now let me start from a far few weeks ago, the european parliament awarded its sufferer price to be human rights christ to the russian position. after this look seen only who is serving time in prison on parole, violation charges in what many in the west believes to be politically motivated than that. his daughter doughty, while accepting, deprive them he because raised the following question, let me read it for you. why it's so hard to read from cosivity, those cos sliding for human rights. why are they still owning jails? not only all over the world, but in a european, geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you think this question is relevant to mr. sanchez? case and if there's any doubt that it's relevant to the assigned case, this has been a legal prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me recently that the former tried in prime minister john howard are certainly not

a fan of astonishment and a conservative step back in 2000. so the end of a was struggling to see what crime assigns is committed. so even on the right of politics and some of the most loyal us, charlotte is skepticism about this case. but in these case about human rights, because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold the us to account. you mentioned journalists around the world that julian received a number of pam freedom prizes or pan prizes in europe. but official western institutions, which are supposedly dedicated to human rights, have never recognized him as a prisoner of functions. why do you think that is? well, i think it's starting to change a little bit. and i would say in amnesty international, they can very vocal and he's crisis rich times. look, i suspect that you know, there's us pressure is not f, as us pressure to say a signs in

a certain latin pressure. you know, they, we have graciously, of course, the un, sorry that the united states are talking about game and rights talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk, you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. you can say on the one hand, we believe in press freedom, but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julia massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes people really mad about the, the case you putting here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is tried in citizen, these electron done. that's wrong. now you said that you can talk the talk without walking to walk, and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely a biased observer share, but i think that's been western policy for many years. and julian, indeed did a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now, having said that, as

a lawyer, do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values or rather simply a state in humanitarian grounds? well, i think that, you know, as a lawyer, when you've got a very political cation that much more political miss, you've always got to read the court process. shucks, of course. so, but now an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the high schools this case, she needs a political resolution. this isn't a straight and citizen waste being counted down by a strike as to the nodded sex with the ability of serving probably serving an effect in excess of 170. and so that's what it takes to show the pure wiggle room. and it does become holly political and there's no doubt that you try and government needs to get much more involved in this case as does

you kind of go? because they're all participants along with the risk in this process. and it also cost down quite a lot. i read somewhere that i guess maintaining police presence outside they were, they were an embassy in london, cost of british taxpayers somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds. and it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think veracruz is not only american to receive another bureaucracy, this persistent and so willing to spend in their pursuit of doing a son? is it about that person or more about the principal was difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's tax and united states and you can try to paying for this. i think there's no doubt that the security state in the united states has been and the military stay in the united states has been

embarrassed by the revelations which would be lakes is put out for reviews, particularly for example, the collateral murphy or the fact that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states and have kind of a rock. and there's no doubt that the united states is determined to have a man. and you can only explain what is otherwise a highly irrational conduct. calia rational conduct on the part of a government which purports to subscribe to the rule of law. i'm wondering if at this point it's more of a case of political retribution, you know, making those embarrassing revelations or is it still about damage control? as far as you can tell, do you think doing a search can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging the american powers that be? i think that there is a combination of motivations. personally, there is

a determination by the security state to get anyone to days to ensure there's greater transparency in the way the security side operates. and whether it's an individual, whether it's an organization, do i want to stop that person from doing anything else? i think in the assange case, it's probably at this point that is to keep going with this case because i want to frighten into 2 other journalists around the world. and smart journalists are working up the fact that this case has really implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. well, let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous, is that this is really the 1st occasion that the united states has sought to use the gap in our laws against a person who hasn't entered the jurisdiction, who is not an american citizen whose published information didn't adverse to the

american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the local community. but what is the significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr? there's not us it's. it's just on to say i very damage. as you rock side this, this is sort of extra territorial rate. in other words, you don't have to be an artist. but since you don't have to set foot in the united states, it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states to be barest, embarrassing country to its national security. a low struggle, australian journalist, as i say, written the same thing. i want to stand the consequences of this case. so that's why it's really, i mean, it's ironic of course, to destroy your recently criticize the chinese government, the new laws in hong kong. 11 aspect of which was that any journals to criticize china, even without being in china,

could be subject to the laws most trying to right to criticize that. this is no difference. this is the 1st time that the mystic, it's been osh legislation. it's been, i'm that someone who has no connection to the u. s. jurisdiction. now mr. sanchez has been able to evade extradition for almost a decade. but it seems that the spectrum of it is now more concrete ties than ever . you mentioned the ruling by british for, by the in fact the u. k. high court that allows for that extradition, do you think we were feed will go what we're likely to say? play out now, what we should say play up so should say, is a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds? you've got a person who suppression are you still a more? she's gotten a feel at a mom stroke. you've got a person who's kept in belmont person,

one of the toughest persons in the united kingdom. and there's been there for some time and there's no resolution. and so she humanity shows that on us enough. and that's the tenor of a lot of the bite in the started. the strike in government has not begun to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more than that. there is a sort of shock. and so, while the spectre of, for the court cases loose displays of the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health a normal swears you should in your introduction, is a shadow of use for myself. the anguish to and show from to reach family is such that i think there are many, many people that any great particular interesting because you're now sanction humanities and i think the highest with everything you say it, it's really painful to see a human being suffering from such an extent,

regardless of one, know what mr. sanchez contribution to transparency in human rights is. but do you think that's enough? i'm in showing him some quantity or empathy on humanitarian grounds. we've got a labor concerns that you specify that couple of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply it's, it's loss whatever it wants to, whoever it wants. and whatever reason it wants. well, you know, i think that's a very good question. the real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. k, i was australia and united kingdom, most recently coming together with the orchestra concert or washington. we really made a resolution of this. this is straining the relationship. we've got a lot of domestic pressure, a new kind in australia to say in this we need to win them and hopefully political sense and common sense and humanity wins out. i mean, if you,

it was making a point about it, it might the point over and over again because mr. has been rightly trying to avoid going the united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american system. now you mentioned that and i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active ordering astrology recently in arrival with china and lots of promises of industrial and military how the united states washington needs a for its own geopolitical game. and do you think it's likely to make your government more subservient politically or on the country more sort of assertive, including indication well, just give you an example that you might recall back in about 2004. we have started

citizen, david hicks, who had previously been found, i think, in afghanistan, allegedly trying to without got taken to one kind of by a couple of years they was to mystic political pressure on the prime minister john how to when he went to washington and said i need you to tell me if i need to get back out of there and i need to get in contact and that happen. so there is a recent president from stride and got signed to the us. well, you know, i get a more ally than us. you know, we're extremely cost. so we need to do this for us. now there is nothing stopping in australian government doing it. it's been done before by a conservative government, which is the current government office. and we've got like a formal formula students trying to call and a number of other very distinguished australians assigned to a current premise to scott morrison on the farm is to merge time that he's got such a bank of will in washington use it. it's about we have to take

a short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments. a i look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such orders that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to race trust rather than fear i would like to take on the area with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a

robot must protect its own existence with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time. time to sit down and talk. ah welcome back to wells apart, frank warrenson, astro in lawyer and an advisor to join us on justice trailing campaign. mr. barnes . before the break, we were talking about how this

a long battle for non extradition has cost a lot in terms of mental and physical how it's taken many years of his life. do you think in hindsight it was worth it? what it was absolutely worth and some of the system, the human rights law area. this was a cash way, legitimately a song riley, sort of asylum in the view of many of us because he would've been taught in united states. and it has, of course, been worth it in the sense that money has done as everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is committed to more when a church. so to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally is that julia, julia such remind for many people around the world, i figure a figure of hope in the sense that someone committed to transparency,

committed to ensuring that the public knows the truth. trying to know, since it's been worth, i mean the toll has been terrible and they know to be something done urgently to ensure that you mentioned the torture that face. and it was still face in being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, not torture has been visited upon him already. and in staying in confinement for a day that, you know, it's hard for anyone. and sometimes, you know, it's a philosophical question, but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those theories. and all those dangers of the american imprisonment would have lacking with, with more house or more ability to, you know, serve his cost because, nelson mandela, after all, you know, stayed in prison for quite some time. but he's been influential in that now to

narrow it down. what do you think the wars that could happen to mr. assange? if indeed the extradition or request is granted and implemented, we could die. and i'm not, i'm not exaggerating that they could die. certainly whether he stays in your prison system. but secondly, if you guys knew reps, amnesty international my point, and i would like to sign that they assurances given by lawyers acting for us in the appeals court should be triggered very cautiously. if, if i can seriously, because even if we accept that assurances by the united states government that he would get proper health care that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept for much that they were in fact the instructions from washington to east giles. what goes on on the ground, the person says we all know is very, very different. and so guarantees, you know, i've seen some meetings. the risk for mr. sanchez is his life, and that's not

a place that any service should be in anywhere in the world. we know it happens if of course, but it shouldn't be particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course, it's not mr. barnes, it's well known. the julian expansion wiccan got themselves to be cross hairs of many powerful actors, not only american, but also international. they published embarrassing information about the saudi government, about the russian government, about the turkish government, as well as about many american actors. we have these investigations the think, prove most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez. current predicament. well, i would still maintain a class for murder, video, the revelations of 2010, 2011 that see it as

a war in which the united states was gauge. i don't, i think it was. i'm pretty sure i did. and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course that's what he's trying only a number of people here in australia for example, we took issue with they the accusation never approach. by the way, that the to the day and see miles were in some way, an orchestrated the change by various actors to divide us. let's go a spade by name russian actors because this is how it is, i mean, but just to, just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me, over the years here, an instructor and some journals saw well. what about that ish? that issue is completely irrelevant to why join the funding, sober captain of the united kingdom and the united states just a moment completely irrelevant. and it's really important for people to focus on

that fact that it doesn't matter. what else wookey lakes is alleged or not? that's completely irrelevant to this particular case and that's what way they signed the paper when i started. and i have to cite a number of people who now supported the sergeant strike. they have actually made that point. we don't particularly like some of the things that wiki likes what he likes has done, but that's not the point. and that's right, the focus has to be on why of each that he finds himself in intolerable conditions in a breach. first, it's much less publicized by dmc in $2900.00 tried to go off to a we can leaks and challenge the delay gallon relations. and there was actually dismissed with kind of their a use charge in the case that we did not participate in any role doing, obtaining the materials. and therefore, what within the law of publishing this information, and that makes me question whether it be your legal system is indeed so hopelessly

biased against julian assigned because there were contrary examples. no one is showing here that the us just got the worst legal system works. bash when it comes to espionage cuts. and when it comes to espionage case, it's been tried in the eastern district of virginia, with jury's routinely drawn from the families of f. b. i, c, i a and other national security st. i mean this, it is possible to get a free trial that's for expense it my be that the united states, the justice system, integration, right? decisions out of the u. s. supreme court of these and civil rights that you should, you should use the trial crisis here and whether now on the way the american officials and presented the d and c case was essential to try to compromise jolena sanchez reputation by its suppose its relationship or association

with the russians, and there was a claim made, including by anonymous intelligence officers and these material. what's that to him by the russians, even though south maintain that it was an internal league? do you think the big question of procurement of this materials have any relevance on the practicalities of of the current i city facing? i would say no, because this guys managed well before that mr. guys, commission, when for a sort, a song in the industry grand jury are sitting, investigating these particular allegations for many project him being charged. so i think that conflict of sure, do you think it will be limited to that initial case actually,

revelations about iraq and afghanistan? because, you know, he, to some extent is being tried to, for the public opinion. and this is, you know, what you're doing here as well. you're trying to, you know, gain a momentum for public sympathy. so again, and i think we discussed that before. is it strictly a legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well, i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion, there's not at this been shipped last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia, bobby joyce's a conservative right. a very strong base in a straight and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later, michael griffin was one of the chief lawyer enforcement officers in us. try to make some look points and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice shy, look, we're not particularly way to, to wiki lakes or sympathetic with lakes for such that there are fundamental

principles stated in relation to this is trying to see this and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying, this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids. this is a guy with, this is a guy who's just had a, a minus struck in a u k. prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. well, due respect to the astrology and british public, if you need anything or what matters the most care is the american public opinion. and i think there has been a concerted efforts. yes. so said we can link some julian assigned with the trump campaign, even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like choosing the color i'm going to ria back and she said that you prefer and neither of them now the fact that neither of them is neither of them

mind power anymore and bulls are in a sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him, or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the, the american public and then the relevant to the american public. i think at the end of the this is a matter where a t l, of the united states could simply its prime minister scott morris could pick up the phone and get a deal irrespective of a u. s. public pretty. having said that, there's not out the work that's been done by julian father, don't ship them with him. i'm fairly close. he's product gabrielle shift in united states has shifted public opinion. there is strong public julian assigned in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter, irrespective of public opinion in the country. i started this conversation by

referencing alex st. evolve and many other positions, acres, whose prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west bay if a case like this where its way out in china, in russia or in some other countries. i think that that would have been a major weston reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the of this case is damaging to democracy? democracy address system of government as opposed to, i told, prosy. i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about why in which countries like the united states and starting point to support right then certainly supports pretty much push and make a point of supporting general around the world in other countries. and that's,

that's right, in other countries. but when it comes to a case involving an australian citizen getting entangled with the us legal system, it's been a very different attitude type. and, you know, i think that does to damage to our nations because what it shows that a critical now it makes it more difficult for countries like australia or the united states to preach risk the will, the universal values which will fit a way people rightly they say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you support universal liberal values including freedom of the press. on the other hand, you're going after 1st. it was done more than just about any just to expose the truth of the operations. united states is a truth that involves many thousands,

if not millions of people that also has to be mentioned. it's not just about the united states, it's about the security. well, anyway, mr. but we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for what she hope to hear again next week on the with me. a

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