a oh, a for almost a decade in confinement doing the sancha is a shadow of them and used to be fighting against extradition. request to be united states has taking a toll on his physical and mental health. well, also compromising weekly ability to continue its operation with the latest ruling by british or to hampton over to washington. what's in store? one of the world's most recognized whistleblowers to discuss that now and join by

reg barnes and astronomy lawyer and an adviser to doing the sanchez trailing campaign. mr. barnes is great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. now let me start from afar. a few weeks ago the european parliament ordered it suffer a price and the human rights price due to russian. the position after this, the bombing was serving time in prison on a parole violation charges. what many in the was believed to be politically motivated than that. his daughter doughty out while accepting the prize and he raised the following question, let me read it for you. why is it so hard to free from community those who are fighting for human rights? why are they still their own in jail? not only all over the world, but in a european, geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you think the question is relevant to mr. sanchez?

what i think there's any doubt that it's relevant to the assigned case. this has been a prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me graciously that the former is tried in prime minister. john howard is certainly not a fan of a son's, but a conservative back in 2000. and so the end of a was struggling to see what crime assigned to committed. so even on the right of politics and some of the most loyal you wish allies the skepticism about this case . but in these case about human rights, because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold the us to account. you mentioned journalists around the world, then drilling massage, received a number of pam freedom prizes or pan prizes in europe. but official western institutions, which are supposedly dedicated to human rights, have never recognized him as a prisoner a question. why do you think that is?

well, i think it's starting to change a little bit. i'm, i would say an amnesty international become very vocal, and he's trying to times look a suspect that you know, the u. s. pressure is not f as us pressure to say, assigns in a certain latin pressure. you know, they, we have graciously, of course, the un, sorry that the united states are talking about game and right. talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk, you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. it comes out on the one hand we believe in press freedom, but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julia massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes a lot of people really mad about the, the case you putting here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is straight in citizen, these electrons down. that's wrong. now you said that you can talk the talk without walking to walk, and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely

a biased observer share, but i think that's been western policy for many years. and julian, indeed did a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now, having said that, as a lawyer, do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values or rather simply a state is you humanitarian grounds? well, i think that, you know, as a lawyer, when you've got a very political cation that much political miss, you've always got to read, especially the court process shops, of course. so, but now an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the highest court. this case, she needs a political resolution issues in a straight and citizen ways being counted down by strike as t l i. the nodded sex with the ability of serving probably serving an effect in excess of $170.00 and so that's what it takes to share the pure legal room.

and it does become highly political. and there's no doubt that you've tried and government needs to get much more involved in this case as the new car government because they're all participants along with the risk in this process. and it also cost down quite a lot of rep from where adapt. jeff, maintaining police presence outside the court, or an embassy in london, cost british taxpayer somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds. it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think christie is not only american? without the bureaucracy this persistent and so willing to spend in the pursuit of julian, isn't about the person or more about the principal was difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's tax and united states. and

you can try to kind of this, i think there's no doubt that the security state in the united states as being and the military style in the united states has been embarrassed by the revelations which will be lakes is put out every reviews, particularly for example, a collateral murphy or the fact that, that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states. and that's kind of a rock, and there's no debt that the united states is determined that the man and you can only explain what is otherwise a highly irrational conduct calia rational conduct on a government which purports to subscribe to the rule of law. i'm wondering if at this point it's more of the case of political retribution, you know, making those embarrassing or revelations, or is it still about damage control as far as you can tell,

do you think julian assange can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging the american powers that be i think that there is a combination of motivations for firstly, there is a determination by the security state to get anyone to days to ensure there's greater transparency in the way the security side. all right. and whether it's an individual, whether it's an organization, do they want to stop that person from doing anything else? i think in the assange case, it's probably at this point that is to keep going with this case because i want to frighten into 2 other journalists around the world. and smart journalists are working out the fact that this case has really implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. well, let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous is, this is really the 1st occasion that the united states has sought to use

a laws against a person who hasn't entered the jurisdiction, who is not an american citizen whose published information didn't adverse to the american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the global community. but what is the significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr. there's not out. it's, it's, it's designed to set a very damaged person as you roderick this is, this is sort of extra territorial rate. in other words, you don't have to be an added to this. you don't have to set foot in the united states. it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states seems to be barren embarrassing war country to its national security was trying to strike in journalists as written in the same st. i want to stand the consequences of discussion. so that's why it's really, i mean, it's ironic,

of course to strike to racially criticize the chinese government, the new laws in hong kong. one of one aspect of which was that any journals to criticize china, even without being in china, could be subject to the last. let's try to criticize that. this is no difference. this is the 1st time that domestic is been honest, legislation has been i'm that someone who has no connection to the us years now. mr . sanchez has been able to evade extradition for almost a decade. but it seems that this factor of it is now more con critize than ever. you mentioned the, the ruling by a british sport, by the in fact the u. k. high court. that allows for that extradition, do you think we receive? well, i think what we're likely to say play out now. what we should say play up is

a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds. you've got a person who's ration still more. she's got a real at a mom struck. you've got a person who's kept in belmont prison, one of the toughest prisons in the united kingdom, and they've been there for some time. and there's no resolution inside. she humanity, children that are not so not. and that's the terror of a lot of the debate in a strike. the politicians who, for example, have not been a cost analysis, destroyed in government, has an obligation to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more than that. there is a sort of shock, and so while the speak to the court cases lose this place and the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health has suffered enormously as you should in your introduction, is a shadow of use for myself. the anguish to himself and to reach family is such that

i think that there are many, many people that any great particularly interesting because you are now sanction humanities and i sympathize with everything you say. it's really painful to see a human being suffering from such an extent, regardless of one know what mr. sanchez contribution to transparency in human rights is. but do you think that's enough? i'm in showing him some quantity or apathy on humanitarian grounds. we've got a labor concerns that you specify a couple. busy of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply it's, it's loss whatever it wants to, whoever it was at whatever reason it was. well, you know, i think that's a very good question. the real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. is k, i was australia and united kingdom,

most recently coming together with the orchestra concert to washington. we really made a resolution of this man. this is straining the relationship. we've got a lot of domestic pressure. you can in the strength to say in this, we need to win them. and hopefully political sense and common sense and humanity wins out. i mean, if you, it was making a point about it, it might the point over and over again because mr. has been rightly trying to avoid going to united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american system . now you mentioned that i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active. ordering astronomy recently arriving with china and lots of promises of industrial and military how the united states, washington needs

a for its own geopolitical game. do you think it's likely to make your government more subservient politically or on the country? more sort of assertive, including indications you well just give you an example that you might recall back in about 2004. we have started citizen, david hicks, who had previously been found, i think, in afghanistan, allegedly trying to without got taken to one kind of by a couple of years. they was to mission, political pressure on the prime minister, john how to when he went to washington and said, i need you to do me a favor. i need to get that out of there and i need to get in contact. and then i have, so there is a recent pre should for an a stride and get signed if you wish. well, you don't get a more ally than us. you know, we're extremely cost. so we need you to do this for us. now there is nothing stopping in australia, government doing it, it's been done before by a conservative government, which is the current government office. and we've got

a firm industry started and a number of other very distinguished trends were signed to account promise to stop . morrison on the farm is to merge time that he's got such a bank of will in washington use it. it's about as we have to take a short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments. ha, ah, now we have a, i just heard that it was a healthy alternative to cigarettes. do we trust tobacco companies with their message that these new products are actually going to reduce these sugars are making the tobacco it ah,

welcome back to well, the regular incentives, trillion lawyer. i'm an advisor to join us on trailing campaign. and before the break, we were talking about how this a long battle known, extradition has cost a lot in terms of his mental and physical health. it's taken many years of his life, d thing. in hindsight it was worth it. what it was absolutely was. and you know, as some of the references in the human rights, more area. this was a case where he legitimately saw asylum rightly sort asylum in the view of many of us because he would have been tortured in united states. it has, of course, be worth it in the sense that he has done as brought everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is far from committed to more when searched so

to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally is that julian, gillian assange remains for many people around the world. i figure of hope, figure of hope in the sense that someone committed to transparency committed to me showing the public knows the truth. so i need to know, since it has been with, i mean the tall has been terrible and they need to be something done urgently to ensure that he self is restore. you mentioned the torture that she could have face and still face in being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, that torture have visited upon human radium in saying and confinement for, for a daycare. you know, it's hard for anyone and sometimes if it's a question but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those spheres. and all those dangers of them. eric

and imprisonment would have lacking with with more house or more ability to serve. he has cost because nelson mandela, after all, state prison for quite some time. but he's been influential in that now to narrow it down. what do you think towards that could happen to mister a sounds, if indeed, the extradition requested granted implemented, we could guy, and i'm not, i'm not exaggerating that they could die. certainly whether he stays in your prison system. but secondly, if you guys knew reps amnesty international my point, i would like to say that they assurance is given by lawyers acting for us in the appeals court should be triggered very cautiously. if i can seriously. because even if we accept that assurances by the united states

government that he would get proper health care that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept from that they were in fact the instructions from washington to his child was what goes on on the ground. the person says we all know is very, very different. and so those guarantees, you know, i've seen some meetings that the risk for mr. sanchez is his life. and that's not a place that any to just should be in anywhere in the world. we know what happens if, of course, but it shouldn't be going to particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course, it's not mr. barnes, it's well known. the julian expansion, wiccan, pagan gods, themselves to be cross hairs of many powerful actors. not only american, but also international. they published embarrassing information about the saudi government, about the russian government, about the turkish government, as well as about many american actors. we should be investigations,

the thing proved most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez. current predicament. well, i would still maintain a class for murder, video, the revelations of 2010, 2011. about see it as a war in which the united states was gauge. i don't, i think it was. i'm pretty sure i did, and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course, that's what he's on trough only a number of people here in australia for example, we took issue with they the accusation never approved by the way that the to the day and say, miles were in some way. an orchestrated the chamber by various actors to divine us . let's go a spade by name russian actors because this is how it is. but just to just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me,

over the years here in australia room, some journals saw well, what about that ish? that issue is completely irrelevant to why join the funds in silver, captains of the united kingdom and the united states. just the mind completely irrelevant and it's really important for people to focus on that fact that it doesn't matter. what else wookey lakes is alleged or not? that's completely irrelevant to this particular catch send. that's what way they signed the people in a straight. and i have to say a number of people who now supported the sergeant strike. they have actually made that point. we don't particularly like some of the things that he likes, what he likes has done, but that's not the point. and that's right, the focus has to be on why of each that he finds himself in intolerable conditions in a breach. first, it's much less publicized by dmc in $2900.00 tried to go off to a we can leaks and challenge the delay gallon relations and their soup was actually

dismissed with their use charge in the case that we did not participate in any role doing obtaining the materials and therefore what within the law of publishing this information, and that makes me question whether it be your legal system is indeed so hopelessly biased against julian assigned because there were contrary examples. and i want to shine here is that the us, it's got the worst legal system and when it comes to waste me an arch cuts and when it comes to espionage crisis been tried in the eastern district of virginia. we juries routinely drawn from the families of f, b, i c, i a and other national security members. it is possible to get a free trial. that's what it might be that the united states, the justice system, innovation, right? decisions out of the u. s. supreme court is on civil rights that you should,

you should use the trial crisis here and whether now on the way the american officials and presented the d and c case was essential to try to compromise julianna's non just reputation by its suppose in relationship or association. with the russians, and there was a claim made, including by anonymous intelligence officers. and this material was that to him by the russians, even those of south maintain that it was an internal league. do you think the big question of procurement of this materials have any relevance on the practicalities of the case of the term i city facing? i would say no, because this guys managed well before the commission, when for a sort of a grand jury

are sitting investigating this particular allegations for many project him being charged. so i think it, do you think it will be limited to that initial case? and he's revelations about iraq and afghanistan because, you know, he, to some extent is being tried in the, for the public opinion. and this is, you know, what you're doing here as well. you're trying to, you know, gain a momentum for public sympathy. so again, and i think we discussed that before. is it the strictly legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well, i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion, there's not, there's been a shift. last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia, bobby joyce's a conservative, right. a very strong base in a straight and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later,

marco griffin was one of the chief lawyer enforcement officers in australia. make sure look points, and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice, shy? look, we're not particularly weighted to wiki lakes, sympathetic with lakes for such that there are fundamental principles stated in relation to this is trying to see this and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying, this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids, is the guy with this is a guy who's just had a minus struck in prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. we don't do respect, you the a strong agree public if you need anything or what matters the most. here is the american public opinion, and i think there has been a concerted efforts. yes. so said, we can links and julie and assigned with the trump campaign,

even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like, choosing gets in color. i'm going to ria back and she said that you want to refer and neither of them. now, the fact that neither of them is neither of them mind power anymore and both aren't and it's sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him, or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the, the american public and then relevant to the american public. i think at the end of the this is a matter where i t, l i, of the united states, could simply its prime minister scott morris to pick up the phone and get a deal irrespective of a u. s. public. having said that, there's not work, it's been done by julian. father jones shipped with em. i'm fairly close. he's

brought a gabriel ship in. united states has shifted public opinion. there is strong public support for julian assange in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter, irrespective of public opinion in other countries. i started this conversation by a referencing alex st. involved and there are many other positions, acres whose prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west bay if a case like this where it to play out in china in russia or. busy in some other countries, i think that that would have been a major western reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the, of these cases damaging to democracy? democracy as a system of government as opposed to a toll prosy? i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about why and

which countries like the united states and started trying to support right then certainly support freedom of push and make a point of support in general around the world other countries. and that's, that's right, in other countries. but when it comes to a case involving an australian citizen getting entangled with legal system, it's been a very different attitude taken. and, you know, i think that does do damage to the nations because what it shows that a critical now it makes it more difficult for countries like australia or the united states to preach risk the will, the universal values which will fit in a way, people rightly they say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you support universal liberal values including freedom of

the press. on the other hand, you're going after 1st. it was done more than just, but each of us to expose the truth of the operations. the united states is a truth that involves many thousands, if not millions of people that also has to be mentioned. it's not just about the united states, it's about the security of well, anyway, mr. but if we have to leave it here, thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for what she hope to hear again next week on with me

in ah, think what brought it up on this particular quote man, he believes keith is going to push and push it. if i had a fever there just somebody. somebody from a few minutes ago was 3. see what i still the problem started at the but i bought a vehicle in your school because you believe about who did get hope. all right, so um what you, what would be if, if you know this was a way i would like it by here for a weaker clear from what i show up for documents that are in your bill.

ah mm. top. had like right now here are naughty international tennis superstar novak brokovich has been deported from australia after a court upholds the decision to cancel his visa. this means he is going to miss the australian oakland which starts in less than 24 hours. and in the story that shaped the weekend on t high stakes told over ukraine between russia and nato have wrapped up with moscow, accusing the alliance of trying to wind back the cloth the times of the cold war. nato understands the principle of the indivisibility of security selectively. if nato applies a policy of containment against russia, moscow will have to take a calendar with cuddle your pets and do star jobs. if you want to stay warm this

winter. a major british energy company feels the heat for it so so cold advice.