i snapped the amazon empire has extended its grip on the wall to wall, like a duck, and quacks like a dog dog. also, amazon looks like monopoly trades like a monopoly makes money like monopoly behaves like monopoly. amazon essentially controls the market place. it's not really a market, it's a private arena, a wild where a single company controls the distribution of all day. the products and the infrastructure of our economy is loose. the woo, according to amazon, ah, ah, hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered on peter lavelle. it

was not a show down, but rather an exercise in placing markers. the russia us talks in geneva settled basically nothing. however, the biden administration can no longer say it does not understand russia's position on pan european security. the ball is in washington's court. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess. well, in these, in oslo, he is the professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book, great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and in budapest we have george, samuel eli is a podcast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals, or a gentleman. crosstalk rules in effect, that means you can jump in any time you want, and i always appreciate it. okay, let's go to glen 1st. glen, you know, we, we've had about 2 weeks of meetings. i different formats,

essentially on the same topic, at least from the russian perspective, and trying to get nato on the same page to talk about pan european security. i watch the presser is law, and blinking, blinking is moved a little bit in the right direction, but not very far in my opinion. like as i said in my introduction, basically nothing has been done. but i think it's also fair to say that washington can't say it doesn't know what it wants is they love to say your assessment. go ahead. no, i agree. and i think it the way the meeting began kind of demonstrated, well how far apart they were and not even discussing the same thing. because when i most go met with the washington, they the main discussion. well, the americans came prepared to speak about ukraine and effectively for the russians . they said no, well, the crane is a symptom of a broader problem. we've had for us 30 years, which is there is no pan european security system and there are no on european security agreements anymore. that works. so. so they want to highlight this

principle, the, well, the main main tension, which is, you know, we have 2 different principles in europe. the russians are saying the foundations of pioneer p and security has to be one that does not expand the security at the expense on the other. so invisible security and the american say no, no european security is based on the right of natal to expand. and you know, it's russian fringes on this and this is an attack on a democracy and freedom and you know, this is the, the, the usual so, so, so, so this is kind of where, where, where to start off and took a while to even move away from simply talking about russian troops on russian soil in, in there, in approximately, on the ukrainian borders to actually discuss european security agreements. and again, that it hasn't been successful because there are no, that's no interest in making any compromises or, you know, attempting to meet anywhere in the middle. or, you know, at least this stuff, some understanding of what bothers such. but again, so far, the american,

some limited the response to stay think to looking for ways of punishing russia and forcing it. they're told effectively. and this is why the last meeting between london and lincoln was a little bit awkward because, you know, lincoln obviously came prepared to say, here we are, we're united, west, we're not going to give you anything. now you do us, we're told otherwise. you know, we're going to all the sanction oldest punishment. however, he showed up with realizing that the continental european settlers are not with them on this one. the british might be, but the europeans are not. and so it didn't really have that much to, to present. and this is why they don't know what to do now, because again, this was the whole approach of the unit player. we could ignore russia because all the power was in the west. but now of course, the problem is russia is not afraid of any sanction, more diversified. it has the military advantage along its own borders. it's effectively saying this and we have security concerns. if those are not respected,

we have to act on them. let's have proper agreements where both securities are taken into account and, you know, slow steady vassily. lincoln's kind of realizing that they can dictate what the outcome will be here. so they have to find some compromise. and this is a painful decision americans are in because they've been able to, you know, simply dictate a demand, unilateral concessions for 30 years. and you know, it's coming to an end. so it doesn't surprise me that this is a difficult pill to swallow for washington. yeah, george, i'm calling this program. i'm lincoln's cons blake, because that's exactly what it was. a i want to reiterate a point that the glen make. i think it's very important for our audience because of the very distorted narrative that's going on right now. rush, you want to have good relations with its neighbor ukraine. it doesn't want it to be a hostile country, and most importantly, it doesn't want nato in ukraine. it's not about ukraine. it's all about nato expansion. and it is so irritating and makes all our hair out. is that in this very

stilted narrative that is being presented to publix around the world. go ahead, jordan, that's exactly right. and that's why it's hard to see whether any real compromise is possible. so over the weekend, we had the a forum of this issue, this extraordinary statement, saying that they have a lot to over on the part of the russians to overthrow the government the here. and to put in that people in place. and, you know, that's, that's it. and then they believe the americans immediately seen. yeah, yeah, we agree that's our finding to so you know, they, they're now not only insisting that it's all about ukraine, not about a russian security concerns about building a security architecture in europe. it is all. ringback about the great end of the

any moment russia will invade or a, you know, organize a coo and install some obscure person in charge in here. so, and then even last week, we had the day before, lincoln would love wrong. the state department issue these 2 extraordinarily vituperative statements about russian law isn't dis, information. so this is really the problem that the, as far as the western by western really, i mean the u. s. and the u. k. r ministers are concerned that it is all about russia trying to evade threaten us take over. busy ukraine is, are they pretend not to understand what russia is talking about? and i think it does come to

a very dangerous situation because i think we're, we're heading to with a crisis during the beijing olympics. if a government care tries to state some kind of a provocative incident and which might trigger a russian intervention that bad. i mean, russian always is a russians, obviously not want anything like that. but it's, it's a possibility. and given the way the british and americans are presented it, oh wow, that's it. that's what we were saying. no rush just in the business of the invading you. great. you know, glen and i'm glad to george brought up those 2 state department reports on just information this information, whatever it was, because it seems to me that the state department actually find the corral nato members because they see that it's great. ok, we had last week, we had the u. k,

a sending weapons to ukraine and they avoided german airspeed. the germans don't want to say that they think this is provocative here. and then we have, we have president crone had the press of the rotating you presidency. and you know, he's come out with a statement about respecting security of all countries and very nervous about publications. it seems to me that state department is, is trying to, it's spending actually more time trying to keep nato in line that, and he is actually having a dialogue with russia because that's a dialogue that's a dialogue the deaf and dumb. lin. yeah. well, that was the arguments coming out of britain as well that when they were making the argument that we shouldn't, you know, binding to the russian narrative, they were specifically referring to the europeans that they're starting to repeat the russian propaganda. what about, again, propaganda or misuse? we're doing all this with propaganda. you have been framing of any conflict then

a very common technique, for example, use their simple binary framing. and this is what need to propaganda is, which is suggesting the only solutions to this is either we have an expansion, or we have a rush and serve influence in your brain. and this and you know, so we have to choose, these are 2, this is how can this work? and this is and it's so ridiculous which is why a lot of this discussions have been very dishonest because most of the comprise of slogans aim towards an uninformed public rather than making any common sense. i mean, surely the, our 3rd option here ross is not that doesn't have the capabilities or intention to exclude exclusive influence in ukraine. it but, but these are the only options either military lines towards russian borders or russia takes over your grant. surely the whole point of security agreement is to find this middle points. for example, a neutral ukraine, which rush, it's always been happy with. but again, it's this very, this honest statement, same as the secretary general nato is talking about. he was saying,

russia doesn't have any legitimate reasons to be afraid of nato because we were defensive alliance. i mean, really, is that i remember that in 1900 kissing it was saying, well, we can't say that made was defensive anymore to the russians. now that the bombing the search, and also later going after the libyans, i mean this, you can try to justify the source in any way. you want this illegals for by illegal or by the way, but they're not defensive. so, so just call the defensive alliance. so it doesn't make any sense. also also the only recently the senior official to the bomb administration article. i think her name is argued that russia us would actually go to war against russia, not just over ukraine, but, you know, take by crimea, push russia out of said yeah. so you can have it both ways. you can't say the brush in the future can be no threat to rush on at the same time. are you that are, are you that we should use force against them? also this idea that brush should have no. so this is also, you know,

we know we're getting us if it makes any sense. i mean, different middle is going to monopolize and security in europe that and the biggest country and you should not have any say over it. i mean, this is an absurd statement. obviously, russia will have, you know, either has it within institutions or it will have to rely on its own, on the military, in order to uphold that, you know, which is now expressed as a red line. so nothing makes any sense. and the last one is nato secretary general, explicitly saying naval does not discriminate against new and old members. well, this was the whole point of the navy, russia founding act of 1997. this very explicit promise commit is not putting middle to permit troops in eastern europe. and now they're saying, no, no, this goes against our principal. well, you can put both ways. you can find an agreement, you know, on tenure, p security, one co troops there. and then say, well this goes against our principal so we can follow the agreement with find other . so it's very, it's very strange discussions,

and i think it's good to get for us to get some of this out in the front because it, to me, it doesn't make any sense in any sense, in a church, in a united option reflected that, you know, essentially natal is just a propaganda machine. ok. that because that's what it invest a lot of money and, and is going is rightly pointed out. it just creates all these false bind aries ok . and it, in my mind that's intentional because they have no intention of recognizing rushes national security interest 20 think is before we go to the break charge yet pointed out, i mean, they are an expansionist, which means that by definition they are not offensive. and defensive means you stay in place and defend what you have now they have been expanding and they insist on their right to continue to expand. and when they hear, it says quite explicitly in that 997 agreement, which is no

a come to the local pack. and then when the russians point this out to them, hey we, you know, we have an unconditional right to do whatever we want to know that you're going to, we're breaking up a real estate. oh, a

there may, may, we should all be mayor. may, we should all be angry because of what's going on, right? i can't understand united states history and the role that slavery place is already a very formal institution. by the time united states became a nation, it actually the find the nation, the rise of capitalism clearly on the backs of flight and the slave down. if you had investigated lynchings, any great extent you can't believe in the country. and country still stands in brick. i'm from the south. everybody know know what they're saying. to some extent, i would argue that we're still fighting the civil war and the south is winning ah,

welcome back. across the dock were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing real news ah okay, was returned to georgia. i don't want to talk about the presser and it wasn't jointly held decay in geneva, which, you know, sized something. and i thought it was very interesting that you know, the russia says in the u. s. will respond to russia's written proposals next week. that's how the, the russians interpreted. and here. okay, robin blink. and they were heading to different delegations, and it was shortly after they were talking, but blanking. he told the press corps something very different from that bad memory or dis, will willful. i'm not understanding. he said the u. s. a whole hoped to share it's concerns and ideas in more detail in writing next week. those are

2 very different things. these 2 men just had spoken to each other. and it doesn't say any kind of explicit reaction to, to written documents that the russians proposed to the united states and nato separately. and before, as i and my question here, george, again, we have out of washing and saying that they want to have this as secret diplomacy. russia is committed in this process to public diplomacy docs. yes. yeah. and i think that's a very good point. now, i do not think that the americans are going to respond to the russian document. i think that to the extent that they will present a written response, i think it will be a familiar listen. the of complaints about the. busy crimea no the, the don't last the screen now me a very in our elections breaks and whatever it is, just going to be the usual

a complaint. i do not think that they tend to address any of these issues because they don't acknowledge the legitimacy of these issues. and that is why the situation is dangerous. because i think the russians will feel that the only way that our concerns will be addressed. and that the seriousness with which we're coming to this will be addressed is if you know, in the event of some kind of military action, because otherwise they're just going to keep talking about, you know, pointless, things like well on control. transparency, no mutual confidence building measures with military exercises. so they've been talking about decades. but this isn't really what the russians are also. and really what has to say that the framework of some kind of a security agreement shouldn't be that hard to find. just no nato expansion in rich,

russia also commits not to bring in any case in the security treaty organization. ok, so for everyone else, neutrality and there's something wrong when you try to know if you're, if you're a domestic of it just means that you're not joining any of military lines. i mean, we used to have, during the cold war, the normal line movement, a gigantic movement of states that were very happy, isn't to say, we're not a military alliance. and so there's nothing wrong with it. but, you know, nato is simply absolutely refusing to acknowledge this, and i think that that's kind of why who goes into this mess because they do has gone on expanding. and sooner or later russia was going to say enough already. we were going to do something about this, you know, again, i want to go back to something i said in the 1st part of the program here, is that there's this seems to be we hear this mantra problem. so we're just

a line over and over and over again is that it's on speed dial or something. but if you look what's coming out of european capitals like, you know, going to the new killer ops, you know, growing rush out of the switch system. you know, that's easy for somebody in washington, a think tank suburb, you know, with air conditioning. but you know, the germans in to say, well, how are we going to be? how is russia, what is that was the energy. i mean, you're, you're european union countries. you know, the importance are a 3rd of their energy from russia and it's got only going to grow. mean, throw them out of the system and how do you pay? i mean, is anybody in washington thinking like this? because it seems that you know, as georgia and you're both pointed out in this program years and even as so called negotiations are going on. us senators are showing up in campsite sanction sanction, sanction me. you know, they understand the gravity of all this because it seems to me that nature was desperate. if it can't get its way every single time, then it's kind of

a broken system and no will take it seriously. i think the very worried about that . go ahead. well, that its purpose on it. i mean, when, during the cold war, nato was a necessity to balance to some of the union after the cold war, the purpose of nato was collective hedge money. so you join it and, you know, we, we, we, you know, actually make the decisions. now obviously, and then the main problem having now is that it will, 1st of all, keeping this grouping together because in america, kind of suggesting that we are willing to fight the russians down to the last european and, you know, obviously the europeans are getting some, some cold feet, here we go. so just quickly, a little bit back up with what you're saying, as well as a lot of what has been able to keep the cohesion between nato, a strategic ambiguity already in the ninety's. the americans could go to french and german thing. listen later, we're just going to have a democratic club, you know, a russian, and then you have to go to the polls going. of course we're here to balance the

russians and you know, so you can't be too explicit because these are all contradictory positions. so this is the strategic ambiguity you don't, and this is why the russians want to go from the very big us to the specific and, and that's why also, that they don't want to go down this route either. but, but the same as this threat to, to need or obviously, you know, the good possibility of natal war against russia is a possibility. but it doesn't have to be either or countries per se, what's called escalation dominance. which means that the u. s. dominates all along russian borders. they can dictate everything to the russians and knowing that the americans can bring tension up or down that will and it's nothing rush can do under those conditions. russia would always have to capitulate. and this is again the complete. this is what a mom is after. so it's up to say that need to be a threat. i mean, it's just, you going to can repeat this until sounds like makes sense, but it doesn't. and they have to floss on this cutting rush from swift. and, you know, this full out economic, oregon, the, against a russia, obviously,

this is going to get back on the european very hard. i mean, the russia spent least a past 8 years, making its economy sanctions proof. and it's getting very close to having, it's a fully proof, i mean they, they have a diversify their economy, the financial instruments. and if, if they would crush off switch, then obviously this will bring a lot of pain to european economies. but also the question then becomes for come, for the germans. how would we actually buy gas from the russians to set up? but you don't know how the russians will react. if you declare global economic war on them, you know, they might have a counter sanction. they might have something up their sleeve, so they don't want to go down this route at the moment. part of the u. s. f for enhancing negotiations. tactics means this is actually part of now talking to listen case, as opposed to more l and g to the european. so because if they feel more secure in the energy than we can, you know, then we can keep this anti russian alliance together. they will be more, there will be

a bit older to go off. the rush is just that mean huge problem because they can't keep us all of that together. the possibility of having the strategic ambiguity is not working and overall is just the whole thing. seems to be melting down. i mean, at the same time, the british american saying we're where we're standing and i guess, right? so you have my own saying, listen. and we have to re imagined european security. we found that going like this, you know, also, germans showing some understanding for, for the russian position. yeah. it's not absurd. this idea that russia has security interest shocking and it can be a threats. yeah, i mean, just charge that the, that when makes it so bizarre for me is that you from the official nato line, is you know, rush, rush is a lifestyle aggressive nation. but nato's even even nature's behavior in approach towards russia engenders as a mistress. and i a hostility, i mean they're generating it because it one just said, i mean,

you want to go down the sexton road. you want to do the lease a rush out of the swift system. well, these are, this is a can to war. i mean, certainly, economic war, i mean, russia would be justified in reacting and, and in an equally hostile way. me how, how, how does that create pan european security? i mean it's, it's like it's begging a conflict because there's the sense because of the nato world view is that they were always right. and the only their security matters. and so that was, why should russian a care, i mean, you can have with that talk for 30 years, the engender nothing. i mean, there could be a very serious russian reaction. are they taking that into account? and i think that's an excellent one because you know where everything that native has done is very much, you know, it can be seen to be all containment and enclosure against

russia and an attempt to diminish and eliminate russian power and influence in the world. i mean, that's actually, you know, they've, they've scooped up all of the members of the, also back. they have now screwed up. the former soviet republics. they indicated that they have every intention of slipping on war. soviet republics, this goes together with extraordinarily. ringback belligerent rhetoric, coming from the western capitals, coming from the nato secretary general. i mean, the way they talk about russia and monstrous, evil place that you know, we have to unite against. and so from the russian perspective, i think it's very reasonable to say, well, what are they off that they are off eliminating, eliminating as any kind of a whole. so the, well, it's not the center of what the polian tried to log hello. well,

let's try to do that, is that, you know, that's the situation and we have better move now before in a decade it could just be too late. and i want you to simply go surround us with hostile satellite states of nature. and it's because you know, how any, any kind of leadership in russia, you react in any other way using your analogy there your parallels. i mean, then it would be the breakup of russia. that would be the next. that's absolutely would be the next step. yeah, i mean, like i tried this in the ninety's and there's no question i mean, but if you know what, what russia is surrounded by these natives after i say, lo and behold, we're going to find all kinds of your dentist movement inside russia goes on the line very is long independence movement among all the various, some

a republics within the russian federation. that would be the next step would be to just, you know, step by step to break russia. ok. i was always, always been the agenda. and so i was good rush response other than this was a no, we've had enough. you can either discuss this now in a proper way. what got some neutral exactly or framework, or we're just going to have to take steps you know, to, to ensure our security. but what you've been doing can now go on and just simply forming assault with, well, the rundown. we need plans to bring ukraine into nato, a lot of time here, but i think we're all in agreement. talk is just talk ok. it's all the time we have want to take my guess and also included as to what i think will be worth for watching us here to see you next time and remember ah in

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