doing is really stupid. you mistreating your russian nationals . you'll desecrating the will to more questions getting angrier and angrier about this. and we can come in on your side and say, yeah, we're ready to go and you will, you will be home. so i think, well, be the beginning of the info later. yeah,

i mean marketing agree with george's analysis there in the process of finding their own things here because they're putting in all or nothing. ok, as i said at the very top of the program, there's no such thing as unilateral security. all real security is collected security. why can't these kids are not cases and nato understand that, because if you're an egg and usually people think you're smart, these people are not smart. go ahead. it was one thing, peterson, a, so to have expanded into, into poland. it was a novel to have expanded into the baltic states, anyone with an ounce of common sense with an ounce of enlightenment at the time the baltic states was met, admitted into the ranks of the western military block would have known that night was over stretching itself and even more so when it comes to ukraine. but alas, we have a situation today at night, which is

a monstrously criminal block which is demonstrated criminality when it bombs, the federal republic of yugoslavia. in 1999 is intent on bringing ukraine into its ranks. because that would mean russia is in circles on the western border from the arctic sea to the black sea. they know the dangers of the game. they are playing in washington and in london and of course in brussels. but that incessant need their incessant love for fervor influence a fervent power to save russia. food stamps. if you could result in the most holing off was that europe has known since the end of the 2nd model that will not be rushed as food. that will be no choice. i'm going to open up a can of worms george 32nd,

considering the in the entire project for bosnia herzegovina which is completely in tatters, falling apart. that's the future of ukraine if they want to. and then you'll have a europe that is completely isolated from the world. now russia go ahead. 30 isolated. well, because the geopolitical forces have very dramatically deteriorated for the west of there is china and china, russia, and now on the sunny strategic allies. so any conflict that's going to take place in europe. good. that could very well be a 2nd from opening up by china. john, is that it will help russia anyway. and therefore, you know, they'll be, they'll be a conflict over taiwan. and then what exactly is the was going to do? and so it's a huge gap stopping humiliation for the last. so it's a very serious think. hands on that. no. because i think it's correctly. i want to take my guess in london in budapest are be worth watching. iraq,

you see an ex family member. ah, ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation, community? are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the

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