had between russia and nato because the way my, our reading of is at the, the, the americans and nato, and general dis, don't take this very seriously. and they always end up saying, well, we just need to talk more. well, when russia showed up with 2 documents saying we got them, we need your reaction to this. we want a legally binding agreements and you know where we stand, but the americans, i didn't take it very seriously. that's my take away. what do you think scott? with united states and nato is trapped by, you know, 2030 years of, um, of precedent to that is precedent of by totally disregarding the legitimate national security interest of russia. and um, you know, using uh the um, you know, manufactured threat of russian aggression as a justification or continued expansion of, of, of, of its geographic boundaries. and the expansion of it's a global role. so, you know,

there is going to be very difficult for the united states, nato to a back away from a, from this stance. so it would be akin to a surrender in russia knew this going. and i mean that's the frustrating aspect of is that there was never any chance or a genuine negotiations because both sides are trapped by their respective positions . rushes position of course, is that it cannot accept of the accumulation of military power on its orders. that this is um, an existential threat, and one only has to understand russian history and the importance of a june 22nd 1941 to know where the russians are coming from. as of course, with nazi germany invaded a setting off for years of l. o. for the russian people in, for europe as a whole, a russia's hope here wasn't to get the united states or nato to, to come to an agreement. or their hope was to drive home the reality of the consequences of failure. um and get europe european nations theresa

there hand and say hey, wait a minute. um, maybe war isn't in our best interests and i think that's happening right now. i think we, we've seen the seeds of doubt being sewed enough, france and germany and elsewhere where they're beginning to question the wisdom in the by ability of the hard line stance, taken by the united states, nato. you know, it's got a david, david, i mean, what was south and burn the head of, of nato. he constantly says like a broken record that nato is a defensive alliance. what kind of defensive alliance needs to constantly expand? because it seems to me that it has to expand to justify its existence and its expanded so much to russia's borders. that now they can say, but see now there's a threat here that though it was, the expansion itself was what created the threat in the 1st place. explained your view is how a defensive alliance has to keep expanding. david, well, i think you're forgetting the wonderful services nato has done in places like afghanistan and libya and the incredible success of 30 straight years and running,

containing the warsaw pact to the point where it practically doesn't exist. i mean, this is incredible. success for natalie. you're absolutely right, there is no purpose for nato. i eat, you know, it's, it exists out of bureaucratic inertia, out of obedience to the united states, out of the drive for weapons sales to eastern europe, and out of the need to maintain this mysterious substance called credibility. oh, which is not maintained by keeping the promise not to expand nato by adhering to the anti ballistic missile treaty or the intermediate range treaty or any agreements i even committing to maintain future commitments. that's all out the window has nothing to do with credibility. it's just belligerence, it's just hostility. i and that drive a risks, escalating this risks. conflict between nuclear governments and this is what nato has become. you know, a brand. i mean, one of the things,

it's very interesting to me because i am old enough to remember probably the oldest one on the program to remember is that we had a process during the cold war, the helsinki final act, where it was rip, made it very clear that, you know, security is indivisible, you cannot attain security when you're risking the security of another state. and this is exactly when nato still need to. i mean that this was a framework during the height of the cold war. there was a recognition that, you know, you cannot have security at the risk of another nato doesn't recognize that any more. go ahead, brought him and prague. well, that's exactly right. right at the end of the cold war in 1990 u. s. secretary of state james baker, under george bush, the 1st one george bush. i had made a deal of gorbachev and told him if you worked with us on the reunification of germany and allow germany unified to ally with the west, nato will not expand one inch eastward. this was a verbal commitment. there was nothing signed. and ever since,

that nato has moved east or multiple times through the 1990, isn't 2000. and each and every one of these, from the russian perspective, is it trans aggression that the violation of that verbal agreement made between the united states and russia. and now finally as nato is potentially about to be at russia border. now russia is saying that this is a red line, and it's not even, this is not an arbitrary red line. this is literally a red line. this is right at russia border. and we don't even have to ask ourselves how the united states was react, that there was a military build up on its border. everybody remembers in the united states, 1962, the cuban missile crisis. when there was a build up soviet ballistic missiles in cuba, and now was that described in the near a cataclysmic event that could have ended the world. why is it that we in the west or especially in washington, don't see. russia has a legitimate national security interest and not have a weapon build up on its border with the border with ukraine, where most of the russian population lives in striking distance in moscow. how is

it that we can sit here in the united states? american diplomats can look at russia situation and not even understand that they have a legitimate national security interests when we're militarized around its border, especially caucasus right. in eastern europe, going right to russia's doorstep. for me, i haven't trouble seeing this as diploma. so we have tried and said that he's going to focus on diplomacy, diplomacy. first, we're not going to fight wars and regime change in. we're going to focus on diplomacy. how's this diplomacy when you, when you came in display the most basic people skills that they didn't, scott, either. brad brought up the cuban missile crisis. because we go back in time. i mean khrushchev, we say, well, cuba is a sovereign country, it can have any kind of weapons that wants to get heavy alliance relationships. it wants. and kennedy made it very clear. he said, if you don't take those missiles out, we will, why is this a reverse situation? because it seemed very clear to me, and this is what the russians referred to as military technical measures. ok. i

think that saying pretty much, you know, what a kennedy said, you put these missile systems in there, you don't take them out, we will, and i think that's what they are, that basically where we're at right now. i mean, this is so downplayed in western media, this is a really huge story. and i think brad and all 3 of you were right is, isn't it just kind of arrogance and inertia? go ahead scott, fully. then we have to preface this discussion with the prior actions of the united states. so during the cold war of, you know, we viewed the soviet union at that time as a, as an equal part. um. and so when we enter into agreements, they were bilateral in nature, their binding of the anti ballistic missile treaty was one of the bed. rocca, no arms control agreements. the intermediate nuclear forces treaty another and de tional arms control agreement. egypt arms reduction treaty of united states has violated healthy. we've withdrawn from 2 of them. um, you know, and,

and so we've created a situation where a by withdrawing from these treaties which and you brought a modicum of stability. um, where now redeploying a ballistic missile defense systems into europe. oh, and we're getting ready to deploy intermediate nuclear forces in to your we've reactivated the 53rd artillery, a group in germany. anybody who has a cold war veteran knows that that's the old pershing to a brigade that, that, that, you know, corporate, she her into the hearts of the. so it's because a persian to fire missile that would be in the kremlin in 5 minutes. we're reactivating that we're going to deploy a system called a dark eagle sometime this year, which is a hypersonic, a missile capability. we're reconfiguring um, our jo, so called only anti missile system into a potential ballistic missile delivery system. they can deliver both. i'm

a cruise missiles and i'm a sim, 3 missiles it or to very for surface to surface use that the russians are saying this is totally unacceptable. now, i think russia will do 2 things. one, they'll say, i understand that these are now become targets. so anybody who co host these understand you are now a target and out what i mean target, i mean nuclear because shoe will reintroduce a system similar to the us as 20 which was the intermediate range missile, the brush fear to europe. and it was the mutual fear person to and this is twice the lead to the i n f treaty. because both i drill as we don't want the world to end to morrow, which is what was going to happen. a rush, this is going to simply re deploy a modernized version of the us as 20, which every capital in europe under risk. great. now what now what you have, we have a situation now where we could have military conflict. mitchell, mentor conflict in ukraine that could spread other areas and be

a trigger fort regional nuclear war in russia sit at the moment, you fire, look on russian soil, we unleash everything that global and alisha. nothing. the united states has done is engendered regional or global security, and it's been very bad for american security. most americans wake up, you're worried about coded, we're worried about the economy. we should be worried about whether or not we're going to be alive tomorrow. because if we continue down this path, we won't be, we'll all be dead, the world will be dead. we don't take this step, but a global nuclear annihilation is serious. we used to, i mean, again, i was in the military in the 1980s. but we trained every day for the potential new her conflict, and we understood the consequences, which is why i was a willing participant in the intermediate nuclear forces treaty. i was one of the 1st inspectors on the ground. and the so union, ill get rid of these weapons as i, as a military person recognized. oh, important, it was for security united. well, it seems like it seems like no one in washington, brussels has a memory of the,

of the, of that kind of the lemma. here i'm going to jump in here gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that show break, we'll continue our discussion on natal in russia. stay with parking with ah, the news i emotions,

medieval institutions, montana, godlike technology. and the combination of the st very, you could say historically distinct seeks fixes within our psycho physical makeup. i have rendered us pretty dangerous to ourselves and to the, to the plan in july, an annual festival in st. petersburg dedicated to dust i epsky. ah, the great writer, think around psychologist, people often tend to his work to understand russia and russians, perhaps even themselves. they put they sing on moody. it would be asleep on the matting vehicle of quality. meaning that changing a rita, transforming them as they read. that's the best i ask is unique ability to stay ascii wants to tell us, you can better yourself. he makes you face your true self. why?

we keep man beyond conventions, rules of schemes, beyond boundaries. in the time, dostoevsky is a global brand whose classics, everyone knows. i'm never out of style. i hm. oh, welcome back to cross hock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, to remind you, we're discussing nato and russia. ah, okay, it's go back to david in charlottesville. let me read to you something that the ahead of nato seldom berg had to say, quote, allies on their side, reaffirm nato's open door policy and the right for each nation to choose its own

security arrangements. ok, but i see that that somehow excludes russia from doing exactly the same thing that he's claiming nato countries have. why or our, or does he to simply have no interest section. and understanding that the, the country that nato is faced up against has no legitimate security rights because that's how i read it. go ahead david. i actually agree with you, you know, for almost a month now, u. s. media has been telling me that russia has this outrageous catastrophic list of demands that will start a new cold war. and you have these 5000 word articles there about this list of demands, but they don't show you the list which he and what, his a 100 words. i and, and, and russia had 8 demands. 3 of them were we recognized the u. n. we talked to each other, we stopped calling each other adversaries. how outrageous the other 5 are, the exact demands that the united states would make of russia, if there was a missile in cuba, right?

stop putting missiles on our border, stop putting troops on our border. stop doing military games on our border stop. i stop a enlarging nato and stop is supporting your so called security at the expense of ours. you know, these are absolutely reasonable things to sit down to discuss. if you think of russia as a partner in a discussion, rather than a misbehaving child to be kicked around to set an example to all the other misbehaving children in iran and korea and, and a china and around the world. so, you know, nato is not interested in resolving this. i, the last thing i want is russian missiles in, in the western hemisphere. but if you see that you will see the double standard play out quite starkly. you know, brad, one, a, one of the odd wrinkles in all of this here is that when nato and russia met a met,

a nato, dis, one to harp on ukraine and not on not to go address the 2 documents that of the russians, very thoughtfully. i'm a formulated about a pan european security about security for everyone, but know the u. s. and it's always one to focus on ukraine. but the irony is, of course, is it all the united states and other members of nature said that they wouldn't really do anything if there was a conflict between russia and ukraine. i mean, that is his absolute lunacy. so the whole focus is on ukraine. but we're not going to do anything about it here. i mean, what is the national security interest to nato and to the united states separately for you know, what is the importance of ukraine after all? because as i keep telling people, the more ukraine's western friends help them, the smaller ukraine gets amazingly. go ahead, brad. yeah, i mean, whenever i hear this invoked by the united states national security interest, i honestly, i don't know what it means. i mean, i know i know what it means,

but when you're thinking about national security, you're thinking about sovereignty, territorial integrity by law. this isn't what the americans are talking about whenever they're talking about national security, we had to ban why way from the u. k. because the national security interest, we just heard vince cable on mondays, they had nothing to do with that and had to do with you know, competing business interest for united states and orders from washington. this, this doesn't mean anything when we're talking about national security interest. how does it have to do with ukraine? it's not because this is an existential threat to ukraine or to the europe. that is to say that if nato didn't expand the ukraine, what it actually endanger europe, essentially in some way or the united states. of course not. it has to do with, with the geo political interests of people in washington or people in brussels at one to contain russia. i mean, actually i, i saw quite revealing offset a while ago i forget who is by where there was some former american diplomat who

said that we have to contain russia. we is in wash, the need to contain russia, keep him completely out of europe to be any kind of geopolitical game changer and focus them into asia, forcing russia to become an asian power to compete with china, to keep their training russian alliance away from each other. and i just laughed, wow, really like that's your strategy because you understand that they already know that if they were fighting a 2 front conflict or trying to rush that this would be an unwinnable conflict and even acknowledge now that potentially just one of them would be unbeatable in of itself. but i think that genuinely this is what they're trying to do. i'm trying to completely be hard line with graphic. you can be out of europe for them to can be with china. and this is going to be hilarious. i think next month when vladimir putin goes to b j, i think that will be a very upsetting announcement from him. with regards to china for the west. i think this is a fail. see it, you know, scott, you,

you've been around the block for awhile and i know you're history and disarmament and it's commendable. it seems to me that the to washington has lost that. i mean, when i think of anthony blinkin and jake sullivan, i mean, they're not really high octane thinkers here. um, you know, i mean what, what is the strategy here? because, you know, to try to dena o, e, i, it's either, you know, push russia into asia, or di lincoln from china. i mean, the, this is kind of like cartoonish for me because they're not thinking about geo politics. they, there's such a like, mean hatred here. i mean, we're dealing with states and diplomacy and negotiations. but that doesn't mean that, that doesn't have anything to do with this process right now. either the, the, the of the americans go, they make, make their barking demands. and then you know, say they're not listening and they leave here. i mean, i mean, do you want to have to get back into that business of disarmament? i mean, to have to, we live another career of doing that. go ahead. scott, remember before there was disarm, i'm also probably the only person on your program right now that does spend many

years training, actively training to close with and kill russian soldiers. that was my mission. and i understand what that chase. i understand what that was required back in the 1980s . the size of the military forces require the training commitment required. oh, it was immense. and i also understand that the u. s. military today can't do that. we don't have the ability to wage or scale ground warfare in europe. well, that's why i always go back in the, in the cold war days, we had a class of american diplomat in a class of american military officers. i mean, we had foreign airy officers or soviet specialists. i was one of the people who studied the soviet union early to go to war with how to live in can come out of the speech. we have led to disarmament. we don't have this today. we're missing an entire class of diplomatic military intellectual. instead,

what we have is what i call the class of guten whispers, and this is where a jake sullivan in a 20 blanket come in. they're not even clever enough to be put, whispered, because they don't know anything about russia, but they're surrounded by people who have spent their entire life focus solely on vladimir putin there. and criticizing him in personifying russia, in the person of russia's president. to the extent that anything that vladimir putin says or does is inherently evil and must be opposed. and that's what we have right now. as you said, it's cartoonish in nature because this is bateau bullwinkle. you know, boris and natasha kinds of sinus. it's not reality. and it's going to lead to disaster because again, i'll leave it with this. we can't fight a war in europe today. we cannot, neither can europe, neither can nato nato knows this. i've challenged anybody who's affiliated with nato. tell me how nato can mobilize an armored core in 10 days.

you will never get an answer to say can't. they would be able to do it in 10 weeks . rush on the other hand, can put 2 combined arms army that are trained for deep offensive operations in the field was in a week. this is the 1st garge tank army in the 20th combined army. both former cold war formation station did east germany that were the same. whoa, whoa, whoa. european peace and the aftermath of the solution of warsaw pact to paul the so union, but were brought back in the dean because of the expansion of nato. so nato, by expanding as triggered, russia couldn't afford armed formations, that could destroy nato in a heartbeat. and fatal doesn't seem to realizes, absolutely, absolutely. and, and, and david, let me go to you. i mean, what are policy makers expecting here? because it seems to me when i look at the, the, the jake sullivans and they anthony blankets. i mean, they're just playing to their bubble, their, their russo phobic bubble,

the russia gate friends. ok. because these 2 guys were brush, gators, okay, a big time. and it seems to me that they're playing to a domestic audience here. they're not taking in these talks. i was gonna say negotiation, but they're not negotiations at all. i mean, i can understand it's already been said in this program that both sides are locked into their specific world view. i mean, that's fine. i mean, russia, it sees an existential threat. but if the american and western policy makers are just, you know, that they have to play into this, you know, being who could be more, russo phobic and who could be more dastardly. and who can demonize more? that's a lot of foreign policy. actually, henry kissinger said that, and i'm not usual to de quoting henry kissinger, david your thoughts the. the problem of course, is that the more right wing outlets in the u. s. corporate media are already screaming for actual hot war between the us and russia. and the rest of the us media has been known to follow the more right wing us media,

and the u. s. permit has been known to follow the mainstream corporate u. s. media. so this is a danger. i mean, i know people in ukraine who think of a, despite the situation being on russia's border, not the u. s. a think of russia and the u. s. as, as equally horrible menaces in this, but they don't think either side really wants war. they think nato wants ukrainian nato, but not to actually join in any ukraine wars as article 5 would require. and they think russia wants nato out of ukraine, but doesn't actually want another afghanistan war or, or any sort of occupation. and so everybody wants a neutral ukraine, but nobody wants to say it and nobody wants to act to make it happen. and so things may spiral out of control in a way that very few people actually desire it. david, if i could stay with you, i agree with you completely, but if things go the wrong way, who gets punished the most?

it's ukraine, the country they don't want to say wants to capture. i mean, they're the ones that are on the front line here. i mean, i find it really extraordinary. they talk so much about it, but to the ukrainians that have the most to lose, at least initially david, well, at least initially is the key, right? because as scott and others have pointed out, we're dealing with nuclear weapons here. and we're dealing with war mania in the u . s. media that prefers air war to ground war and prefers nuclear war to no war and you've got ols, even in recent years, of the u. s. public thinking a nuclear war would be okay out of incredible ignorance of what it means to have a nuclear war. and yes, the people of ukraine are already suffering from this dramatically and would suffer the most and the most wiggly, but the entire world could be destroyed. yep. well, gentleman, a just seems to me the people in brussels and washington are to sleep walking us all into tragedy as all the time. we have many thanks them i guess in delmar

charlottesville, and in prague. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember rostock rules? ah, ah, with now we have e cigarettes. i just heard that it was a healthy alternative to cigarettes. and do we trust tobacco companies with their message that these new products are actually going to reduce these sugars are making the tobacco it it really is happening here in al zante, al salvatore. soon to be known globally as the home of big coin city. and we're

witnessing the demise of gold as a monetary the monetization take place. ah ah, ah ah ah ah, with ah, so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by the u. s. officials

were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating, but nobody's lean finger on you. you are doing it to yourself. we started adopting those techniques when i was stationed in mosul. among them were stress, possession, sleep deprivation. inducing hypothermia. there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrant and children, whatever you do or more comes home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and the moral authority, the made america awarded or sacrifice for the shimmer of effective interrogation.

while our officers are facing increasingly dangerous environments, we are seeing a growing debate about so called warrior cops. the term that i've heard in the militarization of believe this is an app vehicle we acquired through the 1033 program, been very free program with the government program that follows military property that is no longer use to local law enforcement. with building an army over here, and i can't believe if people aren't seen 1st thing an agency all with terry cindy . it began appealing, then ahead. you have to deal with ohio practice, who you putting in a uniform cover bands is a profit from tab has like money in play tricks and people might think they've done the bad news. wolf is out the door very bad. john's work on the good news. you have job security is world desperately needs, but you have a good ah,

a with the west wind to fall as be frank in violation of old international obligations and common sense they chose to escalate the situation. brushes, foreign minister doesn't hold back journeys on your press conference with nato expansion dominate. think go figure love rock once again, outline moscow's red line. the cia has reportedly been training a li, ukrainian special operations teams on us territory, mid melting tensions with russia. also on the program, jo biden's bill on voting rights is effectively blocked by his own party. that's the day after the american supreme court struck down the president's vaccine mandate for businesses with.