which margins ready to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure . now, let me start from a far few weeks ago, the european parliament awarded its sufferer price, the human rights christ to the russian position activists. it looks scene of only who is serving time in prison on parole, violation charges in what many in the west believes to be politically motivated than that. his daughter doughty, while accepting, deprive them he behalf, raised the following question. let me read it for you. why it's so hard to read from cosivity, those cos sliding for human rights. why are they still owning jails? not only all over the world, but in a european, geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you think this question is relevant to mr. sanchez? case what just any doubt that it's relevant to the assigned case. this has been a prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me graciously that the former is

tried in prime minister. john howard are certainly not a fan of astonishment and conservative. sit back in 2000 and so the end of a was struggling to see what crime assigned to committed. so even on the right of politics and some of the most loyal you wish allies is skepticism about this case. but in this case about human rights, because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold us to account. you mentioned journalists around the world, then drilling us. i received a number of. busy pam freedom prizes or pan prizes in europe. but official western institutions, which are supposedly dedicated to human rights have never recognized him as a prisoner collections. why do you think that is? well, i think it's starting to change a little bit, and i would say in amnesty international become very vocal and he's trying to times look a suspect that you know, there's us pressure is not f, as us pressure to say

a signs in a certain latin principal they, we have graciously, of course, the un, sorry that the united states are talking about game and rights talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk, you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. you cancelled on the one hand we believe in press freedom, but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julia massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes people really mad about the, the case you're putting here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is straight in citizen, these electron done. that's wrong. now you said that you can talk the talk without walking to walk and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely a biased observer share, but i think that's been western policy for many years. and julia indeed did

a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now, having said that, as a lawyer, do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values or rather simply a state in humanitarian grounds? well, i think that, you know, as a lawyer, when you've got a very political cation that much will political miss. you've always got to read the court process. shucks, of course. so by now, an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the high schools this case, she needs a political resolution issued from the straight and citizen away. spain counted down by a stride as to the knotted steps with a body of serving probably serving an effect in excess of $170.00. and so that's what it takes to kind of show the pure wiggle room. and it does become holly political and there's no doubt that you try and government needs to

get much more involved in this case as does you kind of go? because they're all participants along with the risk in this process. and it also cost down quite a lot. i read somewhere that i guess maintaining police presence outside they were, they were an embassy in london, cost of british taxpayers somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds. and it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think veracruz is not only american to receive another bureaucracy this persists and then so willing to spend in their pursuit of doing a song? is it about that person or more about the principal? well, it's difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's tax and united states. you can try to kind of this i think there's no doubt that the security state in the united states as being and

a military style in the united states has been embarrassed by the revelations which would be lakes is put out of her number reviews, particularly for example, a collateral murphy or the fact that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states. and that's kind of standard rock. and there's no doubt that the united states is determined to have the man. and you can only explain what is otherwise a highly irrational conduct calia rational conduct on the part of a government which purports to subscribe to the rule of law. i wonder if at this point, it's more of the case of political retribution. you know, he making those embarrassing revelations, or is it still about damage control as far as you can tell, do you think julian assange can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging the american powers that be?

i think that there is a combination of motivations personally, there is a determination by the security state to get anyone to days to ensure there's greater transparency and the way the security start operates. and whether it's an individual, whether it's an organization, do i want to stop that person from doing anything else? i think in the assange case, it's probably at this point that is to keep going with this case because i want to frighten the 2 other journalists around the world. and smart journalists are working up the fact that this case has really implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. well, let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous that this is really the occasion that the united states has sought to use domestic espionage laws against a person who hasn't entered the jurisdiction, who is not an american citizen whose published information didn't adverse to the

american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the global community. but what is the significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr. there's not out. it's, it's, it's designed to set a very damaged person as you rock or sign this. this is sort of extra territorial rate. in other words, you don't have to be and i said, you don't have to set foot in the, in our sites. it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states seems to be barren, embarrassing, or a country to its national security. was trying to strike in journalists as written, assigned st. i want to stand the consequences of this guy. so that's why it's really, i mean, it's ironic, of course to destroy the racially, criticize the chinese government, the new laws in hong kong. why don't one aspect which was that any journals to

criticize china, even without being in china, could be subject to the laws ms. trying to criticize that this is no difference. this is the 1st time that domestic is been honest, legislation has been i'm that someone who has no connection to the us years to now mr. sanchez has been able to evade extradition for almost the daycare, but it seems that the specter of it is now more con critize than ever. you mentioned the, the ruling by a british forth by the in fact the u. k. high court allows for that extradition, do you think we received? well, i think what we're likely to say play out now. what we should say player, perhaps i should say, is a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds. you've got a person who's ration still a marcy's got real at a mom struck. you've got

a person who's kept in belmont prison, one of the toughest prisons in the united kingdom. and there's been there for some time and there's no resolution inside. she humanity jobs that are not enough. and that's the center of a lot of the debate in australia and politicians who, for example, have not a cost analysis destroyed in government, has an obligation to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more than that. there is a sort of shock and so while the speak to refer the court cases lose this place and the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health has suffered enormous layers. you should, in your introduction, is a shadow of each form. so the anguish to show from to reach family is such that i think there are many, many people that any great particularly interesting because you're now sanction or humanity. is it

a sympathize with everything you say it's really painful to see a human being suffering from such an extent regardless of one know what mr. sanchez contribution to transparency in human rights is. but do you think that's enough? i'm in showing him some clemency or empathy on humanitarian grounds. we've got a labor concerns that you specify the couple of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply it's, it's loss whatever it wants to, whoever it wants. and whatever reason it wants. well, you know, i think that's a very good question. the real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. k, i was australia and united kingdom, most recently coming together with the orchestra concert or washington. we really made a resolution of this, this is straining the relationship. we've got

a lot of domestic pressure question. you can in the strike to say in this, we need to win them. and hopefully, political sense and common sense and humanity wins out. i mean, if you, it was making a point about it, it might the point over and over again because mr. has been rightly trying to avoid going the united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american prison system. now you mentioned that i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active ordering a trailer recently. and it's a rivalry with china and lots of promises, industrial, and military, how the united states washington needs a strongly for its own geopolitical game. and do you think it's likely to make your government more subservient politically or on the country and more sort of

assertive, including indications you well just give you an example. you may recall back in about 2004, you started citizen, david hicks, who had previously been found, i think in afghanistan, allegedly tronic without got taken to one kind of by a couple of years they was to mission political pressure on the prime minister. john, how to when he went to washington and said, i need you to do me a favor. i need to get back out of there and i need to get in and that happen. so there is a recent pressure stride and got signed to the us. well, you know, i get a more ally than us. you know, we're extremely cost. so we need you to do this for us. now there is nothing stopping in australian government doing it. it's been done before by a conservative government, which is the current government office. and we've got like a formal form the students trying to catch a number of other very distinguished australians who assigned to

a current premise to scott morrison farmers to merge time that he's got such a bank of will in washington use it. it's about we have to take a short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments. ha, ah. while our officers are facing increasingly dangerous environment, we are seeing a growing debate about so called warrior cops. the term that i've heard in the militarization of police this is an am vehicle we acquired through the 1033 program and very free program with the government program that follows military property. that is no longer you local law enforcement with an army over here and i can't

believe people aren't c. a feeling that you have to deal with. are you putting in a uniform a is from time who's like moon it played through people mine. they think they gone, the bad news was out the door. very bad. drug work on the good news. you have job security because the world desperately needs with a welcome back to wells apartments. frank lawrence in australian lawyer and an advisor to julian sanchez. this trillion campaign, mr. barnes. before the break we were talking about how this

a long battle for non extradition has cost a lot in terms of mental and physical how it's taken many years of his life. do you think in hindsight it was worth it? what it was absolutely worth and you know, as some of the references in the human rights, more area, this was a cash way, legitimately short a song rightly sort of. so i'm in the view of many of us because he would have been taught in united states. and it has, of course, been worth it in the sense that he has done as everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is far from committed to more when i searched so to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally is that julian, so a reminder for many people around the world, i figure figure in the sense that someone committed to transparency committed to

ensuring that the public knows the truth. trying to know, since it's been with, i mean the toll has been terrible and they know to be something done urgently to ensure that you mentioned the torture that face. and it was still face in being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, not torture has been visited upon him already in saying, and in confinement for a day that, you know, it's hard for anyone. and sometimes, you know, it's a philosophical question, but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those theories. and all those dangers of the american imprisonment would have left you with that with more house or more ability to, you know, serve his cost because, nelson mandela, after all, you know, stayed in prison for quite some time. but he's been influential in that now to

narrow it down. what do you think the wars that could happen to mr. assange? if indeed the extradition request is granted and implemented. we could die. and i'm not, i'm not exaggerating, that they could die. certainly whether he stays in your prison system. but secondly, if you guys your reps, amnesty international, my point and i would like to sign that they assurances given by lawyers acting from us in the appeals court should be triggered very cautiously. if, if i can seriously, because even if we accept that assurances by the united states government that he would get proper health care that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept from that they were in fact the instructions from washington to east giles. what goes on on the ground, the person says we all know is very, very different. and so those guarantees, you know, i've seen some meetings that the risk for mr. sanchez is his life. and that's not

a place that any citizen should be in anywhere in the world. we know it happens in the course, but it shouldn't be particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course it's not mr. barnes, it's well known, the julian expansion of wiccan, pagan gods, themselves to be cross hairs of many powerful actors. not only american, but also international. they published embarrassing information about the saudi government, about the russian government and the turkish government, as well as about many american actors. we should be investigations, the thing proved most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez current predicament. well, i would still maintain a class for murder, video, the revelations of 2010, 2011 that see it as

a war in which the united states was gauge. i don't, i think it was. i'm pretty sure i did. and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course that's what he's trying only a number of people here in australia for example, we took issue with they the accusation never approach. by the way, that the to the day and see miles were in some way, an orchestrated to change by various actors to divide us. let's go a spade by name russian actors because this is how it is, i mean, but just to, just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me, over the years, your instructor and some journal saw well, what about that ish that issue is completely irrelevant to why join the funds in sober captives of the united kingdom and the united states just a moment completely around and it's really important for people to focus on that

fact that it doesn't matter. what else wookey lakes is alleged we're done or not that's completely irrelevant to this particular case. and that's what we've been signed the paperwork started and i have to cite a number of people who've now supported the sergeant strike. they have actually made that point. we don't particularly like some of the things that wiki likes what he likes has done, but that's not the point. and that's right, the focus has to be on why of each that he finds himself in intolerable conditions in a breach. first, it's much less publicized by dmc in $2900.00 tried to go off to a we can leaks and challenge the delay gallon relations. and there was actually dismissed with kind of their a use charge indicates that we did not participate in any role doing, obtaining the materials. and therefore, what within the law of publishing this information, and that makes me question whether it be your legal system is indeed so hopelessly

biased against julian assigned because there were contrary examples. no one is showing here that the us just got the worst legal system and bashed when it comes to espionage cuts. and when it comes to espionage crisis, been tried in the eastern district of virginia, with jury's routinely drawn from the families of f. b i. c. i a and other national security st. i mean this each most impossible to get a free trial. that's what's been said, my be the other past, the united states justice system and some great decisions out of the us supreme court up on civil rights that, that, that you should issue with the trial approaches here and whether it would be fit now on the way the american officials and presented the dmc case was essential to try to compromise juliana sanchez reputation by if suppose it relationship or

association with the russians. and there was a claim made by including by anonymous intelligence officers. this material was him by the russians, even though he felt maintained that it was an internal league. do you think the big question of procurement of this materials have any relevance on the practicalities of the case? of the current case it is facing, i'm sorry, not because this case commenced well before the case commenced. when he, before he saw a psalm in india in the u. k. and the very embassy, a grand jury was seen investigating these particular allegations for many years prior to him being charged. so i think they conflicted separate or do you think it was limited to that initial case? and she's revelations about iraq and got them because you know, he,

to some extent of being tried and before the public opinion, this is what you're doing here as well. you're trying to gain a matching for public sympathy. so again, i think we discussed that before. is it strictly a legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well, i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion, there's not at this been shipped last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia, bobby joyce's a conservative right. a very strong base in a strain and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later, michael griffin was one of the chief lower enforcement officers in us. try to make sure look points and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice shy, look, we're not particularly way to, to wiki lakes, sympathetic with lakes for such that there are fundamental principles of state in

relation to this is trying to see this and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying, this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids. this is the guy with. this is a guy who just had a, a minus struck in a u k. prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. well, do respect you, the a strong agree is probably if you need anything or what matters the most care is the american public opinion. and i think there has been a concerted efforts, you associate with links and julie and assigned with the trump campaign, even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like choosing the color. i'm going to ria back at extension 3 or refer and neither of them. now, the fact that neither of them is neither of them mind power anymore,

and bulls are in a sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him, or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the, the american public and then relevant to the american public. i think at the end of the this is a matter where a t l, of the united states could simply its prime minister scott morris, could pick up the phone and get a deal irrespective of a us public. having said that, there's not work that's been done by julian, they don't ship them to with m, i'm fairly close. the product gabrielle shipped in united states has shifted opinion. there is strong public julian assange in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter, irrespective of public opinion in other countries. i started this conversation by

referencing alex st. volunteer. there are many other positions, vickers, who, prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west bay if a case like this, where it's way out in china, in russia or in some other countries. i think that that would have been a major weston reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the of this case is damaging to democracy and democracy address system of government as opposed to, i told, prosy? i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about ryan, which countries like the united states and started proclaimed to liberal writers and certainly support freedom of oppression and make a point of supporting journalists around the world in other countries in other countries. yeah, and that's, that's,

that's right in the country. but when it's come to a case involving an australian citizen getting in entangled with the us legal system. it's been a very different attitude taken. and, you know, i think that does to damage to nations because what it shows that critical now it should, i think more difficult for countries like australia or the united states to preach to the rest of the world. the universal values, which we all share when assigned time, they've got a case such and where people rightly then say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you're support universal liberal values including freedom of the press. on the other hand, you're going after a person. it was done more than just by any chance to explore the truth of the operations. the united states is choose that involves

many sounds. if not, millions of people that also has to be mentioned is still just about the united states. it's about the security of the whole world. anyway, mr. barbie, we have to live here. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week. and of course in the me i welcome to max as his financial survival guide, looking forward to year as we go. yeah. this is what happens,

dimensions in britain. del, at this happens, you watch kaiser report july, an annual festival in st. petersburg dedicated to dust i ascii. ah, the great writer, think around psychologist, people often turn to his work to understand russia and russians perhaps even themselves. they put, they sing on, what do you see, what they think about the flooding needs, changing a rita, transforming them as they read that does die. estes unique ability to stay ascii wants to tell us you can better yourself. he makes you face your true self and we could move beyond conventions, rules of schemes beyond the boundaries and time. dostoevsky is a global brand whose classics, as everyone knows, i'm never out of style with

the top headline right here. we're not seeing international tennis superstore, no backdrop, it's set to be deported from australia, offer a court upholds the decision to cancel his visa. this means he will miss the australia open, which starts in less than 24 up with those when the stories are shaped, the weak aeronautics international high stakes told over ukraine between russia and nato have wrapped up with moscow, accusing the alliance of trying to wind the back of the plot that, that of the cold war nato understands the principle of the indivisibility of security selectively. if nato applies a policy of containment against russia, moscow will have to take a calendar with also cuddle your pets and do star jobs. if you want to stay.