while morris johnson, if i transfer let's go like this weekend may have opposed charging those involved. the world is, but i was away from commemorating a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week, beatified as priests slaughtered by alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court? opening up a new investigation of the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case all this, i'm all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians. enough. no one has ever faced trial in bars. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining us from cook's down northern ireland is faint and p for middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much traffic coming back on. i mean,

people were waiting this week for sue gray in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what blood they bloody sunday was and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity was. thank you very much for the imitation home on a really sunday was change in our parish political same a was a mass of change your cars for the 1st time and this are a champion british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with lay branch on, on, on arm civilian marching. they and they, they targets were very much in the end of april walk in the honda han, as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprise to people his id were unarmed anom survey hymns,

women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor, right? i have for this impact to happen. i guess it was, of course i don't 2nd bloody sunday because in the 1920 the but he's on did well, i'm british. so talking in co park as to a remainder of those days. and that the, the war was still continuing a bay, the british government, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one when churches, black and tans fide into into a gigantic football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment. the 2nd bar, a strong to the prime minister has said previous me that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury. if 4 men would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when of course the letter i read nan, linen shirt long periods of time in jail. thousands of them and long cation english

presents and irish prints on a cross word, a reporting and directly convicted in jails. some of men on by it skeptical grounds, unforced, compassion, and torture on all the rest of the go to legacy off the british control. and iron is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died already sunday, the 13 on the day and one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that is by clear from the way jury tribunal. first of all, it was a told her, ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i think what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convex soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that and rational this come, iraqi bombarding said, well, of course, following what is off the nuremberg though. no excuse for any kind of atrocity. and

you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in a number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive, we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one para also involved in valley murphy. and i just have the one, when of course frank kiss, who was the architect of all of us, not only of the shoot to kill policy which required or to go to somebody and by the marquee, and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision it were, he used at the loyalist forces in collision with the armed force of the r and your you see the character orders on the national table kitchen series as he put in the big is very much in the line of the strategy that we owed by the ours, you'd regiment mistake, and it is remarkable that the high he had never been hailed or, or all the atrocities of catered on the i'm shop that he give. and as you say,

i'm not only in iron by around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and on down any objections to pretty early in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but his grace pharmacy, i able, it's general the trends that he read. frank kitchens book when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that we've mentioned bloody sunday and somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years, when, just as colonial or on the domination not britain has tried to you across the word, the empire, a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many areas i'm tested, osman whether be based in goblins to,

to replace others. they partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as on the salmon island or the partition in the country after the re sunday of 1920, that jackie then finish up on the c m strategy on the same idea. they that were some say, britain has are not to learn what a one thing that has done it has continued. do want to dawn at those times. i'm right to read is colonial, ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a cotton behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid. south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the collusive behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only release in the past few days. when i get quite clear and just go off

the british government, i've been involved in a, in no 50 years from the early civil rights comp. am i took part in the for civil rights marsh glenda. and i was lucky if you look up a one on one boat, right to house, right to jo. a on the british government installment at that time, couldn't deliver no simple demand. because to give people race, it would stay in the country and they would have for jobs and stay on the right number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion. i, she has been part and parcel, or the british control island and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course, no mas mom clearly stand, that it was collusion in the borders that collision director by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office as african americans by british agents, i think at a time,

whenever the staffing regime was come to an end and were they at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i'm most of the martyrs that happened on time. were borders it made, it was weapons brought in from south africa. well, ministry defense. some says the way the army is trained weight works and the way it operates will change significantly. what about jeremy corbin actually? i mean, some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow still lingers of british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security service reprisal today. i think there's also that fear within the mind but didn't know jeremy. i went on and john mcdonald and others within their great paul rosewood, one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion,

and even jim gunn. and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs and robin hays. the way them whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm a parliament stoned it no longer up arm to simply an assembly because they couldn't manage the proper control of power and and they if you get it the special powers actually also want to get it the, the shoot to kill on the integers to internment. no ramp. often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determined which again, infected winds on the nationalist people in turn, people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any which were of course you have to remember that it was new iraq in operation. no, really sunday and others got out. we became recruitment agents for the ira because the at what the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i,

i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes, obviously, britain, once it prospected trade deal with united states. do you think bloody sunday as a factor in jo biden's actions towards his nato ally, britain? well, i, i don't know the details. i was he and around went away. he was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business, want to keep there and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right across asia, america, there is the good 12 support or the nation is cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years to obey. and i know there's no, not like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from. i'm looking for walk because the ash and of the really common in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and play

a plan in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if you interfere with the good for a reason that the you will be noted agreement between britain on the market. and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm right to work and make sure that the carrier to control, to make sure that the act, the good friday agreement is now tampered with enough damage in any way whatsoever . but whoever the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented, we need to see if fully implemented. and again, no, you are talking here after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity and that's been held back by the brandy . but he started to stand for the present time. he will give that referendum when i

received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been adopted. frontal, i thank you. thank you. after the break, another nato nation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back $989.00 jesuit priest massacre in el salvador, all the smoke and we have about 2 of going underground. ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on a very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk the

correcting. they're having a nervous breakdown, very public nervous breakdown as they should. things are going their way. welcome back 100 years ago today. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and made increased u. s. interests in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now, $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened after an hour returned to amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much,

professor for coming on the part when we talked about the 50th anniversary of mass you k killing in ireland known as bloody sunday and the attempt for justice. why is el salvador opened this criminal investigation into events in 1989 when, of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a funded the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at dest squads, along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst mask her in a latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now, that's really important because why i opened the jazz, what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance

with the military. therefore, is the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are a president alfredo christianity who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge if they are, they will be very low level if this case precedes forward i own own on whether it actually proceeds. but it was, he, the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness at the trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in

this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence. they need, they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is away to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy, who i have particularly president christianity. it was just resistors revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts, a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party which the bouquet government would like to see a disappear. i should just quickly say though i express the christiane he has already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. and i mean, i should the investigation do, have you ever felt this, that it should, it should target fort benning and georgia where i understand the alleged killers, world trend, the school of the americas. well,

you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the, the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvadoran lot different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this,

or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the villian, top commander of his, of military, even though he didn't really control the military at the time. well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from the vendor papers indicating the alleged illegalities. let's just go to wilma z o d u really just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about animals. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in l. mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their

geographic location. i was a gorilla and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now what happened and on the so day which is as i said, the largest massacre that we know of in latin america in contemporary period is the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military which was formed under, i would say u. s to legit was not trained and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed the gorillas had left the area cuz they had a great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elm so day there was a story that the people in, on the so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma,

so it's a much more than the actual population of the city of the ville. it's a little village and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza, and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again at dawn. they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st, they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women. and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people of which

553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so today what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1092. or there was only enough money to take up that one of the sites where a 124 children and all of these were babies they were very young, were dug up. and i'm the sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to vote? national security advisors on this show we had right elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary state at the time and he is subsequently beam the special

representative of united states to iran and to venezuela. of course, many allegations about u. s. policy in venezuela, in recent times he'd be says that the act really the numbers do not totally at all of that. for a start. the u. s. military moves torture. this is will, it will generally the, and as for o, mazata, there were nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people the while he's, he is in the line of defense minister garcia who said he has said many things. first, he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field,

and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed and what was called the convent, that they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was cleared, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states. those who killed them were the atlas cancel. there is no doubt about this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador. is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna,

the identities of many of the children so that they are very small cas, it can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvador and military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot of evidence, a ok. well, regan's assistant secretary said thomas and said, no evidence to confirm government forces actually systematically mass good civilians. i need your apartment. i light one is saying that he later wrote an op ed and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry,

he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a commitment, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard to real veteran, god, perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are a force is that still one to oppose your view? that to what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was the arming. and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of

civilians. what is so shocking about the on the so the massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in el salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big massacres. they're in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there. because that's where all the kids, not all, but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk. what killings? but what was happening at the same time? and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the a, another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him. he did line

a congress, he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there. that's an error and i was surprised if i like i, i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. but i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor dairyland go. thank you. that's over the show will be back on monday when we talk

political corruption power to the people in corporate espionage with u. s. presidential contender, dennis, cuz senate shoe recounts attempts to kill him and his new book, the division of life about until then keep in touch while i social media and let us know if you think states should be held accountable for military killings of civilians. ah, there may, may, we should all be may or may, we should all be angry because a was going on, right. can't understand united states history and the role that slavery play is already a very formal institution. by the time united states became a nation, it actually to find the nation. the rise of capitalism is clearly on the backs of flight and the slaved efforts, if you had investigated lynching, said a great extent. you can't believe that really in the country and the country still

stands in brick. i'm from the south. everybody know, know what this failure to some extent. i would argue that we're still fighting the civil war. and the south is winning with those incidents of havana syndrome, as you mentioned before, things like difficulty concentrating, insomnia memory problems. they're so big asked to be experienced by just about everyone who has ever lived in any given week. right. and so now people all over the world who are military personnel, or intelligence officers or diplomats working for the american government, are now on the lookout for these anomalous help incidents. and literally, people are getting up in the morning and squeeze in attributing it to a syndrome

a mean because it's so bang ah ah, headlining right now, president biting plans to position us troops in eastern europe. they show a force against russia. despite nato's chief admitting, there's no certainty about whether moscow would invade you cray. meanwhile, germany swimmers against the nato tide by resisting sending on to you. craig move this called the backing of the german public. according to recent polls. against the fundamental human right of bodily autonomy, a group of british national health service staff to see the government as tens of thousands could potentially faced the fact if they don't get a coping job by next week. we get the latest from one of the doctors behind the lawsuit.