far few weeks ago, the european parliament ordered its sufferer price, the human rights christ to the russian physician activists seen the only serving time in prison on parole. violation charges in what many in the west believes to be politically motivated than that. his daughter doughty, while accepting the prize on his behalf, raised the following question. let me read it for you. why it's so hard to read from cosivity those clos sliding for human rights. why are they still owning jails? not only all over the world, but in european geographically european countries in the 21st century. do you see this question is relevant to mr. sanchez? case against any doubt, but it's relevant to the assigned case. this has been a prosecution from day one. somebody was reminding me graciously that the former stride in prime minister john howard is certainly not a fan of a science,

but conservative sit back in 2000 and so there and he was struggling to see what crime assigns committed. so even on the rock of politics and some of the most loyal you wish allies the skepticism about this case. but in these case about human rights, because it's this case has implications for every journalist in the world. every organization which wants to hold the us to account you mentioned journalists around the world, then drilling us. i received a number of. busy pam freedom prizes or pan prizes in europe, but official western institutions, which are supposedly data cages, you human rights have never recognized him as a prisoner of questions. why do you think that is? well, i think it's starting to change a little bit, and we've seen amnesty international account, very vocal, and he's crisis times, but look a suspect that you know, there's us pressure is not f, as us pressure to say a signs in a certain latin pressure. you know, they,

we had briefly, of course, the un, sorry that the united states talking about game and rights talking about press freedom. if you're going to talk the talk, you got to walk the walk. in other words, you've got to be consistent. you can't sell on the one hand we believe in press freedom, but on the other hand, we're going to exclude julia massage. and i think the hypocrisy of the united states in this case is what really makes a lot of people really mad about the, the case you're putting here in australia where people just don't understand. and rightly what this is straight in citizen, these electron done that's wrong. now you said that you can a told me to talk without walking to walk and i think you absolutely can. i mean, i'm definitely a bias observers here, but i think that's been western policy for many years. and doing indeed did a lot to demonstrate the hypocrisy of that. now, having said that, as a lawyer,

do you think mr. sanchez bass case now in appealing to those values or rather simply a state in humanitarian grounds? well, i think that, you know, as a lawyer, when you've got a very political cation that come from miss, you've always got to read the court process shops, of course. so by now, an appeal to the united kingdom supreme court, the high schools this case, she needs a political resolution issues in a straight and citizen waste being counted down by a stride as to the nodded steps with a body of serving probably observing an effect in excess of $170.00 and so that's when it takes the pure wiggle room and it does become holly political . and there's no doubt that you try and government needs to get much more involved in this case. as doesn't you kind of go?

because they're all participants along with the risk in this process. and it also cost down quite a lot. i read somewhere that i guess maintaining police presence outside the court or an embassy in london. cost of british taxpayers somewhere in the range of $12.00 and a half a 1000000 pounds and it's still only a fraction of the overall cost. why do you think veracruz is not only american to receive another bureaucracy, this persistent and so willing to spend in their pursuit of doing a son? is it about that person or more about the principal was difficult to know. i mean, certainly the expenditure has been outrageous and that's tax and united states, and you can try to kind of this i think there's no doubt that the security state in the united states as being and the military style in the united states has been embarrassed by the revelations, which would be lakes is put out every reviews,

particularly for example, the collateral murphy or the fact that the revelation war crimes not wrong doings committed by the united states. and that's kind of standard rock. and there's no doubt that the united states is determined to have the man, and you can only explain what is otherwise a highly irrational conduct a rational conduct on the part of a government which purports to subscribe to the rule of law. i wonder if at this point, it's more of the case of political retribution, you know, he making those embarrassing revelations, or is it still about damage control as far as you can tell, do you think, julian, a science can still be in possession of some information that could be damaging the american powers that be i think that there is a combination of motivations. personally, there is a determination by the security state to get anyone to days to

ensure there's greater transparency in the way the security start. all right, and whether it's an individual, whether it's an organization, do they want to stop that person from doing anything else? i think in the assange case, it's probably at this point that is to keep going with this guys because i want to frighten into 2 other journalists around the world. and smart journalists are working out the fact that this case has really implications for them. and they colleagues, anywhere in the world. well, let's speak about those implications because he pointed out in previous is, this is really the 1st occasion that the united states has sought to use to master gaskin hours laws against a person who hasn't entered the years for your addiction. who is not an american citizen whose published information didn't adverse to the american interest, although maybe not to the interest of the global community. but what is the

significance of that? do you think that would indeed set a precedent or is it still more or less limited to mr. assange? there's not out. it's it's, it's designed to st. i very damaged person. as you rock side. this is, this is sort of extra territorial rates. you know the words, you don't have to be an added to this. you don't have to set foot in the united states. it's enough that you have revealed and published material which the united states seems to be barest embarrassing war, a country to its national security was trying to strike in journalists as written, assign st. i want to stand the consequences of this guy. so that's why it's really, i mean, it's ironic, of course to strike to racially criticize the chinese government, the new laws in hong kong. one of one aspect of which was that any journals to criticize china, even without being in china,

could be subject to the laws most trying to criticize that. this is no difference. this is the 1st time that domestic is been honest, legislation has been aimed at someone who has no connection to the u. s. years now mr. sanchez has been able to evade extradition for almost a decade. but it seems that the specter of it is now more con critize than ever. you mentioned be the ruling by a british sport by the in fact the u. k. hi port that allows for that extradition. do you think we receive? well, i think what we're likely to say play out now. what we should say plan is a political solution based simply on humanitarian grounds. you've got a person who's ration still more. she's got a real at a mom struck. you've got a person who's chipped in belmont prison, one of the toughest prisons in the united kingdom,

and they've been there for some time. and there's no resolution inside. she humanity, children that are not enough. and that's the terror of a lot of the debate in a strike. the politicians who, for example, have not a cost analysis, destroyed in government as an obligation to make sure that one of the citizens does not suffer any more than that. there is a sort of shock and so while the speak to refer the court cases loose, this is the case could go on for a number of years. and this is a man whose health as a normal swears you should in your introduction as a shadow of it for myself. the anguish to show from the family is such that i think that there are many, many people without any great, particularly interesting because you are now. so i'm sure humanities and mr. warren, i sympathized with everything. you say it's really painful to see

a human being suffering such an extent regardless of what mr. sanchez contribution to transparency in human rights is. but do you think that's enough? i'm in showing him some clemency or empathy on humanitarian grounds. would that lay the concerns that you specify a couple of minutes ago that the united states is really attempting to apply? it's, it's loss whatever it wants to, whoever it ones and whatever reason it wants. well, you know, i think that's a very good question. a real answer to it is whether or not to of the u. s. k, i was australia and united kingdom, most recently coming together with the orchestra can say to washington, we really made a resolution of this man. this is straining the relationship. we've got a lot of domestic pressure to buy a new kind in australia to say in this we need to win them and hopefully

political sense and common sense and humanity winds out. i mean, if you, it was making a point about it, it might the point over and over again because mr. has been rightly trying to avoid going the united states where there's no such unusual torture in the american prison system. now you mentioned that i could have done more to decide it's citizen in this case. and the united states has been pretty active ordering astronomy recently. and it's a rivalry with china, lots of promises, industrial and military, how the united states, washington needs a for its own geopolitical game. and do you think it's likely to make your government more subservient politically or on the country and more sort of assertive, including indication well,

just give you an example that you might recall back in about 2004. we have started citizen, david hicks, who had previously been found, i think, in afghanistan, allegedly trying to without got taken to one kind of by a couple of years. they was domestic political pressure on the prime minister on how to when he went to washington and said, i need you to tell me if i need to get that takes out of there and i need to get in and that happen. so there is a recent front stride and sign to the us. well, you know, i get a more ally than us. you know, we're extremely cost. so we need you to do this for us. now, there is nothing stopping in australia, government doing it. it's been done before by 7, which is the current government office. and we've got a formal form industry started and a number of other very distinguished australians assigned to a current promise to stop morrison farmers to merge time that he's got such

a bank of will in washington use it. it's about we have to take a short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments. ha, ah. who's driven by trainer shaped by interest in there's things we dare to ask in a

a. mm hm. mm. welcome back to wells apartments. frank lawrence in australian lawyer and an advisor to julian sanchez is trailyn campaign. mr. barnes, before the break we were talking about how this a long battle for non extradition has cost a lot in terms of mental and physical how it's taken many years of his life. do you think in high side it was worth it? what it was? absolutely was and some of the system, the human rights law area. this was a cash way, legitimately sure, assault riley, sort of asylum in the view of many of us because he would've been taught in united

states. and it has, of course, been worth it in the sense that he has done as to everyone's attention to the fact that the united states is committed to more when a church. so to do so. and the other issue i think, which is fundamentally important is that julia, julia such remind for many people around the world, i figure figure in the sense that someone committed to transparency committed to ensuring that the public knows the truth. and you know, since it's been with, i mean, the toll has been terrible and they need to be something done urgently to ensure that you mentioned the torture that face. and it was still face in being in an american prison. but essentially, you know, not towards your has been visited upon him already and staying in confinement for a day that, you know, it's hard for anyone. and sometimes, you know, it's

a philosophical question, but it makes you wonder whether perhaps, you know, submitting to or using to all those years. and all those dangers of the american imprisonment would have left you with, with more house or more ability to, you know, serve his cost because, nelson mandela, after all, you know, stayed in prison for quite some time. but he's been influential in that now to narrow it down. what do you think the wars that could happen to mr. assange? if indeed the extradition request is granted and implemented. we could die. and i'm not, i'm not exaggerating, that they could die. certainly whether he stays in the u. k. prison system. but secondly, if he goes us amnesty international, my point and i would like to sign that they assurances given by lawyers acting from us in the appeals court should be triggered very cautiously.

if, if i can seriously, because even if we accept that assurances by the united states government that he would get proper health care that wouldn't be tortured, even if we accept for much that they were in fact the instructions from washington to east giles. what goes on the ground person says we all know is very, very different and guarantees. you know, i've seen some meetings. the risk for mr. sanchez is his life, and that's not a place that any to just should be in anywhere in the world. we know it happens in the course, but it shouldn't be particularly shouldn't be happening when you've got a supposedly rule of law driven prices, which of course, it's not mr. barnes. it's well known. the julian expansion of wiccan, pagan gods, themselves to be cross hairs of many powerful actors. not only america, but also international. they published embarrassing information about the saudi

government, about the russian government and the turkish government, as well as about many american actors. we should be the investigation, the think proved most damaging or perhaps most consequential to mr. sanchez. current predicament. well, i would still mind chime a class murder video, the revelations of 2010, 2011 that see it as a war veterans united states with gauge. i don't, i think it was. i'm pretty sure i did. and i think everything else falls away when you look at that. and of course that's what i'm trying. only a number of people here in australia, for example, we took issue with they the accusation never proven by the way that the to the day and see miles were in some way and straight to the chamber by various actors to divide us. let's go speed by name russian actors because this is how it is.

i mean, but just to, just to put that in context, some people of course, and i've said to me, over the years here in australia room, some journalists, well, what about that ish? that issue is completely irrelevant to why join the funds in sober captives of the united kingdom and the united states just a moment completely around and it's really important for people to focus on that fact that it doesn't matter. what else will be lakes is alleged will done or not? that's completely irrelevant to this particular catch send. that's what we've been signed the people in a started and i have to cite a number of people who now supported the sergeant strike. they have actually made that point. we don't particularly like some of the things that he likes, what he likes has done, but that's not the point. and that's right, the focus has to be on why of each that he finds himself in intolerable conditions

in a breach. first, it's much less publicized by dmc in $2900.00 tried to go off to a we can leaks and challenge the delay gallon relations and their soup was actually dismissed with their use charge indicates that we did not participate in any role doing, obtaining the materials and therefore what within the law of publishing this information and that makes me question whether it be your legal system is in deep so hopelessly biased against julian assigned because there were contrary examples. no one is showing here that the us just got the worst legal system in bash when it comes to espionage cuts. and when it comes to espionage case, it's been tried in the eastern district of virginia, with jury's routinely drawn from the families of f. b. i, c, i, and other national security staff members. it is possible to get

a freight truck. that's what it might be that they're across the united states, the justice system, integration, right? decisions out of the u. s. supreme court of these on civil rights that you should, you should use the trial process here and whether now on the way the american officials and presented the d and c case was essential to try to compromise julianna's non just reputation by its suppose in relationship or association with the russians, and there was a claim made, including by anonymous intelligence officers and this material. what's that to him by the russians, even though south maintain that it was an internal league? do you think the big question of procurement of this materials has any relevance on the practicalities of the case of the current i city facing? i would say no,

because this guys managed well before that discussion commenced. when a 40 sort, a song in the industry grand jury are sitting, investigating these particular allegations for many project him being charged. so i think it happened. do you think it will be limited to that initial case? and that is revelations about iraq and afghanistan because, you know, he, to some extent is being tried in the, for the public opinion. and this is, you know, what you're doing here as well. you're trying to gain a momentum for public sympathy. so again, and i think we discussed that before. is it strictly a legal matter still, or is it more about, you know, how people feel about it? well, i think it's, i think it's, but it's, as i said earlier, but just in terms of public opinion,

there's not at this point in shift. last week we had the deputy prime minister of australia. bobby joyce's a conservative right. a very strong base in a straight and pressed supporting assad. we had 2 days later, michael griffin was one of the chief lower enforcement officers in us. try to make sure look points and the point they, mikey was a very valid chord. dice shy, look, we're not particularly way to, to wiki lakes, sympathetic with lakes for such that there are fundamental principles at stake in relation to this is trying to see this and that's and that's true. and that's what this case is about. so i think we're saying people now say, look, there are important principles, but you are also getting people saying, this just humanitarian issue here. this is a guy with young kids. this is a guy with. this is a guy who just had a, a minus struck in a u k. prison. imagine what it would be like if you go to the united states. let's not let that happen. we do respect to the strolling and british public if you need

anything or what matters the most care is the american public opinion. and i think there has been a concerted efforts you associate with links and julie and assigned with the trump campaign, even though he's himself on record saying that choosing between hillary clinton and donald trump was like choosing gets in color. i'm going to ria, back in 16. she said that you want to refer and neither of them. now, the fact that neither of them is neither of them mind power anymore and both aren't and it's sort of political obscurity. do you think that may help him, or is it also irrelevant at this point? you know, just come back to something you said about the, the american public and then relevant to the american public. i think at the end of the this is a matter where a t l, of the united states could simply its prime minister scott morris could pick up the

phone and get a deal irrespective of a u. s. public. having said that, there's not work that's been done by julian's father, don't ship them with m. i'm fairly closely product gabrielle shipped and united states has shifted public opinion. there is strong public julian assange in the united states. but i do think at the end of the day, this is about to leaders of countries coming together to resolve this matter, irrespective of public opinion in the country. i started this conversation by referencing alex st. volunteer. there are many other position speakers who, prosecution of persecution is followed closely in the west. they have a case like this where it's a play out in china, in russia or in some other countries. i think that that would have been a major western reaction, but not here. do you think the handling of the,

of this case is damaging to democracy and democracy address system of governance as opposed to a told, prosy? i think it's damaging in this sense that people are rightly cynical about ryan, which countries like the united states and started proclaimed to support liberal writers and certainly support freedom of oppression and make a point of supporting journalists around the world in other countries. in other countries. yeah, and that's, that's, that's right. in the country when it's come to a case involving an australian citizen getting in entangled with the us legal system. it's been a very different attitude taken. and, you know, i think that does to damage to nations because what it shows that critical now it should, i think more difficult for countries like australia in the united states to print to the rest of the world. the universal values,

which we all share when assigned time, they've got a case worker such and where people rightly didn't say, well, you know, on the one hand you say you support universal liberal values including freedom of the press. on the other hand, you're going after a person. it was done more than just by any chance to expire the truth of the operations. the united states is a truth that involves many sounds. if not, millions of people that also has to be mentioned is still just about the united states. it's about the security of the whole world. anyway, mr. barbie, we have to live here. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on the part in the

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yes ma'am. oh, oh, risky that will you at least the typical there's only 9 but already a university student that away and flash a new modest appointment. let's see. yep. you got the glass doors to deal with them. he did have a meeting with him so that he may come can only coast he with now bush right, new prescription level. you're special. i want to, yeah, my what i said the 1st way and of course thinking what certified that particular to him was in human fitness. i'm the leader with sue lose with his teacher was reason is

balise. we'll come with 2 and a superstar novi jock of it is to pull to form us trailer after called the upholds a controversial decision to conflict. visa, that means the raining 3 in a row champion will misty australian open. and in the stories the shapes, the weak, high stakes talks over ukraine between russia, nato wrap up with moscow accusing alliance of trying to wind like the plot to the cold war. nato understands the principle of the indivisibility of security selectively. if nato applies a policy of containment against russia, moscow will have to take a calendar, move on to cut your pets and do star jobs to stay warm this winter. a major british energy company feels the heat force advice while fuel costs rocket. i think they've completely lost the floor on that. i have to wait on,

she paid for the free.