ah, welcome to us, and we're almost in confinement. julianna's sanchez is a shadow of him and he used to be fighting against extradition. requests to the united states has taking a toll on his physical and mental health. well also compromising. we kill x ability to continue its operations with only just ruling by british port to hampton over to washington. what's in store one of the world's most recognized whistleblowers? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by reg barnes. in astronomy, a lawyer and an advisor to doing the sanchez australian campaign, mr. martin's grade to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. now let me start from afar. a few weeks ago, the european parliament ordered it suffer a price and the human rights price to the russian. the position act to this, the look scene of all makes was serving time in prison on a parole violation charges in many in the was believe to be

a politically motivated than that. and his daughter doughty and while accepting the prize on his behalf raised the following question, let me read it for you. why is it so hard to free from connectivity? those who are fighting for human rights? why are they still thrown in jail? not only all over the world, but in european geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you think this question is relevant to mr. sanchez? case? what i think, just any doubt that it's relevant to the assigned case, this has been a prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me, graciously, the performers tried in prime minister john howard is certainly not a fan of a son's, but a conservative said back in 2000. and so the end of a was struggling to see what crime assigns committed. so even on the rock of politics and some of the most loyal you wish allies the skepticism about this case

. but in these a case about human rights, because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold the us to account. you mentioned journalists around the world, then drilling massage, received a number of pan freedom primers, or pan prizes in europe. but official western institutions, which are supposedly dedicated to human rights, have never recognized him as a prisoner functions. why do you think that is? well, i think it's starting to change a little bit in mind. we've seen amnesty international, the count, very vocal and he's tracy rich times. but look a suspect that you know, there's us pressure is not app, is us pressure to say a signs in a certain latin pressure? you know, they, we have graciously, of course, the un, sorry that the united states are talking about game and rights talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk,

you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. you can say on the one hand we believe in press freedom, but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julian massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes a lot of people really mad about the case, including here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is, start in citizen, these electron done that's wrong. now you said that you can a told me to talk without walking to walk and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely a biased observer. sure, but i think that's been western policy for many years. and doing indeed did a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now, having said that, as a lawyer, do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values or rather simply a state in humanitarian grounds? well, i think that, you know, as a lawyer, when you've got

a very political cation that much will political miss. you've always got to read the court process shops, of course. so, but now an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the high schools this case, she needs a political resolution issues and straight and citizen waste being counted down by a stride as to the nodded steps with a body of serving probably serving an effect in excess of $100.00 should be and so that's what it takes to catch up the pure wiggle room. and it does become holly political. and there's no doubt that you're trying and government needs to get much more involved in this case. as doesn't you kind of go? because they're all participants along with the risk in this process. and it also cost down quite a lot. i've read somewhere that i guess maintaining police presence outside of

a quote or an embassy in london. cost of british taxpayers somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds and it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think veracruz is not only american to receive another bureaucracy, this persistent and so willing to spend in their pursuit of doing a son? is it about that person or more about the principal was difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's tax and united states, and you can try to find this. i think there's no doubt that the security state in the united states as being and the military style in the united states has been embarrassed by the revelations which would be lakes is put out every review. particularly, for example, a collateral murphy or the fact that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states. and that's kind of rock. and there's no debt that

the united states is determined that the man and you can only explain what is otherwise a highly irrational conduct. carly, a rational conduct on the part of a government which reports to subscribe to the rule of law. i wonder if this point, it's more of the case of political retribution, you know, he making those embarrassing revelations, or is it still about damage control? as far as you can tell, do you think julian assigned can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging the american powers that be? i think that there is a combination of motivations. personally, there is a determination by the security state to get anyone to days to ensure there's greater transparency in the way the security start operates. and whether it's an individual, whether it's an organization,

do i want to stop that person from doing anything else? i think in the assange case, it's probably at this point that is, that they keep going with this case because i want to frighten the 2 other journalists around the world. and smart journalists are working out the fact that this case has really implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. well, let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous that this is really the occasion that the united states has sought to use domestic espionage laws against a person who hasn't entered the years for your addiction. who is not an american citizen whose published information didn't adverse to the american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the global community. but what is the significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr. assange?

this is not us it's, it's just on to say i very damage. as you rock side this, this is sort of extra territorial rate. in other words, you don't have to be an artist, but since you don't have to set foot in the united states, it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states to be barest, embarrassing country to its national security. a low strike, a strong and journalist, as i say, written the same thing. i want to stand the consequences of this guy. so that's why it's really, i mean, it's ironic, of course of struggle recently criticize the chinese government, the new laws in hong kong. $11.00 aspect of which was that any journals to criticize china, even without being in china, could be subject to the laws ms. trying to write to criticize that this is no different, this is the 1st time that the mitigation actually discretion has been. i'm that someone who has no connection to the u. s. jurisdiction. now mr. sanchez has been

able to evade extradition for almost a decade, but it seems that the spectrum of it is now more concrete ties than ever. you mentioned the, the ruling by british or by b. in fact, the u. k. high court that allows for that extradition, do you think we will see will look, i think what we're likely to say play out now. what we should say play up so should say, is a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds. you've got a person who's fresh, are you still more? she's gotten a feel at mom stroke. you've got a person who's kept in bell, my person, one of the toughest persons in the united kingdom. and there's been there for some time and there's no resolution. and so she humanity shows that on us enough. and that's the tenor of a lot of the by doing a straight in politicians who,

for example, have not a cost analysis destroyed in government, has an obligation to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more than that. there is a sort of shock and so while the speak to refer the court cases lose this place and the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health has suffered enormous layers. you should in your introduction as a shadow of the form. so the anguish to and show from to reach family is such that i think there are many, many people that any great particularly interesting because you are now sexual humanities and a sympathize with everything you say. it's really painful to see a human being suffering from such an extent, regardless of one know what mr. sanchez contribution to transparency in human rights is. but do you think that's enough?

i mean, i'm showing some of your empathy on humanitarian grounds. we've got a labor concerns that you specify the couple of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply. it's, it's laws, whatever it wants to, whoever it wants, and whatever reason it wants. well, you know, i think that's a very good question. a real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. k, i was australia and united kingdom, most recently coming together with the orchestra can say to washington, we really made a resolution of this man. this is straining the relationship. we've got a lot of domestic pressure, a new kind in the strike to say in this we need to win them and hopefully political sense and common sense and humanity wins out. i mean, if you, it was making a point about it, it might the point over and over again because mr. sanchez has been rightly trying

to avoid join the united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american prison system. now you mentioned that i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active ordering a trailer recently. and it's a rivalry with china and lots of promises of industrial and military how the united states washington needs a strongly for its own geopolitical game. and do you think it's likely to make your government more subservient politically or on the country more sort of assertive, including indication well, i'll just give you an example. in my record, back in about 2040 a straight and citizen, david hicks, who had previously been found, i think an african allegedly trying with al qaeda taken to one kind of

abuse day. there was domestic political pressure on the name prime minister john howard when he went to washington and said, i need you to tell me if i need to get out of there and i need to get him and that happen. so there is a racial, appreciate it for straight and get signed to the us. look, you know, get a more loyal, i live in us, you know, where extremely cost. so we need you to do this for us. now there is nothing stopping in australian government doing it. it's been done before by a conservative government, which is the current government office. and we've got people like a former foreign minister and start a car. and a number of other very distinguished straightens. and we're saying to the current promise to stop morrison and the foreign minister maria pain that got such a bank of will in washington use it. it's the barnes. we have to take a short break right now, but just a few moments to me

or i badges, financial survival guy. when customers go buy, you reduce the price, then l reduce a lower that's under cutting, but what's good for food market is that good for the global economy? with? mm hm. welcome back to wells apart. frank lawrence and it's trillion lawyer and an

advisor to join us on justice trailing campaign. mr. barnes. before the break, we were talking about how this a long battle for non extradition has cost a lot in terms of mental and physical how it's taken many years of his life. do you think in hindsight it was worth it? what it was absolutely worth and some of the system, the human rights were area. this was a cash way, legitimately short a song rightly sort of. so i'm in the view of many of us because he would have been taught in united states. and it has, of course, been worth it in the sense that money has done as everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is committed to more when so to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally is that julia, julia such remind for many people around the world, i figure

a figure in the sense that someone committed to transparency committed to ensuring that the public knows the truth. and you know, since it's been with, i mean the poll has been terrible and they know to be something done urgently to ensure that you mentioned the torture that face. and it was still face in being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, not torture has been visited upon him already. and in staying in confinement for a decade, you know, it's hard for anyone and sometimes, you know, it's a philosophical question, but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those theories. and all those dangers of the american imprisonment would have lacking with, with more house or more ability to, you know, serve his cost because, nelson mandela, after all, you know,

stayed in prison for quite some time. but he's been influential in that now to narrow it down. what do you think the wars that could happen to mr. assange? if indeed the extradition or request is granted and implemented, we could die and i'm not exaggerating that they could die. certainly whether he stays in your prison system. but secondly, if he goes near it's amnesty international. my point and i would like the sign that they assurance is given by lawyers acting from us in the appeals should be triggered very cautiously. if, if i can seriously, because even if we accept that assurances by the united states government that he would get probably health gay, and that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept from much. but that they were in fact the instructions from washington to east giles. what goes on on the ground, the person says we all know is very, very different. and so those guarantees,

you know, i've seen some meetings that the risk for mr. sanchez is his life. and that's not a place that any students should be in anywhere in the world. we know it happens if course, but it shouldn't be particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course, it's not mr. barnes. it's well known that the drilling expansion of wiccan, pagan gods, themselves and to be cross hairs of many powerful actors. not only americans, but also international. they published embarrassing information about the saudi government, about the russian government, about the turkish government, as well as about many american actually. we have these investigations, the thing proved most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez current predicament. well, i would still maintain a class murder video,

the revelations of 2010, 2011 that see it as a war in which the united states with gauge i think it was on appreciate it. and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course that's what he's trying. a number of people here in australia for example, we took issue with the accusation, never approved by the way that the to the day. and so miles were in some way, an orchestrated attempt by various actors to divided us. let's go a spade by name russian actors because this is how it is. i mean, but just to just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me, over the years, your instructor and some journal saw well, what about that ish? that issue is completely irrelevant to why join us on funding. so for captains of the united kingdom and the united states at the moment,

completely irrelevant. and it's really important for people to focus on the fact that it doesn't matter what else lakes is a late done or not. so that's completely irrelevant to this particular case. and that's what we've been assigned to people in australia. and i have to say a number of people who now support the san jose try to have actually made that point. i don't, we don't particularly like some of the things that you like. what he likes is done, but that's not the point. and that's what the focus has to be on. why it is that he finds himself intolerable conditions in a british person. it's much less publicized, but the see in $2900.00 try to go off to weaken leaks and challenge the legality. i'll find relations in their seat was actually dismissed that kind of there use george indicates that we did not participate in any wrong doing in obtaining the materials and therefore was within the law of publishing this

information. and that makes me question whether it be use legal system is indeed so hopelessly biased against julian aside because they were contrary examples. no one is showing here that the us, it's got the worst legal system. but when it comes to espionage and when it comes to espionage crisis, been tried in the eastern district of virginia, with jury's routinely drawn from a family. so if b r c, i, and other national security. so, i mean, this is to get a free trial that's for expense it my very that the united states, the justice system, integration, right? decisions out of the u. s. supreme court is on civil rights that you should, you should use the trial crisis here and whether now on the way the american officials and presented the d and c case was essential to try to

compromise julianna's lunches. reputation by its suppose its relationship or association with the russians. and there was a claim made, including by anonymous intelligence officers that the material, what's that to him by the russians, even though from south maintain that it was an internal league. do you think the big question of procurement of this materials have any relevance on the practicalities of of the current i city facing? i would say no, because this guys managed well before that discussion commenced when a 40 sort a song in the industry grand jury are sitting, investigating these particular allegations for many years prior to him being charged. so i think it happened. do you think it will be limited to that initial

case? and that is revelations about iraq and afghanistan because, you know, he, to some extent is being tried in the, for the public opinion. and this is, you know, what you're doing here as well. you're trying to gain a momentum for public sympathy. so again, and i think we discussed them before. is it strictly a legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion, there's not at this been shipped last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia. bobby joyce is a conservative, right. a very strong base in a strong and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later, michael griffin was one of the chief lower enforcement officers in australia that makes a lot points. and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice shy, look, we're not particularly way to, to wiki lakes,

sympathetic with lakes for such that there are fundamental principles at stake in relation to this is trying to see this and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying, this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids. this is a guy with, this is a guy who just had a, a minus struck in a u k. prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. well, due respect to the astrology and british public, if you need anything or what matters the most care is the american public opinion. and i think there has been a concerted efforts. yes. so said we can make some julian assigned with the trump campaign, even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like, choosing gets in color. i'm going to ria back at extension refer and neither of

them. now the fact that neither of them is neither of them mind power anymore and both are in a sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him? or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the, the american public and then the relevant to the american public. i think at the end of the this is a matter where a t l, of the united states could simply its prime minister scott morris could pick up the phone and get a deal irrespective of a u. s. public pretty. having said that, there's not out the work that's been done by julian's father, john shipped, and with him, i'm fairly close. his product, gabrielle shipped, and united states has shifted public opinion. there is strong public julian assigned in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter,

irrespective of public opinion in the country. i started this conversation by a referencing alex st. involved and there are many other positions. speakers whose prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west. they have a case like this where it's a play out in china, in russia or in some other countries. i think that that would have been a major western reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the, of these cases damaging to democracy? democracy as a system of government as opposed to you? i told pretty i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about ryan, which countries like the united states and started proclaimed to support liberal writers and certainly support freedom of oppression and make

a point of supporting journalists around the world. in other countries in other countries. yeah. and that's, that's, that's right in the country. but when it's come to a case involving an australian citizen getting in entangled with the us legal system. it's been a very different attitude taken. and, you know, i think that does to damage to nations because what it shows that critical now it should, i think more difficult for countries like australia or the united states to preach to the rest of the world. the universal values, which we all share when assigned time, they've got a case. and where people rightly then say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you support universal liberal values including freedom of the press. on the other hand, you're going after a person. it was done more than just by any chance to expire the truth of the operations. the united states is truth,

that involves many sounds. if not millions of people that also has to be mentioned is still just about the united states. it's about the security of the whole world. anyway, mr. barbie, we have to live here. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on the part in the me. ah. while our officers are facing an increasingly dangerous environment, we are seeing a growing debate about so called warrior cops. the term that i've heard in the

militarization of believe this is an amber vehicle we acquired through the 1033 program, very free program and the government program that call us military property that is no longer use to local law enforcement. we're building an army over here and i can't believe if people aren't seeing those agency elder conflicts here. yeah. think of terrorism here because it again a feeling that hey, you have to deal with your hard practice. well, you putting in uniform got beds. it'll probably have like money in play tricks and people mind they think they go bad. no. is the walk is out the door very bad. johns are coming. good news. yeah. job security is the world desperately need to have people join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world of politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then.

ah, tennis superstar nova jack of it is deported from australia after court upholds a controversial decision to conflict. visa that means the reigning 3 neuro champion will miss the australian open, which is now just getting underway in melbourne. and in the stories that shaped the news. this week, high stakes talks over ukraine between nato and russia. rapport with moscow accusing the allies of trying to wind by the clock to the cold war. nato understands the principle of the indivisibility of security selectively. if nato applies a policy of containment against russia, moscow will have to take a calendar, move and put all your pets and do star jumps to stay warm this winter. a major british energy company feels the heat for its.