ah, with you as president biden plans to position american troops in eastern europe in a show of force against russia, despite nato's chief admitting, there is no certain team about whether moscow would invade ukraine. meanwhile, germany swims against the nato tide by resisting sending arms to ukraine. a move that's got the backing of the german public. according to recent polls and canada's prime minister brands, the huge truck convoy opposing the vacuum mandate as extremely, despite the growing driver's movement of thousands. now spreading through the capital ottawa with those your headlines at this hour and it does it for me, but do not worry calling bay. my colleague will be here with

a pull and fresh look at news. that's in about an hour's time with our internet, with i'm option returns and i'm back in the studio after having had corona virus here in london for the 2nd time. this is going on the ground coming up in the show, while bar a strong to new fights for political life. this weekend may have opposed charging those involved. the world is but hours away from commemorating a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week, be occupies priests, slaughtered by alleged so called you,

it's back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court, opening up a new investigation to the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case, those him all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians. enough. no one has ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down northern ireland is she in finance? people middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much frontage coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for sue gray in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what blood a bloody sunday was and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and

officials after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was changing political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the celebration pm, british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with lay round on on, on arms debate in marching. and they at they targets were very much in the ninety's able walk in honda and han as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the sam america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change. i am surprised that people is id were unarmed on i'm survey hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights and the compressor h. i for this attack to happen to guess it was of course i am 2nd bloody sunday because in the it is 830 sunday. well,

i'm pretty still choking back co heart as to where to remind her of those days. and that the, the war was still continuing a bay, the british government, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one when churches are black and tans fide into into a gigantic football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment. the 2nd, lawrence johnson, the prime minister, has said previously that as regards who should take responsibility for it, they would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury. if 4 men would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with, it. was of course a lot of i re men and women serv long periods of time in jail. thousands of them and long cation english present, and irish print, and across word, a reporting and directly connected in jails. some of men on by it capital, graham's unforced compassion and torture on all the rest of the go to legacy off

the british control. and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day and one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that . if i care from the wintry tribunal, 1st of all, it was a told her, ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i think what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convex george's for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. i was quite clear that and rational this come iraqi bombarding shake. well, of course, following what is of the nuremberg? no, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. and you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day. frank kitson, he had been in cyprus in bahrain in a number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive. we invite him on,

on the show. he was commodity one para also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when, of course, frank kitchen was the, aren't you talking to all of us? not only all the shoot to kill policy which was tired, i'm going to sunday, and by the marquee, and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision, it, we're used to the oil is forces in collision with the force of the r and your you see to care motors on the national table kitchen series as he put in the big if may, which in the line of they strategy that we owed by the arse you'd regiment on this day. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been had are, are, are all healthy atrocities out of catered on the, i'm south that he give. and as you say, i'm not only in iron but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any objections to print in whatever content. maybe i went over

a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraceful m a. c. i a boss general. the trends that he read, frank kittens, book when they tried to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that vincent, bloody sunday and somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east to west asia? in the past few years, when, just as colonial on the domination that britain has tried to you across the word, the empire, a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold onto as many areas and test osman, whether be based happening goblins to need to replace others, they partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as understand when iron or the partition in the country after the british on the of 1920, that jackie then finish off on the cm strategy. oh same idea. the that was some say,

written has are not in what a one thing that has on it has continued to do. got it done at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours across word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a cotton behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid. south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the apparently clues of behavior according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the past few days when they get quite clear. and just gloucester, pretty common, have been involved in, in no, 30 years from the early civil rights comp. am i to pardon the force of rice marsh, california? and i was lucky betty looking for one on one boat right to house. right to jo,

a on the british government installment at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race, it will stay in the country and they will live for jobs and who stay under that number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion. i, she has been part and partial i, the british controlled ireland and unable to this day and there of course, the most recent course. no. my mom clearly spent that it was collusion in the borders at collision director by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch the importation office as african americans by british agents. i think at a time whenever this afternoon regime was come to an end and were they at the british were rearming the loyalist here? i'm most of the martyrs that happened on time. were voters catered by who was weapons brought in from south africa? well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way

it operates will change significantly. what about tab, jeremy corbin actually, i mean some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow still lingers of british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security service reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that fear within a month, but i didn't know jeremy. i would, i'm john mcdonald and others within the required poll rosewood, one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion. and even jim come and he come to darian id, spoke in relation to ratify the wrongs that robin age. the way i'm quite law with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm windows. apartment stone, it no longer up arm to something assembly because they couldn't manage the proper

control apart. and they, if you get the special powers, actually also want to get it the, the shoot to kill on the integers to internment. no ramp. often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determine which again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who are totally innocent, a on to weren't involved in any whatsoever. and of course we have to remember that it wasn't array in operation. no, really, someday and others got out. we became recruitment agents for the ira because they want the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement and my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes, obviously, britain, once it prospected trade deal with united states. do you think bloody sunday as

a factor in jo biden's actions towards his nato ally, britain? well, i, i don't know the details. i was, he, aaron went to wayne was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players doesn't want to keep there and bring about the good friday agreement . and i think right across asia, america, there is the good to have support or the nation is cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years to obey. no, no there's no, that's like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from. i'm looking for walk because of the actions of the really common in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and planned in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good faith, we want that the you and we know trade agreement between britain on the market. and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's

a labor i think i'm or i can look and make sure that the carrier to control, to make sure that they act be a good friend. agreement is not tampered with enough damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented. and again, no, you're talking here after the good for the same. and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good for him. and that's up to both the british, i'm the irish government to make sure as the guarantors that they carry that out because we do have the right to hold on irish unity and that's been held back by the bread it many secretary state of the present time it will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been adopted. friends. well, i thank you. thank you. after the break, another ne donation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged

us back $989.00 jesuit priest masika in el salvador. all the small coming up and bought 2 of going underground ah ah ah, ah. join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess in the

world of politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. ah welcome back 100 years ago to day. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know to day formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and may the increase us influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now, $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after a now overturned amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies. department professor terry lynn call. thank you so much professor for coming on in part one. we talked about the 50th anniversary of mass

you k killing in ireland known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is el salvador open this criminal investigation into events in 1989 when, of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst mask her in, ah, latin american, contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now, that's really important because we opened the jesuit case. the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened,

it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are present in alfredo christiania, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge, if they are, they will be very low level. if this case proceeds forward, i own whether it actually proceeds or oversee, the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness to trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they

particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy, who i have particularly president christianity. it was just resistors revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the random party, which the bu keller government would like to see a disappear, i should just quickly say though, thanks, president, the christiane is already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. and i mean, i should the investigation you have you ever felt this, that it should, it should target fort benning and georgia where i understand the ledge killers were all trained the school of the americans. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law.

but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military, larry, and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? if that's really the, the issue that was in the spanish case, he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvador in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact,

culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of, of military, even though he didn't really control the military at the time. well, he denies wrongdoing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legalities. let's just go to wilma z o to you better just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about animals. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in mil mazata, a in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location. i was a gorilla and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported

whoever occupied their territory. now what happened and on the so day which is as i said, the largest massacre that no of in latin america in contemporary period is the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military which was formed under, i would say u. s to legit was not trained in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elma, so they, there was a story that the people in elm so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so take much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's

a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to for safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they kill the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young

use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1992. or there was only enough money to take up that $1.00 of the sites where a $124.00 children and all of these were babies. they were very young, were dug up. and i'm the sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hanged. you know, we've had to form a national security advisers on this show. we're right, elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary of state at the time. and he is subsequently being the special representative with united states to iran and to venezuela, of course, many allegations about us policy,

venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually, the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start. the u. s. military, people like general galvin, latent nato commander, 7 want it would never be counted as torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people, though. well, he's using the line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 992 forensic dig was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field,

and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent. they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states. those who killed him were the outlook consul. there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador. is that you can, i'm no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna,

the identities of many of the children so that there's very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying. this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvador and military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot. all of it is a ok. well reagan's is this is hector saint thomas. and the said no evidence to confirm government voice is actually systematically mascot civilians. i need your power, i like want to say that he later wrote it not bad and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry,

he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a commitment, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, to re of that. and god, perhaps, of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still one to oppose your view. that what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was the arming. and so, salvador and military and this is

a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in el salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kid not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back, is the news. then people covered mostly urban killings and desk. what killings but what was happening at the same time? and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him,

he did line a congress. he was convicted of that. and he maybe in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error i i was surprised to verify that i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favor lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor dairyland go. thank you. that's over the show will be back on monday when we talk

political corruption power to the people in corporate espionage with u. s. presidential contender. then it could senate your accounts, attempts to kill him and his new book, the division of life and bow until then keep in touch, why will our social media and let us know if you think states should be held accountable for military killings of civilians. ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on of very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk.