she's in no position to be extra either to a prison system or, you know, as the one in the us. and, you know, i just like to take a step back here. the actual discussion is that he should not even be in prison. why? why is he being, you know, and neither in the 1st place, given that he's not committed any crime was, you know, this is what is better. uh, better as you know, he's a flight risk because he sought to political asylum and gained it in london. and all his journalism, as it were, does not protect him from the u. s. espionage act. that's what judgment as a rates are said. that's why it's only as help. that's a consideration. i'm really glad you mentioned that because that's the scandal in the states. if you look at that 1st instance judgement, that was, that's not a victory for the julian of sanji. campbell for during the suns himself or for press freedom and for that matter, it is a truck. because in a legal proceeding, french tradition always goes through 2 or 3 incidents by not extra riding him in

the 1st madison court level. what that did legally speaking, is that he puts the us in the position to appeal. otherwise, had he been extradited than julia sans would have appealed and he would have brought all those questions of press freedom of political offence, political motivations in that prosecution. the attentive fascination and kidnapping, all those things he would have brought to the high court, mary of judges, which much stronger independence and expertise. but it was quite smart by the u. s . and the u. k. 2 to have it arranged the other one. so they don't extradite him. in the 1st instance, they basically confirmed a whole narrative about the espionage act acquisitions of everything and set the precedent criminalizing basic the journalist for that matter. but they will only bring those questions to the appeals court that they want traffic concentric, but just to the us under state of health and their prison conditions. and now my new their prison. this is,

is absolutely in their control. they can make diplomatic guarantees at any stage of to any extent, who neutralize those concerns, they can offer medical services, they can offer no guarantees with regard to the conditions of retention, which makes it very difficult from a high court. now to refuse, extra she yes, james, the excuse. he seemed to be saying we have a psychiatric asylum. we can throw julian sans into if he has mental problems once extradited and given what you just said, is it sensible for wiki leaks, lawyer edwards. gerald, you see to me in a way, excepting the criminalization of journalism and appealing to the judges, all right, and burnett that look and he shouldn't be extradited because of that early a judgement. and this is what it is you, you know, the global sales, you know, cases of torture all around the world. isn't it more normal for a defense barrister to be claiming this court isn't even as something that should be should be respected. you already criminalize journalism,

your judicial system. we shouldn't accept anything from this court. well, the question is that the moral stance? but the question is, how much is that gonna help julian? the sounds and the legal proceedings? and yes, it is a scandal. but, you know, the espionage act in the u. s. in itself is campbell, the official secrets act in the u. k. in itself is a scandal because both of them criminalized the disclosure of secret information irrespective of public interest. the high court cast changed and they can certainly they can certainly, you know, be reasonable and apply the law to the, to the medical states that you know junior passengers and they know exactly what the prison conditions are like in the us. as far as i know, the defense team has also crossed the peel. it's just at the cross appeal, which then brings all those other questions before. but that obviously will only be dealt with if the u. s. is successful in its before we get to that stage just to be

clear as things stand right now in london, if you were about to suddenly i don't know that show me a tv set of reuters journalists being gun down by helicopter gunship for both of us could be tortured, we could be subject to a u. s. secretary of state claiming that we were a non state or sale actors worthy of assassination on the streets of london that, that president has already been said and could be extradited. that, that's all fine, is just the suicide risk. well, you know, think about the murder of george floyd, which was recorded on video and only because of that video check that clip. we had the evidence that george floyd was actually murdered and there was no, you know, that was not a medical crisis. it was not a case of self defense or something. it was just no justification. and but he back a public protests against santa bullies police brutality which, you know,

the authorities not being able to avoid prosecuting those official. unfortunately, in the case of collateral murder, there are simply has been a completely different narrative of the us going out parents. and, you know, fighting terrorism and so on. and it's very, very difficult for an average citizen who doesn't have privileged access to, you know, what actually happens behind the curtains of policy making. they actually believe that narrative, very difficult for a late lay people to actually understand that full picture, i believe what the mainstream process is talent. you know, when you started your special united nations investigation into the case of judy and assange, you were, you weren't alone. they lots of supported julian sons, but there weren't so many groups to day. every major human rights and free speech organization in the world. a backs your allegations arguably have. why then

do you think it's not a big a mainstream media story? it is here in r t. i cannot speak for him. i think it's a scandal that it isn't. because i mean, this is the absolutely key case on press freedom on freedom of expression, but far beyond on human rights and human dignity on the integrity of our rule of law. institutions of our judicial use to independence of out or destroys the transparency, right? to know that people have a right to know what their governments are doing with the tax money and the power that we the people delegates to our government. this is about our rights. you know, it's about your ability to oversee, to control you know, the integrity of, of, of your government. because if that becomes a crime with union essentially done, you know, nothing that he has been accused except receiving and publishing evidence for

leslie has been proven. you know, this whole sexual allegations have been dropped by sweden, not because it's, you know, expired or something like this, but because they didn't have enough evidence. even charge them of any offense whatsoever. after 9 years, this was instrumental iced to demonize. you know, this, the thing about human having blood is, i mean, it's just ridiculous claim because we know that the u. s. government for, you know, what an a decade has not been able to advance a single case individual who may have been put in danger. because of those publications even know now that during the central, not even the 1st person who published those and redacted files. but he made them accessible on wiki leaks as well. after they have been made accessible by a password being published by 2 guardian journalists and stayed in the weekly

journal for talking in germany. and she did so only after he had taken contact with the white house and tried to do damage control because of the, the leaks by those other actors. so what we know is that the evidence that she has that's not about people being threatened. that's people being portrait, people being great. people being murdered, you know, under front of her running camera. and these people have never been trusted. have never been how to account. and so this is really what this is about. it's about protecting to impunity. criminals of corrupt politicians, this is what this is about. so we want to intimidate the person who has come up with a general idea how to use the internet to allow whistleblowers to remain anonymous while transmitting, you know, millions of files that prove a government misconduct. obviously if that proliferates and the half of the only

one we can leaks that we have $15000.00 which leaks around the world. then you know, the kind of security establishment with their secrecy, they can pack up and leave with their business model. they really have to start then applying democratic principles being subject to democratic oversights, respect to rule of law, and that's just not today's reality. his finely adam, i don't know whether that means the journalist himself, their minds are arbitrarily detained. but i don't know whether you caught glimpses of julian assange at the trial this week. he doesn't look well. his partner selim, or as his father john shipped and they, they will look worried. what will it mean for whistleblowers and publishers in the global south on torture? nobody detention what would it mean for, for journalism v if he, if he does, it's probably time. now when we start asking this question. if he dies in london under the jurisdiction of british authorities here. or if you should dying prison,

he has effectively been tortured to death. that's the reality of it. i mean, i am not exaggerate, and i've been working in areas of war. i have long history of visiting prisoners. i visited during their sons and i have to specialize forensic doctors with me in a psychiatrist evaluating him for 4 hours and no be all independently from each other. kinda those conclusions. at that time his life was in danger, and he sure enough, a few days after we left the prison he entered the boundary spiral. during the sound is not mentally ill. yes, he has a slight form of autism as you know when people do, but he is very resilient, intelligent man. and, and so he does not belong in a mental institution. right. so if he has a mental issue now it's because of abuse that he has suffer and you cannot you cannot get someone to recover from torture

by continuing, continuing to torture. and that's exactly what they do. they isolate tend to keep in back limbo. busy and just put the record straight for everybody doing this and is not serving a sentence. he's not even accused of a any anything that will be criminal. he is being held in extradition detention to, as you said, to prevent his escape in case he should be extra bit young. but he does not need to be in belmar prison for that. even if you, even if we assume for the purpose of the argument that yes back extradition proceeding of the did him that we have to somehow secure his presence. it can be in house arrest. that's what it is. it was the pin or say he was protected by the u. k . government to put them in a villa. my does. hatcher visited him and brought him misty. and as soon as he, you know, a doctor attested that she had some problems to concentrate and had slight forms of amnesia. he was fumbled out. maybe not even facing a dutch do. his son who has

a great, you know, medical harm has been close to him in the last decade to that, to a constant. you know, i solution defamation and abuse and up a come from anxiety that he suffers. and he's being isolated absolutely unnecessarily and therefore unlawful. so she is continuously also arbitrarily detained. it would be a tragedy if she lost his life in those circumstances. he went special aperture. thank you. thank you very much. after the break, the queen putin and she may not be going. but why did the budget of the boys, johnson government, just sabotage. net 0 targets at the weekends comp 26 conference? well, the small can we have about to have going underground?

oh driven by drill shaped bankers and those with airs sinks, we dare to ask you know, we recorded this episode in the past and this was our future when we recorded it in our going it predict what's gonna happen in 2022. so it's a real time warp. ah, welcome back, i browser,

raise the head of tomorrow's cop. 26 summit in glasgow, embarrassed johnson's goldman sachs employee to and you. k, chancellor richey snack used his budget to cut taxes on car driving little under sledge taxes on champagne. joining me from suffolk in england is an award winning advisor to governments around the world, the director of primal policy research in macroeconomics and pets. and thanks so much for coming back on big argument going underground headquarters. i have to say, because when you watch the television, they're saying, you know, not a bad budget and a lot of slight of hand. some were saying, you know, one and 4 children are in poverty in this country, but i guess it's called 26. so i got to start by asking you, why is they worth johnson, chancellor. richie select incentivizing airplane travel and car driving. i think that's one of the big disappointment is she should i key seems to think that the financial system and the treasury fits of hot from something called the ecosystem, the environment and it doesn't, it's very much

a pass. so what this shows you is that the grass, the gravity of the climate breakdown of the crisis that we face of climate breakdown and biodiversity that gravity hasn't yet reached him. and that's extraordinarily wiring boars. johnson had to sign off on this and his wife certainly is a keen environmentalist. ringback to be fetch the conservative government, they are going quite a lot further than we expected them to you and we have to room that that knock at such. it was one of the 1st to raise awareness of climate crisis at the united nation many years ago. so it is possible for them to be aware of this, but yes, not to undertake the policy, a reforms that a needed to actually adapt asked to this threat. well, he did say the minimum wage is going up by means that emblematic of the slides of hand this wage boost ensures we're making worker and keepers on track to me don't

talk to him, lou pay by the end of this parliament without really figuring out what effect that'll have on say the lowest wages of attack, social insurance. so some people, some people on some of the poorest households will see their incomes rising. but then the total effect of the other reforms, the reforms to the benefit system means that their incomes will in fact fall. so it's, it's a really difficult thing to untangle what he is trying to do. and what i think is interesting is that this conservative government is trying to cover up if you like, the mistakes that have been made of the last 11 years since dark george osborne's budget in 2010. and it cuts to the public sector that has been inflicted since then and done enormous damage to the economy. then to get in to try and cover up the back that beginning to try and reverse that. and they're

doing it in ways that are unfortunate. i shouldn't say, for example, expenditure on education is going up, but it's intended to reach the same level. it was in 201210 level of investment in 2010 by 2024. so it's have are, is they are trying to improve on those cut. so that, that austerity it's, it's really minimal. yeah. but i mean, you know, he is cutting the bank levy surcharge by infect 660 percent. why do you think he's doing that? we're getting 2 thirds of those on the welfare universal credit, which he caught money from. no extra benefit from something called a taper. our international views were wonder wouldn't earth we're talking about. but why? i mean, is he trying to count taxes on banks? are that they remember him when they tried by british debt? what is it doing it? this is

a populist government with an atc majority and they want to maintain that majority in those constituencies where there are no for a lot of poor people and very few goldman sachs bankers. but at the same time, they of course are in talk to the city of london and to their donors and who are, you know, we're not from the red hole seats. so they've got to balance this, these, these different challenges. and they finding that difficult. but for me, the really worrying thing action is that actually what they're doing is damaging the economy further. so from the macroeconomic perspective, you can do give you no tax breaks to the bankers, but by increasing taxes on average. and is essentially by, by building up the level of taxation to 36 percent of g d p. you are, in fact taking money out of the economy are taking spending money out of the

economy. and simultaneously wage is not rising relative to re inflation. so we see a real cut in incomes. this combination of falling and stagnating comes on the one hand and tax revenues being taken out of the economy on the other. while investment levels of investment remain low and all gain to remain as long as the threat of interest rate sells. that means that the macroeconomy is not going to expand. there's not going to be increased economic activity over the next period. and that poorly because the poor people spend everybody, they are in the rich think keep it in the bank or by offshore property arguably, you know, we talked on this program, sheffield, but also because of bricks. it was the ongoing impact of breakfast on the british economy. is going to deepen the damage or failure to exploit bricks that have your rubrics, a tier of history, sheffield. this is, vito said, the city of london cost of the british economy for an off trillion between

9095201570000 pounds, a personal tune of years of output. i mean, we've set it on this for instead of reducing taxes on the city of london. so would it be better for the economy for it to be burned down? i have to be honest, you know, that the city of london is a major source of tax revenues for the government. and so yeah, that showed it isn't the chevy university. so it was clear that if you add it all in all the hidden subsidies to the city of london, you add in all, obviously there we have the bailouts from graduate. they are a net loss to this economy. there is no point in them being that's true, but that's also true for the global economy action. it would work. yes. so, but, i mean, i, i'm, as you know, i'm, i'm, i'm well known as the fact that i think the city of london is unhelpful to the stability of the british economy. but, you know, it's, as it is,

and the government is determined to support it. and to defend it, as is indeed the governor of the bank of england and, and at the same time neglecting, if you like the real economy where things are made and grown and expanded. and that neglect is going to make it harder to keep land as an attractive venue for, for the global financial, for those active in global financial system. what do you think of how the mainstream television media cover budgets in this country? there's been a lot of criticism of the stimulus package in the united states and book barrel politics. so as they will face trouble over here, i mean, people going, this is a, sounded laboratory type of budget which, you know, he's showing himself to be a keynesian. and so on and he's, he's a, he's not voucher, right? this is a left wing butchered. well, i mean, on the one hand that is being said,

and it's also the case at tory back bench, is a very unhappy with the level of tax, right? but this is a tax and spend government and by the way i, i resent the implication that it's keynesian kits, kansas is not a tax id, ben. but the fact of the matter is that this is a government that is behaving very differently from previous conservative governments. and i think the media doesn't fully understand how to handle it. but it's definitely, you know, there's definitely a populist government that is trying to appeal to much broadest way of the electric then with taxes and champagne and beer. i mean, because it was clear that when the minister was asked on television about whether this will raise the standard of living, they didn't want to be drawn on it. and one resolution foundation, things said that everyone is going to be worse off in the next few years. yeah, that's true. i mean, that there's a lot of contradictions analyst. there are

a lot of contradictions in what this government is trying to do. but i would argue that it is popular in the sense that it's trying to deal to way. and this distance itself from the 2010 to an 2016 torrie government under george osborne and distance itself from that kind of policies that were attach, right? we really difficult to separate yourself from the david cameron government, which is reduced expenditure to, i mean, the cuts were more than more than napoleonic wars. well, the point is that, i mean, i think it's ridiculous that they are pretending that there are different government. there are different political party that i've seen political parties change their, their colors in the past, and this is what they're trying to do well with us before labor, privatization, time. again, i know you advised those govern said of the you to advise mass privatization just to help our viewers here in britain, because they'll see the office of budget responsibility. what is what is that?

because it's treated with such respect my journalist and getting you treated out as well. danny blanche flora, a friend of the show was on the monetary policy committee. said the officer, budget responsibility is repeatedly got to say group productivity growth, wrong time and time and time again. and yet journalists go, let's go straight here for more information on every once in the future for everyday life in this country. well, i think i agree with you the o. b. r is incredibly orthodox in the way it approaches these the british economy and has made an awful. ringback lot of wrong predictions is danny blanche has shown an i think it is beginning to lose credibility with media because it got so much wrong in the spring of this year when it predicted said so, things were going to be far worse than they've turned out to be so i think you're being a bit unfair to the media because they do, they have noticed, i notice this and i think it's quite ha,

under its new management for the o. b r to uphold its reputation as, as a sound, a sounding board for the government. we've all known all along the seattle or is actually just an extension of her majesty's treasury. there's never believe they say they bring you down until 5 year for god, for the economy, the folk as a company, the budget, the corporate, via by good tax, the very standard statement we got from we obee are you being very kind to journalists, i have to say just finally quickly on the aid and we've covered on this program, our aid is being used to arguably a al qaeda link rebels in syria. it's used as an arm of the foreign office here, and even the intelligence services they persuaded him to say, look, we will go back to point 7 percent aid. so that more aid can be used as a foreign policy tool by governments, as the host of the, of, of cop trench 6. and this climate conference, the government has to pressure other governors into coming up with

a $100000000000.00 a year, which has been promised to poor countries to help tackle climate breakdown. and the fact they've cut their own or source their own. grants to poor countries is as proved incredibly embarrassing and tories in the house of lords have objected to the story party has objected to the they beginning to pull back up now. but you know, this again is just an example of the kind of chaotic and, and very difficult to understand a politics of this, of this government bird. it's, but it's part of this package of, on the one hand, contracting the economy on the other hand, or you know, doing a you turn on aid to low income countries. and certainly just ignoring the, the security threat to the bridge, people of climate breakdown. and the extraordinary thing is that in the opinion polls it is still maintaining public support guy. mm hm. thank you. that's it for

one of your favorite shows of last season. we'll be back on wednesday, the 12th of january, but until then stay safe. and you can watch all our interviews by subscribing to our youtube channel and falling us on all our social media. what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on a fence. very dramatic and development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with at states. it has to be rash, to be able to afford enzyme,

and find the luxury that for sure. despite having the most expensive health care system in the world, we have poor life expectancy. we have higher infant mortality. we have more deaths from treatable causes. so americans are suffering every day from it. it's as if these people don't count. i saw how they can choose their customers and dump the sick so also satisfy their wall street investors. no parents should have to see what i saw. if you're denying payment for someone's care, your make life and death decisions and determine to get to live and who dies to me, that's best getting away with murder. but and i make no sense, you know,

borders and this line to nationalities and you as a merge, we don't have authority. we don't to look back, see, the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with ah,

ah, a rapidly escalating situation in kazakhstan with consult, heard in the biggest city as deadly on west bought by a fuel costs. bike continues. huge crowds of plus in to the left stranded in the city of alma they up your cities. main airport is shut down following destructive riot. we were in the apple building and realized that there was no security calling around the airport. although it had been there before the military and then police left the airport in a hurry, not really trying to evacuate us. it's class. we were just.