defies priest sorted by alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court opening up a new investigation to the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case, those him all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians. and also, no one has ever faced trial in bars. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining us from cook's down northern ireland is fine and p for middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much for coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in a inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil

servants and officials after the atrocity was thank you very much for the imitation home on a really sunday was changing our parish political same a was a mass of change your cars for the 1st time and the celebration p. m. british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with lay branch on on, on arms a 1000000000 marching. they and they, they targets were very much and then i don't even walk in the honda han as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised to people in id were on armed anom survey, hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under campers. all right, i have for this attack to happen. i guess of course i am shakin bloody sunday

because an implant is a buddy sunday. well, i'm british total compare and co park as to what a remainder of those days. and that the, the war was still continuing a, by the british government, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one when churches, black and tans fide into into a gigantic football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment, the 2nd bars johnson, the prime minister has said previously that as regards a who should take responsibility for it, they would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury if 4 men were charged for killings. while the iras gets away with it, when, of course, there are a lot of, i re, men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them and long cation english present, and irish print, across words, a reporting and directly convicted in jails. some of men on by it skeptical grounds,

unforced, compassion and torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control. and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that. it is very clear from the way to re tribunal. first of all, it was a told her, ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i thought i'm, what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that and russia this come iraqi foundation shake. well, of course, falling out is off the nuremberg no, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. and you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence

movement that he's alive. we invite him on, on the show. he was commodity one para also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us, not only of the shoot to kill policy which retired on sunday, and by the marquee, and other parts of the north, but brain, which in the end of the collision, it were used. the loyalist forces in collision with the armed force of the r and your you see the character orders on the nationalist paper. talk in some series as he put in the big is very much in the line of they strategy that's been out by the are issued regimen the state. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all c atrocities of catered on the i'm shop that he give. and as you say, i'm not only in iron by around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any

objections to print in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but does grace pharmacy i a boss general the trends that he read, frank kitchens book when the trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq, what does it make you feel that the events in bloody sundance, i'm not connected to the killing, wounding, or the spacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years. when just as colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to you across the word, the empire story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many areas untested osman, whether it be based, happen in goblins, to eat, to replace others may partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as on the salmon island or the partition in the country after the going on

the up 1920, that jackie then finish up on the c m strategy on the same idea. they that with some say, written has are not and learn what a one thing that has done it has continued to do. got it done at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the collusive behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the past few days when they get quite clear and just go off the british government. i've been involved in, in no 50 years from the early civil rights come p. m. i took part in the for civil rights march from california. and i was id be looking for a woman, one boat,

right to house and right to jo. a on the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race or stay in the country. and they would look for jobs and stay on the work number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and parcel of the british controlled island and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course, norman's mom clearly state that it was collusion in the borders that collusion director by the british government collision, implemented by the r u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i most of the martyrs that happened on time were borders, catered bay who was weapons brought in from south africa. well, i mean,

it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about to jeremy colbin? actually, i mean, some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow still lingers of a british politics today. the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that that fear within the mind, but i didn't know jeremy i would. i'm john dawn and others within there. great. paul rose with one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion. and even jim come and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs robin age. the way i'm whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm apartment

stone. it no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the at the proper control of art. and they get the special powers actually also want to get it they, they should together on the integers to internment. no, rand doctor with a go ahead from the british government, introduced and terminate, which again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any whatsoever . and of course we have to remember dust age, it was new array in operation. no ready, sunday, and others got out would became recruitment agents for the ira. because the and what the british government were doing and i did. and as part of the good friday agreement, m, i 5, are allowed to operate freely with a b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes, obviously, britain once it prospected trade deal with united it,

do you think bloody sunday as a factor in jo biden's actions towards his day to ally britain? well, i, i don't know the details. i was, he, i went to wayne was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business, want a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course, america, there is the good 12 support or the national cause because you know what britain infected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from i'm looking for walk because of the action that the really common in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and planned in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if you interfere with the good for a raymond, that the you and we know to agreement between britain on the market. and so that's

of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm or i can look and make sure that the carrier to control and make sure that they actually a good friend agreement is now tampered with a not damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented. and again, no, you're talking here after the good for the same. and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good for him. and that's up to both the british, i'm the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out because we do have the right to hold on irish unity. and that's been held back by the brandy. but he started to stand to the present time. he will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been there. got it. frontal. i thank you. thank you. after the break, another ne donation atrocity,

we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back $989.00 jesuit priest masika in el salvador. all the similar coming up about to have going underground ah ah, ah. bringing the related every out the day. this is no fun everyone had with

with welcome back 100 years ago today. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations. we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and made increased u. s. influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after an hour returned to amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much recivore coming on in part when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k

killing in ireland known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. while salvador opened his criminal investigation into events in 1989 when, of course the reagan sounds accused of funding defect or death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvadoran military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk squads along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst massacre in latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now that's really important because why i opened the jesuit case. the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened,

it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are a president alfredo christianity, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge if they are, they will be very low level if this case proceeds forward i own own on whether it actually proceeds or oversee. the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness to trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think since the spanish have all the

evidence they need, they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is away to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy, who i have particularly president christianity. it was just for 0 revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party which the bu keller government would like to see a disappear, i should just quickly say though, next president, the christiane is already denied involvement. in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation, and i mean, i should the investigation that you have you ever felt this, that it should, it should target forward bending in georgia where i understand the alleged killers, world trend, the school of the americans. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law.

but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? if that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case, he was an, an indicted co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvador in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask the, the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out to massacre. and then he is, in fact,

culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military as well. he denies wrong doing, and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. let's just go to wilma z o to you better. just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in a about animals. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in l. mazata, a. in 1981, in 1981. the salvadoran military, i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas, and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location, was a gorilla. and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported

whoever occupied their territory. now what happened and on the so day which is as i said, the largest massacre that we know of in latin america in the contemporary period is the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military which was formed under, i would say u. s to legit was not trained in, in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits . but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed the gorillas had left the area cuz they had a great deal of for warning that this was coming. but in the town of elma so day there was a story that the people and on the so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma. so take one more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village, and there were about

a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in. it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again at dawn. they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women. and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people of which 553 are under the age of 12

or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so today what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic diggs which happened during the peace agreements in 1992 . or there was only enough money to take up that $1.00 of the sites where a $124.00 children and all of these were babies. they were very young or dug up. and i'm the sentences of rape reported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to form a national security advisers on this show? we had right, elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary state at the time and he is subsequently been the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela, of course,

many allegations about us policy and venezuela. in recent times he, he says that the actually, the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start the u. s. military, people like general galvin leyton major commander 7th, wanda, would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were beheaded in the soccer field,

and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent, that they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were, were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed him where the outlook consul, there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador . is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna,

the identities of many of the children so that there's very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot of as and say, okay, well reagan's as this as like your st. thomas and the said no evidence to confirm government voice is actually systematically mascot civilians. are we layer of commons? i like want to say that he later wrote an op ed and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry,

he had testified in the u. s. congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean you're on the command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of a vanguard, maria and god, perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still one to oppose your view led to what was done was wrong given that you abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the doug course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was, ah, the arming and so salvador and military and this is

a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south? the massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in all salvador. and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big massacres. they're in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there. because that's where all the kid not all, but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk. what killings but what was happening? same time. and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to

rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error. i was surprised to find that. i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq or was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. well, professor dairyland go. thank you. that's over the show will be back on monday when

we talk political corruption power to the people in corporate espionage with u. s. presidential contender. dennis consented to recounts attempts to kill him and his new book, the division of like about until then keep in touch while social media and let us know if you think states should be held accountable for military killings of civilians in awe. there may or may, we should all be mayor, may, we should all be angry or what's going on, right. can't understand united states history and the role that slavery plate is already a very formal institution. by the time united states became a nation, it actually find the nation, the rise of capitalism clearly on the backs of slate and the slave. if you had

investigated lynchings to any great extent, you can't believe that the country and country still stands in brick. i'm from the south. everybody know know what this thing to some extent. i would argue that we're still fighting the civil war and the south is winning with

a, [000:00:00;00] with you as president biden plans to position the american troops in eastern europe in a show of force against russia, despite nato's chief admitting there is no certainty about whether moscow would invade you grade. meanwhile, germany swims against the nato tide by resisting sending arms to crane. a move that's got the backing of the german public. according to recent polls and candidates prime minister brands, the huge truck convoy opposing the vaccine mandate as extremists. despite the growing drivers movement of thousands now spreading through the capital ottawa up

with