[000:00:00;00] ah, did i mention it as senior watching a special edition of going underground on the 1st day of 2020 two's gregorian calendar, the team and i will be back for a brand new season on wednesday, the 12th of january. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows from this season this week. so a meeting that could have designed the future of our species on planet earth, the virtual meeting between economic superpowers of the 20th and 21st century, the u. s. and china, as the contours of this century become clear between shanghai cooperation

organisation, nations, and nato. join now from rome, by the former adviser to the european union's i representative for common foreign and security policy and x m. i 6 official. alice to croak out to thanks so much for coming back on, you know, biden's, the national security adviser said america is not seeking to contain china. it's not a new cold war. simultaneously have briefings to journalists for me. anonymous senior us officials at the the aim of the virtual meeting was not to ease tensions a sure. but what that means, what's your take on the virtual meeting between she's in, bring and jo bud. i don't think it went well and i don't think very much was agreed kind of thing on the meeting. and i followed a very ted, she telephone call between brings and the chinese foreign minister on the 13th a few days before to prepare for prepare for the meeting. and then the been

a harsh words coming out of china in the way of the meeting. essentially the, the chinese, certainly the foreign minister was saying very clearly to bring listen, you're not going to have a good relationship with us. you're not going to have the sort of relationship competition if you like. well, no competition. while the explosive issue of taiwan continues and in the subsequent pos, they made it very clear that what they felt was in an editorial in the global times . they describe as this was hypocritical, what, what he said was nonsense underlined. the fact that this is a very serious issue, that the confrontation could come with the united states over the straits of

taiwan. but if america who goes on supporting secession isn't in taiwan, if it goes on encouraging attitude, then we have long prepared for wall. and i do, we don't know how to get through to the well or it isn't ty paid, but this is very fair. it's very harris indeed. so i think that was it a climb down immediately afterwards, then because the bide was reported the saying, look, there is no way that the u. s. a. is imminently about to recognize a taiwan like 50 another, arguable us broccoli nations do. well that's, i mean, you know, they actually have been speaking with 2 phases on this. the president keeps saying, of course, one china policy exist. we're not changing the one china policy. but then again, you have jake sullivan,

the us security advisor in an interview on cnn with korea was saying very clearly listen, what we mean by managing this competition is if you, night states for the possible future sess, the parameters of its own and its allies interest we set the parameters and then when exactly, he said, yeah, but what have you actually agree during this time? what? what did you negotiate with china? what come up and sullivan said, just very blank. pay him wrong question. donna asked me that question. wrong metric that was, that was the tone of the the, the sullivan interview and fame equally, you know, not only always going to the people order

the guy lines for the board of the framework for the global order in our interests. but it's also going to support free liberal mark everywhere. in other words, if we're going to be, if you like, if you like it was going to be a criteria or a framework for the lease or financial leads to continue to invest and explore capital, where they choose more of the way the china was expected to to manage with this except the global order for this coming period, and then to perhaps to be a to cooperate as bite and said to them. and as jake fellow them said, and within the framework within this new global fact. so our interest then

there may be areas where we can cooperate, trump put sanctions, whereas biden is sending war ships along with verse johnson worship, elizabeth grove, carrie plus these sorts of threats and saying, cooperating economically. that's exactly. i mean, every, every week there is a new move on taiwan, a sort of incremental chop chop chop as it moves closer and closer. of course, on the one hand, america says that it still supports the one china policy, and they agree mm month subsequently. but every so often there is a new element. the type pay off is a cultural office is going to be designated instead of taiwan represented. this, there are more visits by sea merrick and fishers to taiwan ships go through regularly,

the taiwan straits to sort of to emphasize the freedom of fading. and people come like the australian prime minister come to taiwan and say. busy well, of course i can see it would be possible either for australia or america, not just for taiwan. should china attack it or invaded ok, well, so since this was causing them, the chinese, this great anxiety about similar tenuously. while that's happening in the south china sea or the indo pacific, as, as we now call it the all because veal, the pull out of a get this done. i mean the, obviously the wieder eastern turkey is done islamic movement has been taken off the u. s. terrorist list and china is putting $2000000.00 of investment need to have it done one f, b i. whistleblower sybil. edmund sydney to seize. jang is the next taiwan is

actually happening simultaneously. is that credible that? i think this is very credible because actually in part of sullivan is told, he said part of setting the part of setting the skew global order. in the c n n interview. he said, he said also that it would be based on enshrining the text of the declaration, the universal declaration of human rights into every international institution, as well as into the order. i think it's very clear that it was an asian along with climate change is a weaponized ation of china. and yes, i think that precisely this process, what do i call it?

i would call it the cost of i is ation of taiwan ukraine. and also probably the province justice, kosovo, was started or was getting full diplomatic support saying we support if you're right, cost of law and nationally allied. and then it moved to the next stage of asking that they should be going in every part of the international community. i don't think it's just infused to stay from what she said. exactly, but he said there's no reason why taiwan shouldn't be in all those committees and institutions of the united nation. they should be there on the civil a, a trade in every institution. and we support their inclusion in a substantial way in the united nations at every level. of course, he says, you know, they can't be representative of china. but they must be included in,

or this is the cost of or playbook being repeated if like for taiwan. and ultimately i suspect it hasn't done it yet, but changing problems will be, will follow probably for from bad. so yes, i think that is a correct assessment. i want to get back actually to that causation phrase, you're using the quick sidebar for some of you is watching. when you use phrases like weapon, zation of human rights or weapon zation of or what if the city, what, what does the weapon is? ation of human rights mean to those who are watching circle, mainstream media, of course, genocide, engine jang, let alone anywhere in the world where nato opposes. oh, there are. i mean, a question of human rights. chinese would say very clearly how we manage our human rights. isn't the amount of for us and how we deal with it,

just like every country has its own human rights problems. the west is not immune from having human rights problems. we only have to look back at the things such as rendition that took place in the middle east, where the west would kidnap take hosted people and then render them for torture in foreign prisoners. i think that would be testified as a human rights abuse. so the problem with that is essentially, is that, is it being used to sort of target a particular country and a particular in a particular way? is it looking for human rights abuse in order then to hold china accountable and then put sanctions? that's the process we're talking about, more sanction being put on china, more isolation on china, trying to push it out to be international order and into isolation

of human rights. and of course, you know, although human rights federation, i'm sure it's a very fine document. but different countries, different civilizations have different view. china tends to pride social cohesion, the community as its human rights. i mean, the rights of communities, the rights of the people as a whole, we in the west tenants reprice the individual human rights, individual identity rights, gender, right? well, if you, i mean, now we have so many more of these identity issues coming up. all of them can be used to put sanctions or penalize or in the other forms of the right punishment from the state. that's what weapon i sation of human rights, which i mean, i think i support support all of them. but i suppose the point is it's in the of

the beholder and it goes guantanamo is, is open as a group. i'll stop you there more from the former advisor to be in union. hi representative. the common forum and security policy out of his brain for i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except when such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence and the point obviously is to create trust rather than fear . a job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with

a robot must protect its own existence with o at bay new year special kaiser it bard with the one and only gerald salenti or it's nader of the trans forecast. man, you know stuff ah, welcome back. i'm still here before the british diplomat allister group. why do you think the bible administration does not understand that if you empower certain groups that are necessarily pro washington's values, it can blow back after all the failures in recent decades. i mean column pals ex, steve has to have larry wilkerson saying, buddha afghan is gone very aware,

the cia was very aware of the week as being able to we used to destabilize beijing directly. these guys know the dangers of supporting is the mist extremism. for some notional idea of a geopolitical supremacy. i'm not sure, i mean post for i think they're all great, dangerous, very much stuff in your christ, taiwan. and then other places that are all great, dangerous, that this can get out of control. it's very hard to manage the things when they stop, particularly ukraine, because the government there is not in control. the administration is not really who has control of the country. but what i'm really trying to say to you is that i think what we're seeing is mckennon by certainly parts of elements in washington to create the sense that america back,

americans on paul. so, and to do that, they want to be quite aggressive and forceful. and so they, to these issues such as ukraine bell arose with russia and they're doing that, the key, russia on the back foot off balance to keep china off balance. but also particularly to try and give the vitamin ministration a success foreign policy. even if for foreign policy success into a strategic blog. i mean, it's a sense of losing the war to gain the political advantage to come back and say this was a great success. and this is really some of what's been happening in a way the night is paid is strategically way. but sometimes they can go back to medically and say, well, you know, we really gave the iranians what or in the last talk we ready?

did. we tell china we cochise or buy one attack me and we goes and it's genocide and it's not acceptable. and that's very important in the domestic context of united states. does it help you? does it how the united states strategically probably the office is actually seen over this period because that sort of process started during the clinton administration. and actually america has got weak if you're in spirit, has from god's congress. look at the middle east, look at the, the, the coming together. i think it was even 20 years ago. people want that the sort of short term success. it's all it would do would be to turn china and russia against the united states and even possibly could have been working together against us. that's what's happened. and when it comes to the conservation that you were mentioning earlier, this time around, obviously, i mean, the china will remember it's embassy being destroyed,

as nato broke up. your love you at that time in the ninety's and poochie. and i think roy's remembers that russia should never have abstained on that un security council resolution on libya. so it's a bit different this time then major in moscow, up, up to the tricks that washington my play and really will react differently. her and i mean this is what china said to, to, to bring them to, to support sullivan. you know, we're not doing this ala carte foreign policy where you just pick, we don't like to cooperate with us. but on the other issues, it's a open warfare. we'll just go for you on human rights on trade, on whatever us stealing our secrets, we will, we will pursue it. and they said, sorry, thank you. we don't do that. i don't, we put all the issues and we have a discussion. and we do not accept neither russian, china,

except the right of the united states to determine the global or rules based order that the united states does not have the right to determine the rules for a global order is not going to be acceptable to either of those state and they rejected very please, this is a big change because i say this very, very, very clearly when they send n voice, when, when the showman goes to china victorian newland, they say, look, here's our interest. when all prepared to talk to about this, if you want to talk about taiwan, you want to be talk about these other issues. there are private or internal masses on call in time by, by victoria, be very tough. be begin. look at her, a leaked phone call about the european union on line. i suppose. i don't know about the refugee crisis there, but i mean, here the english channel enormous numbers of people fleeing. well,

from the was started by tony blair and, and george w bush all that time ago. but actually the news here is not mean about the refugees across the english channel. i'll give you far more coming for france. it's about, of course, as you mentioned earlier, the better roost. poland border is putin responsible for hybrid warfare, as we're being told every day. here is a vanguard of this kind of opposition to washington's resurgent imperial policies. no, i mean there's obviously a zone assuming something of a stand off to pro magic stand or taking place between better bruce and the european union. but when it started off, you know, we were told to, we're happy 4000 refugees on the other side of the fence to poem. now it turns out that there are only 2000 that let's put this into context. is us going to be, is this hybrid war,

this going to bring down the or can union or you would know better than me, but as a pain, experiencing one house refugees arriving in a day. not over this period. i think the refugee thing is slowly being the escalated and why in the refugees going that if not someone is recruiters of the refugees have in mind there are certain countries set up, you know, you get to open germany. obviously, what britain united states from the thought. so why should you try and find whatever route make and get and they will start off the refugee sitting on the roof side of the border and made it very clear that destination is not. poland is small . the latter, there destination is me quite yours, german and maybe pull him in the way we get the we got the idea on our tv screen.

this is putins monster plan. it's not a, it's not, i mean, you know, to have some refugees. i mean, germany's let in a 1000000. i mean, it's not. and anyway, it won't happen because they're slowly re penetrating them. shanker to the high representative of your sources are less manager. we need some help and we'll do it and we'll, we'll manage this. i think actually trying to sanction the airlines is actually going to the europe shooting itself in the foot. because if they do that, then not only belarus but russia will probably cut off the space to european airlines. if that is what is done to them. and then are, all those british airlines trying to fly to asia will have 5 hours extra flying time. whereas emirates of the other asian airlines will be flying direct deer opinions will have

a big loss on tourism and on passengers flying to asia. i mean, i know i mentioned my 6 earlier, i know you can talk with my 6. what do you think the fact that journalists report about all these things about may jing about moscow in these ways are because they are influenced by hollywood ideas of james bond. is it this idea of the evil bond villain that goes through journalist heads? it is. let alone politicians ads, it is a problem. i do think there's an extraordinary sense where you have the sort of me that taken up these narrative and they go even when there's no real basis of it. we've just seen one just now. for example, you've all seen russian troops on ukraine, border masses of troops on the border. i mean, the reality is the truth that there are 200 kilometers away from the board. no,

putin is not intending to take over the ukraine. what he's wired to fight. and what he's concerned about is whether in a desperate attempt to get nato and european support from imploding authority and is going to try and use us as the tool in which to extract further support. nate has already said it also remember that defense defense preset that to about 3 weeks ago in europe has been selling them or women's merican for promising the more weapons to try and reunite reintegrate dumbass you crave. i'm putin has no desire to go and take on, you know, the mess that is ukraine, unless there was a real fear that forces back by the west, we're going to overrun the dog. and then it's, you know,

it's the old story that you saw in britain with the falkland islands. it's about kitchen, k, k, most of these people. many, if you go to moscow, most russians have got a cousin or relative that listen don't boss. i mean, it's a russian speaking area totally, russian speaking, these russian currency and they're all closely related. so it's very difficult for, for putin would be to ignore the invasion of the don't boss very difficult. and that and that low intensity now battling is continued out for years. obviously, britain arming ukraine. optimism perhaps here the world is finances aren't just from the military. industrial complex obviously, could change come from multinational corporations lobbying nato governments, one k street in washington over here in london saying look good. we're starting to

lose money on the considerations of ever more sanctions against aging in moscow and iran even could it be multi nationals rather than it seems, democratic populations, pressuring politicians, it to some kind of determined. i think the most important thing actually happened in the, in the outcome of the american departure a couple because what we saw enough to was something quite striking. the shanghai cooperation organized, they merged with the east asian european economic community, which merge with here. so that is a security organization comprises much of what was he stood southern south asian, a soviet union into a single unit that embraces something like 53 percent of the global population and

25 more percent of g d p, a fast growing area. iran has, but i believe it pakistan is a member of it. and then saudi arabia has to be a dialogue, egypt to us to be a dial up. and i think what we're seeing is a potential potential, perhaps for new security architecture to emerge embracing parts perhaps of the middle east too. and that's quite striking that that could be like the mechanism that could reduce some of the tensions to be used in this way. and it's clearly going to change the prospect for a country like iraq. they'll be a pipeline, i'm sure going across from iran through afghanistan, long border kennestone and china, north tubs, i line cordele, east west corridor. all of these things are ongoing. i mean, that is an area where,

you know, development is, is going to move very, very rapidly. rusher is just degree to invest hugely in the can be all fine in the uranium take to the caspian sea. huge amount money. so i think we're going to see a big change from this, this guthrie. is it going to be? i think this is why it is so much more confidence in russia and china. just say to america, know, and united states increasingly are just doing the same. i'm sorry, but we don't accept that you set the the roadmap, you on setting the global rules for, for, for the world. because there are other states who equally powerful and also because the strategic balance power as shifted. america has a few right, is behind in the military sense,

as well as in the technology and in the assay, correct. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of the last few who will be back on wednesday, the 12th of january. but until then stay safe and you can watch all our interviews by subscribing by youtube channel and falling us on all our social media. ah, ah, ah, with join me every thursday on the alex salmon? sure. i'll be speaking to guess on the world of politics. sport business,

i'm sure business. i'll see you then. ah ah. world celebrates the new year with spectacular fireworks coming up this out for you . we look at some of the positive predictions being made for 2022. with financial experts forecasting the global economy set to grow while inflation sets of for my bait, according to one major investment bank. and of course, we also review the this just gone with a look at some of the big political spots that unfolded, including a controversial defense deal that saw frogs loggerheads its allies with