so yes, as you say, they have been an extreme profits from the been limited pharmaceuticals and, and others have been part of that. and those who have profited and i would argue that it is not in their benefits, even in their benefit, to, to prolong this because we need to, to have a better balance and then more as society that can redress itself foster. so it's, it's also known for by everyone that if we take longer and recovering from new various can arise and it will impact everyone. so, making so much profit of something that is and they make that is affecting everyone is at this moment in, well, the, an acceptable and not understandable because it doesn't even work in the benefit of those who are making the profit. the thoughts of gabriella boucher, executive director of ox from international gabriella. thank you very much for your time and your thoughts today. thank you. love is where we leave the news update for

now. i'll be back at the top with more of the story, shaping your world today. ah ah ah, ah. hello and welcome to crossed out. were all things are considered. i'm funeral about their immediate reports, us intelligence warns of a rush and false flag operation to provoke an invasion of ukraine to those of us who are skeptical this sure sounds like still another weapons of mass destruction. conspiracy theory also, how bad could things get?

ah to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guest. maxine shook off, he's director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and we also have dmitri barbara, she is a political analyst and editor, it interests me, internet media project for a gentleman crossed up rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciated. i was going to maxime, 1st of max, you know, in love my introduction here. i'd like to read some of the words from the national security advisor, jake sullivan. he said, russia is laying the groundwork to have the option of fabricating a pretext for an invasion, including to sabotage activities and information operations by accusing by accusing ukraine of preparing an imminent attack against russian forces in eastern ukraine. how do you replied that? because my introduction, i also mentioned weapons of mass destruction, 2003 go ahead met. right. well, as were remember,

president fulton promised to quote unquote, military technical response. should the nature we know fail to address the proposals unsecured guarantees that the ration delegation put forward in geneva. and i think there's a lot of focus on the military component in that phrase, in the western media. but because there is a lot of uncertainty of what exactly this military technical response may be. there, all kinds of things in this discourse, you know, one day they, they, they're, they're talking a lot about the quote unquote divisions, ukraine before that as well. remember a couple days before there was a lot of hype over russia deployments in latin america. so i think that's, it suggests that the, the u. s. side is not entirely clear of the russian intentions. and there all kinds of ways to pump up the domestic discourse of the russia threats and to show that

the administration is actually aware of what actually is going on. and what exactly the russians are letting victoria newland was talking the other day about the 1800 scenarios that the us intelligence play that's, that's like 800 scenarios is even hard to memorize. so i think that's, that's quite telling us the kind of moods in the, in the see at this moment. but that sad, i should say the situation is very serious. and then indeed, precarious, and hope we don't end up in the cuban missile crisis. 2.0, and that is exactly the analogy i've been using for weeks right now on this program . you know, gamer, 18th and heresy. i mean it, what was the last week of, of the 3 meetings? you know, us rush, rushing the nato russia with the always the, and, you know, and now they're looking at 18 different scenarios. i mean, what are ways to time that was, and it sounds like a level of paranoia,

in my opinion, because where the russian side is that, you know, there is no, no, no real meaningful negotiations, no mutual understanding. then there's going to be a military technical component to this. we already told you this to happen. i mean, why did anybody be surprised? go ahead demon. well, i think the boys are still useful because let me remind you, while the 1st time since 2014, we weren't talking series, you know, there wasn't real serious stuff. i'm sorry, i have to disagree with you. i mean, what did they come out from? it ok me, this is the strategy when we have more meetings. well we've been having meetings for 30 years and then we'll continue. it's doubled in 5 years and we should continue talking. i'm sorry my friend, but convince me i'm wrong. well, unfortunately, the west did not accept the rational proposals, even though that the minimum,

the minimum for credit that sick your situation in europe. i mean, not only american, we have seen the grain american, we styles important as the borders government. this is welcome in american nuclear weapons and pull down and stuff where we are quite willing to have, you know, it's still bad. we are not members of nato 987 when the found in that relationship in russia and nato will sign. we didn't sign it so we will welcome to american nuclear weapons. so basically the rest of the proposals, this is not a dream, it's, it's the minimum and ok americans are not accepting the nature is not accepting it, but at least there may be some building measures. there may be some progress on short and intermediate break new styles and, and the response. but i agree that basically the american side, everything to what these negotiations mind you,

on the eve of negotiations mister blinking made and i rush and ram. so, you know, you progress saw speech, use brush over them. this is the way you ruined negotiations. your basically effects the person that you are talking to. this is why deep and that's where you're appeal shields and the uniforms on national costumes. you know, to create the distance between the person you're talking to and the subject, you know, we're not talking who has human rights. we're talking about security, okay. by the way, mister burrell, you know, that kind of european diplomacy in system that participate, but want to talk about human rights and you can talk about it for the next 200 years. you know, this is exactly what i was afraid of. but talking about what the marks maxon arrays very examine it. you know, there are certain overnight states about russians, military technical response. well,

it's nature old because let me remind you of the ration needed to budget is 14 times smaller than it's 4. i'm smaller than that combined needed to budget that all the european allies of this is the data from stop only for peace research. so if you have a force which is 18 times smaller than the other one, what can you count on unpredictability ambiguity? and this is the only way, you know, this is basically the reason why we have increase presidential policy in russia in the last 20 years for the same reason why roosevelt of late the next. do you mom the right for the president, for immediate decisions. you know, without waiting for the congress is confirmed security. so this is still days war or decided to mean it's a big down on that security match because it is about security. but the way the

western media and blink and speech was just on becoming of a secretary of state. i mean it, was it just on believable. but i mean, the way it's, it's constantly being framed and victoria a new one and old hand it ukraine for the wrong reasons. i would like to point out is there the, there are different narratives, the nato and the head of nato. the united states wants to constantly focus on ukraine, a member that is a country that's not even a member of nato here, and russia with its proposal to nato entity, united states were sent out in december. this is about pan european security. the americans just don't simply want to talk about that, but all they want to talk about is ukraine. a country that is not a member of nato. go ahead. well, you know, the, if you things i'd like to mention in this regard, one, if i were to use a sports analogy in the talks in geneva, i would say that the talks produced, you know, like a and football or soccer is because in the u. s. you, you to try to,

to, to produce some free zones into which you can pass and from which you can score. so i think the talks rebuild that there are some free zones that the, the, the western side, the americans are tried to create. but these are not the results from which you can score from which you can actually produce results in that sense. you know, the proposal was let's discuss, you know, the things such as the number of forces, you know, they, the number of military exercises. all of this is important. but at this point, as you pointed out, we've been talking about that for 30 years. and it's not exactly the thing that the russian side once the concrete proposal on the russian side was the during the madrid summit, which is to take place in june 2020 to the nato. if it was serious about security with russia, was supposed to roll out the statement that would denounce the book or a statement of 2008, saying that quote unquote, georgia in ukraine will one day become members of nato at the time. indeed it was,

it becomes a kind of consensus were a compromise rather between the george w bush administration that wanted to print and georgia in nature and france and germany that didn't want you for those countries in nato. but it created so much ambiguity in terms of what the western congress could do in ukraine, in georgia, in terms of, you know, threatening russia security that moscow when ballistic. i'm not sure if that's the right metaphor to use in this sense. but we're good to be, we'll be right. that's, that's, that's one thing. and right now the russians are demanding concrete, you know, commitments, if not legal commitments that you know, that would really dispel the 1st this uncertainty that's, that's one thing. the other thing is obviously the, the u. s. does not see russia as a pure power except for strategic stability and now perhaps cyber domains. and that is exactly the, the, the point that moscow is trying to convey that you can,

we can have any meaningful progress on these areas. because these are areas important to you, but also to us. but we need to, you know, make sure that you address our security guarantees the way we try to address your security guarantee. so in that sense, in all these discussions over rational potential, military deployments in the brain or around ukraine or even latin america, i would personally look at it as a, a rush of way to return real bullets equal realism into the thinking of the american policy making because over here so far is just political statements, including the ones made by secretary clinton. but the 2nd thing is try to kind of move geopolitical frontier closer to the united states. so it's felt more like a real threat. because right now, it doesn't feel like a real threat for the united states, which grades and all kinds of maneuvers around brain that the bother rushing in. it

seems to me, given the address and the lack of seriousness on the part of nato and its member countries. is that there provoking russia? it's almost kind of a game. it's a bluff, it's a game of chicken. and, and as we've always pointed out on this program, here is that if there isn't going to be a straightforward response to the proposal, the rest of may, they will have to take matters into their own hands. no one else is going to protect brushing sovereignty except for the russian steamer. well, i think this is the right way to view the situation and picking up on what my team has just said. it was natal that did the predictability and then be yours in 2008. you know, when at the summit of natal they promised to take your brain and ga internet. at some point. this is a big you, this is predicted the. so russia is trying to reform with less unpredictability. for the reason that i just mentioned, you know, was so much weaker. however,

we have certain special kinds of weapons which, which make it possible for us to dissuade the wife from a taking and picking up on what you said at the beginning of all the stations. that's all reminds me of or mark destruction about with saddam saying, because they're, they're married later. they are switching the conversation around track. you know, the real problem is nato expansion to rain or just a moment to bring back thought we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break book, continue our discussion and some real mistake with our tea. ah ah oh,

the wrong one. i just don't hold any world yet to shape out. disdain becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds of horn, we choose to look for common ground. ah

ah welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. this is the home and just to remind you were discussing some real news. ah okay, let's go back to dina. here in moscow you may, you were litigating on a point, i want you to finish it off. go ahead. yes. so the conversation is switched to the wrong track, instead of talking about security and the possibility of why month all american and biggest weapons in your grade. and that may remind you that your brain is as far as just by one or more school at one point. you know, so this is really dangerous because rash will have to switch to the nuclear auction immediately in case of our, you know, the engine is, does he want us away from you?

all right, so that's which of the conversation is going to invade you. this is the same as in 2003. the real problem was when call will do that. back to rock. there's western media switched it to east side are math, you know, where does he find his weapons of mass destruction when it's going to use them? it all cracked up to be it just if you why, but no one was held responsible. so why not now? you know, and then the, i think those mobile the, and the american press, the european press on a stone, you know, you, you are service. there is some of the name, the old black, you know, mr. flack. jonathan full flag. he is quoted on europe to prepare for a real war with. ready russia, with the huge casual way, not only dis strikes, probably that divisions, you know, glide in on the job waste in europe and all of that for the well,

you great. where understand it's not training for a bunch of guys, you know, run your brain who came to power bar by while and means the steel, you know, will get to be the real beneficiary. as all from there you will be sure. is panama manian or shaws there? yeah. these guys are all well you know they, you know, they start off democracy. oh my god, people still believe this after all this it messing with. it's really in play in my mind, the lease is then a symmetrical response to this because as demon is pointed out, western so called diplomats because they're not very diplomatic anymore. and of course the media, they focus on this mean of invasion. of course, russia has no intention of invading ukraine would be pointless. however, if it would be determined, and this is my opinion in my opinion, only if it is determined that there are a weapon systems, for example,

that would create an existential threat to russia. security rep. russia has already gone through the motions of meeting all the significant stakeholders. and if they didn't want to listen, russia, security comes 1st for russia, and rushes will take action, some military chemical reaction reaction to what could be deemed as a potential offensive missile system. for example, and it will be dealt with and then nato has this quandary. i mean, do we go to war over this missile system? they didn't actually invade the country. i mean, what they're doing, they goes putting everything in. i mean, this is like one big bet, and it's going to play out very, very badly, but not that it's going to have well, for russia either your thoughts. right? well, i think the, what's, what we're seeing now is a 3rd attempt throughout the presidency to negotiate this pen

european security infrastructure. the 1st attempt was in 2007 during the wouldn't make a speech where he was talking about the dangers of the unit poor world and draw and clearly rushes. ledger red lines on ukraine in georgia, and that speech was actually seen as rushes own revenge just emissions. and what happens at the end of the day, year after soccer really adventurous strike south of santia and the war. and charles, the said here, the 2nd call for serious discussion about the european security was in 2012 improvements article about russia security guarantees. and that was also in other turbulent environment. after the arab spring, they pull up the duffy nature's intervention and libya. nobody listened to that either what, what was saw a year and a half after it was the crisis in your train in the crimea spring as they came to

call it. now this is the 3rd attempt to do to, to draw a clear line and say, look, there are security guarantees. there are important there security concerns that are very important to us of a lot more important to us than it is to you. ah, let's, let's, let's, let's get serious about that. and so far there hasn't been a very serious attempt. partly because nature in the us are, are short of their own dominance and, and, and, and on the buttons. which in a way, i think is dangerous because it in bold boots, some of the solo. so both those leaders in the pacific countries to act in a way that presents challenges for western decision making as much as for russian decision making. so i think all of the russian military deployments over ukraine are not about intervening into your brain because worse or actual, hard to achieve some political goals. there are no political goals in ukraine that russia could deal with proved military force. there are other ways to achieve them,

but they are exactly in my opinion, to a compelled, the west to serious talks and be to deter ukraine from attacking numbers. because the number of offences and on bus up increased over the past several weeks, including because of the western supports and rushes view. well hopefully we'll, we'll see more diplomatic way out of this. tell me in all the background of this last week's meetings, i would say pointless meetings, but meetings, none the less we have the events going on in context on and that, that with no coincidence whatsoever. i mean, it's interesting there. again, there's another, it's a symmetrical. russia doesn't like the, the behavior and rhetoric of the regime in care, but it has no intention of trying to change it. but then as we were going up to these meetings, and during these meetings, we had what appears to be

a 4th regime change and conflicts which failed here. so you have, you know, russia and the military block a very much it off as an opposite principles and goals here because back theme is absolutely right. i mean, what with the political goal for russia is security and have secure borders. but the, the aim of nato is gemini, ema, wow, it's just amazing. what happened to the west, the reaction to start to rush. and actually alex, dont let me just go, you know, the headline or back. not only these article in the look when you know the french medicine and declared war on europe and then subtitle ukraine bemrose cause i will stop. well, the whole point was that c s your collective security organization, because there was a real quick because i found several 100 people died. dispatch the force of 2500

ma'am just to help because up to god, you know, the government buildings which was badly damaged by the way, during that disturbance. and the west. this is the patient. this is russia, you know, restoring its following kind of stuff and then because the president said in a week, i want the stoops out in well days. thank you. in 2 days that we're going to start, so now i'll better trooper, sorry, joining. and the worst is not there when the board judge and you know, this is the same sort as with the sort. but you know, if you read the west press before it was all about homosexual as leads what terrible faith is going to await them. and so, you know, they're all going to be rounded up and then the rest, the nothing happened to them and no one was apologized. the truth is, russia is not inexpensive. you power, not only rational people is peaceful. the rational lead does not 13 by hand with

area 3, where quite a bit with that, with what west, the narrative is that booty and wants to restore the soviet union, i read condo. so i to go about that since since january 1st this year. and people just don't see the facts, you know, we, what we want is not necessarily allies. we just don't want or style regimes around the regime and or style and steal. we don't want to do the reveal change, the american wait, we expect ukrainians to be given a chance to to, to replace these regimes peacefully. and i'm not sure the you don't either, but you got this job because after my done look, the whole block is structure suddenly change. you know, the whole record suddenly change when these peaceful protest policemen, while they enter the rather the bottom of fatherly, all the different just started to speak differently. no wonder. so, policeman appealed. and the worst s,

this is the more christian. this is the moment when your brain became lost. maxine, where does this, where are we going with all of this? because i suppose with depresses me the most is the lack of serious, but i mean, like it has already been brought up here when the russians come to your house, they've been and they never leave. i mean, what a projection, i mean, there's so many countries around the banking group go and they never go home and the rush. i mean, it was only a matter of days. the russian troops were thanked and they went back to their barracks, back in russian rest has no intention of occupying conflicts down or any other country. ok, i mean, and it also showed resolve. and i think my opinion, that was one of the reasons or whatever was whatever operation was being conducted against causing look more at how russia would react. russia did react and it did quite forcefully. so again, where is this all going? how does this n? well,

i think what have what we saw in cars. it's on the western reaction to that was a subconscious desire to see russia get stuck there beyond what, what the demon just was talking about the, you know, what kinds of reactions, i think the, the bottom line was there will hopefully russians will get distracted. and because it was happening in the run up to the geneva talks, the expectation was that the information kind of ambience around that would be really bad for, for, for moscow. you know, so the russians walk in the stocks, but then even even more kind of damage to reputation and stuff. and what happens within 2 days, russia demonstrated very weak and soft results in and fixing the situation. and you know, in and out that ultimately played out well for, for moscow, you know, raise the profile of c, a. c, o reinforces reputation as the only provider of strict security instability in or asia so far. and also the power that is able to operate

equally well on both fronts and it's quote unquote, near border that i think mixed some expectations and make some fillings in the west obviously. so i think so far at this moment, russia has a stronger negotiation position. and is speaking from this kind of real real rate, realism point of view when it comes to, you know, assessment, security and priorities. hopefully this would be enough for the west. is that in this conflict we haven't like the logical side. we have a pragmatic side and they can't talk to each other. they can't understand the right gentleman, that's all the time we have. want to take my guest here in moscow, and i want to think our viewers are watching us here at our. see you next time. remember? the the, ah. oh, is your media

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ah. cove, it protest, wrapped in your countries ranch, it up new restrictions making the lives of vaccine hasn't been people ever more complicated. scientists predict me crohn will rapidly become the dominant strain of covert globally. this year. the world health organization tells us medics. we'll get a little relief. the tweaks is equivalent to increase the number of nations around the world as we see on becoming a dominant area. so the sheer number of fractions will bring a more people to hospitals. and in france, a presidential candidates find thousands of euro for.