inquiry, of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there is a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was, and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was changing up as a political saying a was a massive change because for the 1st time and this horatio champion british soldiers had, i went in and opened fire a with lay round on on, on arm, said they didn't marching. they on they, at they tie guests were very much in the night of a boat walking. honda and han, as the song said that after time or on the steps of martin luther king, that he had done the sam america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and appraised to people is id were unarmed on i'm survey hymns,

women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor h. i for this attack to happen. i guess it was, of course, i don't 2nd bloody sunday because in the 920 the but he's on did well, i'm british to talking hard as towards remainder of those days and that the, the war was still continuing. a bay, the british government, the british army in barre. yeah, the 1st one when churches are black and tans fired into into a, a football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment, the 2nd bars johnson, the prime minister has said previous me that as regards who should take responsibility for it, they would be quotes. there would be a storm of utter fury if foreman would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when, of course, there are a lot of i re, men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them, a long cation english present, and irish print, and across word,

a reporting directly connected in jails, some of them, and on by it scaffold graham's a on force, compassion to torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control, and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day and one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that . it is by clear from the witchery tribunal, 1st of all, it was a total, ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i that what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that aggression this come iraqi foundation shake. well, of course, following what is of the nuremberg though, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in

cyprus in bahrain, in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive. we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent, also involved in a valley move united, 71. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect to all of us, not only all the shoot to kill policy which retired on buddy sunday and bought in marquee and other parts of the north. when brain were to the end of the collision, it were used to the loyalist forces in collision with the armed forces u d r. and you're, you see to care motors on the national paper, talk in some theories as he put in the book. if i were to the right of the strategy that we owed by the are issued regimen mistake. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm shop that he

give. and as you say, and not only in iron by around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any objections to print in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraceful missy. i a boss general the trance that he read. frank kitchens book when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that we events in bloody sundance, i'm not connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years? well, it, it just does colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to across the word, the empire, a story to mention what they say instead of trying to hold on to as many or is untested osman, whether be basin and goblins, to eat, to replace others,

they partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they are whether as understand and iron or the partition in the country after the british on the 1920 that jackie then finish up on the cm strategy and same idea. it was some say written has are not and learn what a one thing that has donated continued. do want to dawn at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman from northern ireland report, which was only released in the bus few days when they get quite clear and just got

the british government. i've been involved in a, in know, the years from the early civil rights comp him i took part in the for civil rights . marsh glided on young. and i was lucky if you look up a woman one boat, right to house and right to jo. a on the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race, it was stand the country and they would live for jobs and stay under that number. they had the union vote in the years to come, so they had the whole collision. i. she has been part and parcel of the british controlled island and unable to this day. and there of course, most recent course. now my mom clearly stint that it was collusion in the motors that collusion directed by the british government collision, implemented by the or u. c, u d r i. and on special ranch the importation office as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever they said often regime was come to an end and were they at the

british were re army loyalist here? i'm most of them orders that happened on time where borders change don't they who happens but in from south africa? well, i mean it's your defense son says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about jeremy colbin? actually, i mean, some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. i think there's also that fear within the mind, but i didn't know jeremy. i went on and john mcdonald and others within there. great. paul rose was one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke in relation to ratify the wrongs that robin age the way them whitelaw with

a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm a part of stoned and no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the proper control, a power, and on a if you get it the special powers actually also want to get it the, the shoot to kill on the integer to internment. no ramp. often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determined which again, infected winds on the nationalist people in turn, people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any which were of course you have to remember dusted it was who i rang in operation. no, really sunday and others got out would became recruitment agents for the ira because the at what the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously,

some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously, britain one's perspective trade deal with united states. do you think bloody sunday as a factor in jo biden's actions towards his nato ally, britain? well, i, i don't know the details. i was he and around went to wayne was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players doesn't want to keep their and bring about the good friday agreement . and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the nation is cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years to obey. and i know there's no, not like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from. i'm looking for walk because the actions of the really common in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and plant in what

a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if you interfere with the good for a women that the you will be noted agreement between britain on the market. and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm right to work and make sure that the carrier to control and make sure that the actually a good friend agreement is now tampered with a not damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented. and again, know your talk on your after the good for the same. and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity and that's been held back by the brandy british. i understand the present time. it will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway

agreement. it has never been adopted. frontal, i thank you. i do after the break, another nato nation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back 1999 jesuit priest masika in el salvador, all the small coming up and bought 2 of going underground. ah yeah, bath cracking. they're having a nervous breakdown, a very public nervous breakdown as they should. things are going their way. join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. but i'll be speaking to guess of the world of politics, sport, business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. mm

hm. is the earth's still large enough to satisfy the ambitions of jeff bezos? you know, it's got its tentacles in so many aspects of the economy. there's nothing that amazon isn't trying to get into to step by step. the amazon empire has extended its group on the world that walks by conduct and quacks like a dog gets a dog. so amazon looks like monopoly trades like a monopoly makes money like monopoly behaves like monopoly. amazon essentially it controls the market place. it's not really a market as a private arena, a world where a single company controls the distribution of who daily products and the infrastructure of our economy. is this the world according to amazon? ah, welcome back 100 years ago to day. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create

a regional government and made increased u. s. influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now 33. as on the salvadoran supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after a now overturned amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much, professor for coming on in part when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think regen actually defended the you, the salvador and military,

which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people. and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst massacre in ah, latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now that's really important because why i opened the jazz, what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, it's the to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are present in alfredo christiania, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're

seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge. if they are, they will be very low level. if this case precedes forward i own own, on whether it actually proceeds oversee the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness at trials in spain. do you expect to be an expert witness in this one? i do not, i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy, who i have particularly present in christianity. it was just revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts for a lot of quite

a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party, which the bu kelly government would like to see a disappear. i should just quickly say though i express the christiane he has already denied involvement in the killing and killing the brace. the investigation, i mean i should the investigation do, have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning and georgia where i understand the alleged killers were all trained the school of the americas. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military area, the highest commander, was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the, the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the

spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvadoran law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask the, the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of, of military, even though he didn't really control the military. it, well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legalities. let's just go to wilma z o, do you really just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of

children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about animals. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general blemishes. what happened in mil mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military, i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location. i was a gorilla and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now, what happened in the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that no of in latin america in contemporary period is the, the uh, la cottle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s. to lodge, it was not trained,

and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elm, so they, there was a story that the people in elma so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so too much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the

plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so today what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1092.

or there was only enough money to take up that one of the sites where a 124 children and all of these were babies they were very young, were dug up. amanda sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to for the national security advisors on this show? we had right, elliot abrams on he was assistant secretary state at the time and he is subsequently been the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela, of course, many allegations about us policy and venezuela. in recent times he, he says that the actually, the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start the u. s. military, people like general galvan layton major commander 7th, wanda, would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata,

there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 992 forensic dig was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent, that they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were, were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear,

they were mass heard by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed them where the uh, la cancel, there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just canceled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador is that you can on no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the,

a salvador and military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot of evidence a ok. well reagan's as this is like your say, traumas. and to said no evidence to confirm government voices actually systematically, mascot civilians are we layer of commons. i like want to say that he later wrote an op ed and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the u. s. congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean you're on the command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, the river god,

perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still one to oppose your view led to what was done was wrong given that you abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was, ah, the arming and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south? the massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in el salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big massacres. they're in the rural areas where they're

very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there. because that's where all the kid, not all, but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk. what killings? but what was happening at the same time? and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him . he did line a congress, he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error. and i was surprised. i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i

have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal, professor dairyland go, thank you. that's over the show will be back on monday when we talk political corruption power to the people in corporate espionage with u. s. presidential contender. then it's consented to recounts attempts to kill him and his new book, the division of life about until then keep in touch, why will our social media and let us know if you think states should be held accountable for military killings of civilians?

there may or may we serve up in may or may we should all be angry because what's going on right. can't understand united states history and the role that slavery plate is already a very formal institution. at a time united states became a nation. it actually find the nation. the rise of capitalism is clearly on the backs of flight and it's laid down if you get investigated lynchings to any great extent. you can't believe a country. and country still stands in brick. i'm from the south. everybody. i know know what this thing to some extent. i would argue that we're still fighting the civil war and the south is winning

to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy. even foundation, let it be an arms race is on offensive, very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk ah, those incidents of havana syndrome, as you mentioned before, things like difficulty concentrated insomnia, memory problems. stone bay asked to be experienced by just about everyone who was ever lived in any given week. right. and so now people all over the who are military personnel or intelligence officers or diplomats working for the american government, are now on the lookout for. lisa novel is health incidents and literally people are

getting up in the morning and freezing and attributing it to a van a syndrome. because it's so bang ah ah, then by the time the position us troops in eastern europe and a show of force against russia, despite nato's chief meeting bears no 1st and see about whether moscow would invade ukraine. meanwhile, germany swims against the tow tide by resisting sending to you. craig move is called the back and get the german public. according to recent poll, candidates prime minister grounds the huge truck convoy opposing the vaccine mandate reg, dream is despite the growing dr. as movement of thousands now spreading through the capital also use against the fundamental human.