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tv   Worlds Apart  RT  January 16, 2022 2:30pm-3:00pm EST

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violation charges in what many in the was believed to be politically motivated than that. his daughter doughty, while accepting, deprive them he because raised the following question, let me read it for you. why it's so hard to read from cosivity those cos sliding for human rights. why are they still owning jails? not only all over the world, but in a european, geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you think this question is relevant to mr. sanchez case? and if there's any doubt that it's relevant to the assigned case, this has been a legal prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me recently that the former stride in prime minister john howard is certainly not a fan of astonishment and a conservative back in 2000. so the end of a was struggling to see what crime assigns is committed. so even on the right of politics and some of the most loyal us, charlotte is skepticism about this case. but in these case about human rights,
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because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold the us to account. you mentioned journalists around the world, them drilling massage, received a number of pam freedom prizes, or pan prizes in europe. but official western institutions, which are supposedly dedicated to human rights, have never recognized him as a prisoner functions. why do you think that is? well, i think it's starting to change a little bit with strain. amnesty international become very vocal and he's trying to times look a suspect that you know, there's us, the pressure is not f, as us pressure to say a signs in a certain latin pressure they, we have graciously, of course, the un, sorry that the united states are talking about game and rock talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk,
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you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. it comes out on the one hand we believe in press freedom. but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julia massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes a lot of people really mad about the, the case you're putting here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is tried in citizen, these electron done that's wrong. now you said that you can talk the talk without walking to walk, and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely a biased observer share, but i think that's been western policy for many years. and julian indeed did a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now having said that, as a lawyer, do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values, or rather simply a state in humanitarian grounds. well, i think that, you know,
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as a lawyer, when you've got a very political cation that much political miss, you've always got to read the court process. shucks, of course. so, but now an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the highest court this case, she needs a political resolution. this isn't a straight and citizen waste being counted down by strike his t l i. the nodded states with the ability of serving probably serving an effect in excess of $170.00 and so that's what it takes to show the pure legal row. and it does become holly political. and there's no doubt that you try and government needs to get much more involved in this case as those you kind of go because they're all participants along with the risk in this process. and it also cost down quite a lot. i read somewhere that i guess maintaining police presence outside they were,
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they were an embassy in london, cost of british taxpayers somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds and it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think veracruz is not only american to receive another bureaucracy, this persistent and so willing to spend in their pursuit of julian? a, sorry, is it about that person or more about the principal? well, it's difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's taxwise in the united states, and that kind of strategy will tank this. i think there's no doubt that the security state in the united states has been and the military stay in the united states has been embarrassed by the revelations which wiki lakes has put out numb reviews, particularly for example, the collateral murder video. the fact that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states and have kind of a rock. and there's no debts that the united states is determined to have
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a man. you can only explain what is otherwise a highly a russian conduct collie. a russian conduct on the part of a government which purports to subscribe to the rule of law. i wonder if at this point, it's more we came to political retribution. you know him making those embarrassing revelations or is it still about damage control as far as you can tell, do you think julia massage can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging to the american powers that be i think that there is a combination of motivations personally, there is, i get terminated by the security state to get anyone who days to ensure there's great transparency and the way the security side operates. and whether that's an individual, whether it's an organization, or did i want to stop that person from doing anything else?
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i think in the assigned case, it's probably at this point that is to keep going with this case because i want to frighten and deter other journalists around the world. and, and smart journalists are working up to the fact that this case has real implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous, is that this is really the occasion that the united states has thought to use the math and ours laws against a person who hasn't entered the user during dixon, who is not an american citizen who's published information adverse to the american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the local community. but what is the significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr? there's no doubt it's. it's just on to say,
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i very damage question. as you rightly sign this, this is sort of extra territorial rate. in other words, you don't have to be an artist. you don't have to set foot in the united states. it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states to be barren embarrassing a country to its national security. a low strike australian journalist, as i say, written the same thing. i want to stand the consequences of this case. so that's why it's really important. i mean, it's ironic of course to the your recently criticize the chinese government, the new laws in hong kong. 11 aspect of which was that any journals to criticize china, even without being in china, could be subject to the laws ms trying to write the criticized. this is no different. this is, this is the 1st time that mr. financial discretion. i'm that someone who has no connection to the us jurisdiction. now mister sounds has been able to evade
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extradition for almost a decade. but it seems that the spectrum of it is now more concrete ties than ever . you mentioned the, the ruling by british forth by the, in fact the u. k. high court that allows for that extradition. do you think we will see? will look, i think what we're likely to say play out now, what we should say play up. so should say, is a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds. you've got a person who's fresh still more. she's got a mock stroke. you've got a person who's kept in belmont person, one of the toughest persons in united kingdom. and there's been there for some time and there's no resolution. and so she humanity, that's enough. and that's the tenor of a lot of the by doing a straight in politicians who for example, have not been supportive of
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a sergeant pastor, now so destroyed in government, has an obligation to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more than that. there's already stuff and so while the speak to refer the court cases lose this place and the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health has suffered enormously, as you said, in your introduction, as a shadow of it for myself. the anguish to himself and his family is such that i think there are many, many people without any great, particularly interesting because you are now sanction or humanity with everything you say, it's really painful to see a human being suffering from such an extent, regardless of what mr sanchez contribution to transparency and human rights is but do you think that's enough? i'm in showing him some quantity or i can see on humanity and grounds. would that
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lay the concerns that you specify a couple of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply its it's laws, whatever it wants to, whoever it wants, and whatever reason it's ones. i think that's a very good question. i think the real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. k, i was australia and united kingdom, most recently coming together with the orchestra concert or washington. we really made a resolution of this. this is straining the relationship. we've got a lot of the mystic pressure question. you're trying to say in this we need to win them and hopefully political sense and common sense and humanity wins out. i mean, if you, it was making a point about it, it's my point over and over again because mr. has been rightly trying to avoid join the united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american system
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. now you mentioned that i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active. ordering astronomy or recently. it's rivalry with china and lots of promises of industrial and military how the united states washington needs a for its own geopolitical game. do you think it's likely to make your government more subservient politically or on the country and more sort of assertive, including indication? well, just give you an example. you may recall back in about 2004, we astride and she was indicted hicks, who had previously been found, i think, in afghanistan, allegedly trying to without got taken to one kind of by a couple of years. they was domestic political pressure on the prime minister,
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john how to when he went to washington and said, i need you to do me a favor. i need to get out of there and i need to get in and that happen. so there is a recent stride and get signed to the us. well, you know, i get a more ally than us. you know, we're extremely cost. so we need you to do this for us. now, there is nothing stopping in australian government doing it. it's been done before by a conservative government, which is the current government office. and we've got a student and a number of other very distinguished australians who assigned to thomas scott morrison performance. tomorrow's time that he's got such a bank of will in washington use it. it's about we have to take a short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments here. ah
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ah, ah. a time with oh, driven by dreamer shapes bankers and those with
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airs sinks. we dare to ask ah, who welcome back to wells apartment, rent florence, and astro in lawyer and an advisor to julian sanchez. this trillion campaign, mr. barnes. before the break, we were talking about how this a long battle for non extradition has cost a lot in terms of mental and physical. how is taken many years of his life? do you think in hindsight it was worth it?
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what it was absolutely worth and some of the system of human rights, more area. this was a cash way, legitimately a song riley sort of saw him in the view of many of us because he would've been taught in united states. and it has, of course, been worth it in the sense that money has done as everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is committed to more when so to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally is that julian. so a reminder, for many people around the world, i figure a figure of hope in the sense that someone committed to transparency committed to ensuring the public just trying to know since it's been with. i mean, the poll has been terrible and they know to be something done urgently to ensure
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that you mentioned the torture that face. and it was still face in being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, not torture has been visited upon him already. i mean, staying in confinement for a day that, you know, it's hard for anyone and sometimes, you know, it's a philosophical question, but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those theories and all those dangers of the american imprisonment would have lacking with, with more house or more ability to, you know, serve his cost because, nelson mandela, after all, you know, stayed in prison for quite some time, but he's been influential in that now to narrow it down. what do you think the wars that could happen to mr. assange? if indeed, the extradition or request is granted and implemented,
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we could die. and i'm not, i'm not exaggerating, that they could die. certainly whether he stays in your prison system. but secondly, if he goes to your apps, amnesty international, my point and i would like to sign that they assurances given by lawyers acting for us in the appeals court should be treated very cautiously. if a, if i can seriously. because even if we accept that assurances by the united states government that he would get proper health care that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept for much that they were in fact the instructions from washington to east giles. what goes on the grounding person says we all know is very, very different. and so those guarantees, you know, i've seen some meetings that the risk for mr. sanchez is his life. and that's not a place that any citizen should be in anywhere in the world. we know it happens if of course, but it shouldn't be particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got
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a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course, it's not mr. barnes, it's well known. the julian expansion, wiccan god, themselves, to be cross hairs of many powerful actors. not only american, but also international. they published embarrassing information about the saudi government, about the russian government and the turkish government, as well as about many american actors. we should be investigations, the thing proved most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez. current predicament. well, i would still maintain a class for murder, video, the revelations of 2010, 2011 that see it as a war in which the united states was gauge. i don't, i think it was. i'm pretty sure i did. and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course that's what he's on trial. only
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a number of people here in australia for example, we took issue with the accusation, never approach. by the way, that the to the day and say, miles were in some way, an orchestrated to change by various actors to us. so let's go paid by name russian actors because this is how it is, i mean, but just to just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me, over the years, your instructor and some journal saw well, what about that ish that issue is completely irrelevant to why join the funding, sober captain of the united kingdom and the united states, just a moment completely around and it's really important for people to focus on that fact that it doesn't matter. what else will be lakes is alleged or not. that's completely irrelevant to this particular case and that's what we've been signed the paperwork started. and i have to say
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a number of people who now supported the sergeant strike. they have actually made that point. we don't particularly like some of the things that he likes, what he likes it's done, but that's not the point. and that's right, the focus has to be on why of each that he finds himself in intolerable conditions in a breach. first, it's much less publicized by dmc in $2900.00 tried to go off to a we can leaks and challenge the delay gallon relations. and there was actually dismissed with kind of their a use charge indicates that we did not participate in any role doing, obtaining the materials. and therefore, what within the law of publishing this information, and that makes me question whether it be your legal system is in deep so hopelessly biased against julian assigned because there were contrary examples. no one is showing here that the us just got the worst legal system and bash when it comes to
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espionage cuts. and when it comes to espionage crisis, been tried in the eastern district of virginia with jury's routinely drawn from the families of f. b i. c, i a and other national security st. i mean, this is to get a free trial. that's what it might be that the united states, the justice system, integration, right? decisions out of the u. s. supreme court of these and civil rights that you should, you should use the trial crisis here and whether now on the way the american officials and presented the d and c case was essential to try to compromise jolena sanchez reputation by its suppose its relationship or association with the russians, and there was a claim made, including by anonymous intelligence officers. and this material was that to him by the russians, even those of south maintained that it was an internal league. do you think the big
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question of procurement of this materials has any relevance on the practicalities of the case of the current i city facing? i would say no, because this guys managed well before that mr. guys, commission when for a short a song in the industry, grand jury or c, investigating this particular allegations for many project him being charged. so i think that conflict of sure do you think it will be limited to that initial case? and that is revelations about iraq and afghanistan because, you know, he, to some extent is being tried in the, for the public opinion. and this is, you know, what you're doing here as well. you're trying to, you know, gain a momentum for public sympathy. so again,
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and i think we discussed that before. is it strictly a legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion, there's not, there's been a shift. last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia. bobby joyce is a conservative, right. a very strong base in a straight and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later, michael griffin was one of the chief lower enforcement officers in us. try to make sure look points and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice shy, look, we're not particularly way to to wiki lakes, sympathetic with lakes for such that there are fundamental principles stated in relation to this is tried incentives and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying,
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this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids. this is a guy with, this is a guy who just had a, a minus struck in a u k. prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. well, do respect you, the a strong agree is probably if you need anything or what matters the most care is the american public opinion, and i think there has been a concerted efforts. yes. so said we can make some julian assigned with the trump campaign, even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like choosing the color i'm going to ria back at extension 3 or refer and neither of them. now the fact that neither of them is neither of them, i'm power anymore, and bulls are in a sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him? or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the,
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the american public and then relevant to the american public. i think at the end of the this is a matter where a t l, of the united states could simply its prime minister scott morris to pick up the phone and get a deal irrespective of a us public. a pretty. having said that, there's not work that's been done by julian, father john shift and with em, i'm fairly close. he's brought a gabrielle shift in united states has shifted opinion. there is strong public julian assange in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter, irrespective of public opinion in the country. i started this conversation by referencing alex, in a volunteer. there are many other positions, vickers, who, prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west bay if
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a case like this where it's way out in china, in russia or in some other countries. i think that that would have been a major western reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the, of this case is damaging to democracy and democracy as a system of government? as opposed to, i told pretty i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about why and which countries like the united states and starting point to support right then certainly support freedom of push and make a point of support in general around the world in other countries, and that's, that's right in the country. but when it's come to a case involving an australian citizen getting entangled with the us legal system. it's been a very different attitude. and you know,
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i think that does do damage to the nations because what it shows that a critical now it makes it more difficult for countries like australia or the united states to preach to the rest of the world. the universal values which will assign time that's going to a way people rightly they say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you support universal liberal values including freedom of the press. on the other hand, you're going after 1st was done more than just, but each of us to expose the truth of the operations. the united states is a truth that involves many thousands, if not millions of people that also has to be mentioned. it's not just about the united states, it's about the security of well anyway, mr. but if we have to leave it here, thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for what she hope to hear
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again next week on the with me. ah. with join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. i'll be speaking to guess in the world of politics, spoke business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm.
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