[000:00:00;00] ah, [000:00:00;00] a for to almost decade in confinement. julianna's sanchez is a shadow of him and he used to be fighting against extradition. requests to the united states has taken a toll on his physical and mental health. well, also compromising, we kicks ability to continue its operation. with only this ruling by british court to hand him over to washington. what's in store? one of the world's most recognized whistleblowers. to discuss that i'm now joined by reg barnes. in astronomy, a lawyer and an advisor to doing the sanchez australian campaign with him on to

read to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. now let me start from afar. a few weeks ago the european parliament ordered its soccer. a price and the human rights price to the russian position act to this the look, seeing the bomb it was serving time in prison on a parole violation charges in what many in the was believe to be politically motivated than that. his daughter doughty out while accepting reprise on his behalf, raised the following question, let me read it for you. why is it so hard to free from community those who are fighting for human rights? why are they still thrown in jail? not only all over the world, but in a european, geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you think this question is relevant to mr. sanchez? what i think it's any doubt that it's relevant to the assigned case. this has been a nickel prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me graciously that the

former is tried in prime minister. john howard is certainly not a fan of a son's, but a conservative back in 2000. and so the end of a was struggling to see what crime assigns is committed. so even on the right of politics and some of the most loyal you wish allies the skepticism about this case . but in these case of that human rights, because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold the us to account. you mentioned journalists around the world, then drilling us, i received a number of pam freedom privacy, pan prizes in europe. but official western institutions, which are supposedly dedicated to human rights have never recognized him as a prisoner a question. why do you think that is? well, i think it's starting to change a little bit, and i would say in amnesty international account, very vocal and crisis rich times. look, i suspect that you know,

there's us pressure is not f, as us pressure to say a signs in a certain latin pressure. you know, they, we have graciously, of course, the un, sorry that the united states are talking about game and rights talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk, you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. it comes out on the one hand we believe in press freedom, but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julia massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes people really mad about the, the case you're putting here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is drive in citizen, these electron done. that's wrong. now you said that you can talk, they talk without walking to walk and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely a biased observer share,

but i think that's been western policy for many years. and julian did did a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now having said that, as a lawyer, do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values or rather simply a state in humanitarian grounds? well, i think that, you know, as a lawyer, when you've got a very political cation that much more political miss, you've always got to read the court process shops, of course. so, but now an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the high schools this case, she needs a political resolution. this isn't a straight and citizen waste being counted down by a strike. as to the nodded steps with the ability of serving probably serving an effect in excess of $170.00. and so that's what it takes to show the pure wiggle room. and it does become holly political. and there's no doubt

that you try and government needs to get much more involved in this case as does you kind of go because they're all participants along with the risk in this process . and it also cost down quite a lot. i read somewhere that i guess maintaining police presence outside they were, they were an embassy in london, cost of british taxpayers somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds and it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think veracruz is not only american to receive another bureaucracy this persists and then so willing to spend in their pursuit of doing a son? is it about that person or more about the principal was difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's tax and united states, and you can try to kind of this. i think there's no doubt that the security state

in the united states as being and the military style in the united states has been embarrassed by the revelations which would be lakes is put out every reviews, particularly for example, a collateral murphy or the fact that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states, and that's kind of a rock. and there's no doubt that the united states is determined to have a man. and you can only explain what is otherwise a highly irrational conduct. a rational conduct on the part of a government which purports to subscribe to the rule of law. i'm wondering if at this point, it's more of the case of political retribution. you know, he making those embarrassing revelations, or is it still about damage control as far as you can tell, do you think julian assange can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging the american powers that be?

i think that there is a combination of motivations for firstly, there is a determination by the security state to get anyone to days to ensure there's greater transparency in the way the security start. all right, and whether it's an individual, whether it's an organization, do they want to stop that person from doing anything else? i think in the assange case, it's probably at this point that is to keep going with this case because i want to frighten into 2 other journalists around the world. and, and smart journalists are working out the fact that this case has really implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. well, let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous is, this is really the 1st occasion that the united states has sought to use a laws against a person who hasn't entered the jurisdiction, who is not an american citizen who's published information didn't adverse to the

american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the global community. but what is the significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr. there's not out. it's, it's, it's designed to say a very damaged person, as you rock or sign this. this is sort of extra territorial rate. in other words, you don't have to be an added to this. you don't have to set foot in the united states. it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states seems to be barren embarrassing war. a country to its national security. a lot of straight to strike in june was as written, assign st. one to stand the consequences of this guy. so that's why it's really, i mean, it's ironic, of course to destroy your racially, criticize the chinese government, a new lord in hong kong. why don't one aspect which was that any journals to

criticize china, even without being in china, could be subject to the last most trying to criticize that. this is no difference. this is the 1st time that domestic is been honest, legislation has been. i'm that someone who has no connection to the us jurisdiction . now mr. sanchez has been able to evade extradition for almost the daycare. but it seems that this factor of it is now more con critize than ever. you mentioned the, the ruling by a british forth by the, in fact the u. k. high court. allows for that extradition, do you think we receive? well, i think what we're likely to say play out now. and what we should say player is a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds. you've got a person who sprays still more. she's got at a mom struck. you've got

a person who's kept in belmont prison, one of the toughest prisons in the united kingdom. and they've been there for some time and there's no resolution inside. she humanity, jobs that are not enough. and that's the center of a lot of the debate in australia and the competitions who for example, have not been supported with sergeant nasa, is strong and government has an obligation to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more of a met their storage soccer. and so while the specter of further court cases lose dead, dismaying is just the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health has suffered enormously, as you've said in your introduction. he's a shadow of reach for myself. the anguish to himself and his family is such that i think there are many, many people that without any great particular interest. in that case you are now

saying she will. humanity says ended mister barnes. i sympathized with everything you say it's really painful to see a human being suffering from such an extent, regardless of one know what mr. sanchez contribution to transparency and human rights. but do you think that's enough? i'm in showing him some clarity or empathy on humanitarian grounds. would that lay the concerns that you specify a couple of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply its, its laws, whatever it wants to whomever, if one's on whatever reason it's one. well, you know, i think that's a very good question. i think the real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. k, i was australia and the united kingdom, most recently coming together with the orchestra concert of washington. we really made a resolution of this man. this is straining the relationship. we've got

a lot of domestic pressure to buy a new kind in australia to say in this we need to win them and hopefully political sense and common sense and humanity wins out. i mean, if you, it was making a point about it, it might the point over and over again because mr. has been rightly trying to avoid going to united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american system . you mentioned that i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active ordering astronomy recently. and it's a rivalry with china and lots of promises of industrial and military how the united states, washington needs a for its own geopolitical game. do you think it's likely to make your government

more subservient politically or on the country and more sort of assertive, including indication? well, just give you an example that you might recall back in about 2004. we have started citizen, david hicks, who had previously been found, i think, in afghanistan, allegedly trying to without got taken to one kind of by a couple of years. there was domestic political pressure on the prime minister john how to when he went to washington and said, i need you to tell me if i need to get back out of there and i need to get in contact and that happen. so there is a recent pressure front stride and sign to the u. s. well, you know, i get a more ally than us. you know, we are extremely cost. so we need you to do this for us. now there is nothing stopping in australia, government doing it. it's been done before by a conservative government, which is the current government office. and we've got a firm industry started and a number of other very distinguished australians who assigned to account promise to

stop morrison on the farm is to merge time that he's got such a bank of will in washington use it. it's about as we have to take a short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments. ha, ah, who is your media reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation, whole community. are you going the right way?

where are you being with? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend. ah, so join us in the depths. will remain in the shallows. ah, who welcome back to worlds apart. 5th rank lawrence in australian lawyer and an advisor to julian sanchez is trailyn campaign. mr. barnes, before the break we were talking about how this a long battle for non extradition has cost a lot in terms of mental and physical how it's taken many years of his life. do you think in high side it was worth it?

what it was absolutely worth and some of the system, the human rights were area. this was a cash way, legitimately short. a song riley sort of saw him in the view of many of us because he would have been taught in united states. and it has, of course, been worth it in the sense that money has done as everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is committed to more when i searched so to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally is that julian, so a reminder for many people around the world, i figure a figure of hope in the sense that someone committed to transparency, committed to ensuring that the public knows the truth. trying to know, since it's been worth, i mean the pole has been terrible and they know to be something done urgently to ensure that you mentioned the torture that face. and it was still face in

being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, not towards your has been visited upon him already. i mean, staying in confinement for a day that, you know, it's hard for anyone and sometimes, you know, it's a philosophical question, but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those theories and all those dangers of the american imprisonment would have lacking with, with more house or more ability to, you know, serve his cost because, nelson mandela, after all, you know, stayed in prison for quite some time, but he's been influential in that now to narrow it down. what do you think the wars that could happen to mr. assange? if indeed the extradition or request is granted and implemented, we could die. and i'm not, i'm not exaggerating that they could die. certainly whether he stays in your prison

system. but 2nd, guess your reps, amnesty international. my point and i would like to sign that they assurances given by lawyers acting for us in the appeals court should be treated very cautiously if, if i can seriously. because even if we accept that assurances by the united states government that he would get proper health care that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept for much, but that they were in fact the instructions from washington to his giles. what goes on on the ground, the person says we all know is very, very different. and so those guarantees, you know, i've seen some meetings. the risk for mr. sanchez is his life. and that's not a place that any service should be in anywhere in the world. we know it happens if of course, but it shouldn't be going to particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got

a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course, it's not mister barnes. it's well known. the julian expansion wiccan got themselves to be cross hairs of many powerful actors, not only american, but also not how they published embarrassing information about the saudi government, about the russian government, about the turkish government. as well as about many american actors. we should be investigations the thing prove most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez current predicament. while i would still maintain a class for murder, video, the revelations of 2010, 2011, that see it as a war in which the united states was gauge. i don't, i think it was on appreciate it. and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course that's what he's trying. a number of people here in australia, for example,

we took issue with they the accusation never approved by the way that the to the day and see miles were in some way. an orchestrated the change by various actors to divide us. let's go a spade by name russian actors because this is how it is. i mean, but just, just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me, over the years, your instructor and some journal saw well, what about that ish? that issue is completely irrelevant to why join the funds in sober captives of the united kingdom and the united states. just a moment completely irrelevant. and it's really important for people to focus on the fact that it doesn't matter what else wookey lakes is alleged or matter that's completely irrelevant to this particular case. and that's what i'm saying to people in a start it. and i have to cite a number of people who now supported the sergeant strike. they have actually made

that point. we don't particularly like some of the things that he likes, what he likes has done, but that's not the point. and that's right, the focus has to be on why of each that he finds himself in intolerable conditions in a breach. first, it's much less publicized by the dmc in $2900.00 tried to go off to leaks and challenge the delay gallon relations and their soup was actually dismissed with their use charge in the case that we did not participate in any role doing. obtaining the materials and therefore what within the law of publishing this information, and that makes me question whether it be your legal system is in deep so hopelessly biased against julian assigned because there were contrary examples. and i want to shine here that the us just got the worst legal system and flashed when it comes to

waste cuts. and when it comes to espionage crisis been tried in the eastern district of virginia. we juries routinely drawn from the families of f. b. i, c, i, and other national security st. i mean this, it is possible to get a free trial that's for expense it my very that the united states, the justice system, integration, right? decisions out of the u. s. supreme court is on civil rights that you should, you should use the trial crisis here and whether now on the way the american officials and presented the d and c case was essential to try to compromise julianna's non just reputation by its suppose in relationship or association. with the russians, and there was a claim made, including by anonymous intelligence officers and this material. what's that to him by the russians, even though south maintain that it was an internal league?

do you think the big question of procurement of this materials has any relevance on the practicalities of the case of the term tri city facing? i would say no, because this guy's managed well before this guy's commission, when he, before he saw a psalm in the industry, grand jury are sitting, investigating these particular allegations for many project him being charged. so i think it happened. do you think it will be limited to that initial case? and that is revelations about iraq and afghanistan because, you know, he, to some extent is being tried in the, for the public opinion. and this is, you know, what you're doing here as well. you're trying to, you know, gain a momentum for public sympathy. so again,

and i think we discussed that before. is it the strictly legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well, i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion, there's not at this been shipped last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia, bobby joyce's a conservative right. a very strong base in a straight and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later, marco griffin was one of the chief florida force and offices in us. try to make sure the points and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice shy, look, we're not particularly way to to wiki lakes. sympathetic with legs for such that there are fundamental principles stated in relation to this is trying to see this and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying, this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids, is the guy with this is a guy who's just had

a minus struck in a u. k. prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. well, do respect you, the a strong agree is probably if you need anything or what matters the most. here is the american public opinion, and i think there has been a concerted efforts. yes. so said we can links and julie and assigned with the trump campaign. even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like choosing the color, i'm going to ria back 16. she said that you want to refer and neither of them. now the fact that neither of them is neither of them. i empower anymore, and bulls are in a sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him? or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the, the american public and then the relevant to the american public. i think at the

end of the this is a meta with a t l of the united states could simply its prime minister scott morris to pick up the phone and get a deal irrespective of a us public. every ship that there's not work that's been done by julian father don't ship them with him. i'm fairly close. he's brought gabrielle ship in. united states has shifted opinion. there is strong public support for julian assange in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter, irrespective of public opinion in other countries. i started this conversation by referencing alex and i've only and many other positions, acres whose prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west bay if a case like this where it's to play out in china, in russia or in some other countries. i think that that would have been

a major weston reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the of this case is damaging to democracy? democracy as a system of government as opposed to i told, prosy. i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about ryan, which countries like the united states and started proclaimed to liberal writers and certainly support freedom of oppression and make a point of supporting journals around the world in other countries in other countries. yeah, and that's, that's, that's right in the country. but when it's come to a case involving an australian citizen getting in entangled with the us legal system. it's been a very different attitude taken. and, you know, i think that does to damage to nations because what it shows that

critical now it should, i think more difficult for countries like australia in the united states to print for the rest of the world. the universal values, which we all share when assigned time, they've got a case such and where people rightly then say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you're support universal liberal values including freedom of the press. on the other hand, you're going after a person. it was done more than just by any chance to expire the truth of the operations. the united states is choose that involves many sounds. if not, millions of people that also has to be mentioned is still just about the united states. it's about the security of the whole world. anyway, mr. barbie,

we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week. and of course in the me ah ah

ah ah ah, ah ah, breaking news, the knob he this our a sigh of relief in the us state of texas as all the hostages held captive for hours on saturday at the synagogue relief. that's according to the state governor media report, i think, believe told to states the healthy stake may have been motivated to free a pakistani prisoner building counter terrorism circles. as lady al qaeda family though, denies any links to the attacker. moscow, slums, washington alleging the bushes preparing a full like operation to justify its suppose that ukraine invasion plans august

sized the chances of military conflict. nissan saw command was always going to