daily diagnosed and get whiteness seems to be an act of aggression. what is it symptomatic to discuss that i'm not going by rover by filling me on the early sr last year in the department of psychological medicine at the university of austin and also have an ascension math psychogenic illness. the real story behind the embassy mystery and hysteria. doctor are selling me, it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you. it's been more than 300 years since the salem witch trials are, which are now considered to be a, one of the most notorious cases of bi massey, syria in colonial america. and what's striking to me about it is how similar the per per to symptoms back than we're tv described, manifestations of the sample, cabinet syndrome, headaches, loss of balance and hearing, piercing sensation, disorientation compromise, mental ability, do you see anything in common there?

absolutely, and you know, when i think of this case, what i think of is shakespeare in a midsummer night's dream, and there's a quotation from that that goes like this, or in the night. imagining some fear. how easy is a bush, supposedly a bear. and in this case, we are literally talking about the russian bear and look, i can summarize this entire episode in a single sentence and it goes like this. it comes from an old medical outage. when you hear the sound of speech in the night 1st, thank horses, not zebra, it's the doctors at the state department. but for the most exotic, hi, pompous is early on and people keep attacking me and they say, you don't know what you're talking about. concussion like symptoms, white matter track changes. hearing loss, brain damage,

that's not bad psychogenic illness. but that's just not true. if you look at the 2018 journal, the american medical association study, even before that study was published, information was being linked to the press that many of the victims had these mysterious white matter track changes in their brains. about a year later, when the study finally came out, they found only 3 patients with white matter track change. it's. and if you go on the streets of moscow today, and you randomly pick 21 people, you have a similar breakdown because white matter track changes are common and everything from depression to migraine headaches, to normal aging professor sell me. i think it's easy to understand relatively easy to understand how something like this could have happened in the late 17th century, in rural massachusetts and in the 21st century in havana. as

well as frankly all over the place because american diplomats in russia, china yet not india, austria astronomy at the united kingdom and a host of other countries have filed several 100 similar complaints. what would possibly explain both and global scale of the problem. and it's very young, they're select 50, it's a distinct bias for the americans. sure. look, are we to believe that the russians have developed some kind of secret microwave or sonic device and are going down to columbia and targeting a home of one of the diplomats to make their family members sick? i mean, it's really absurd when you think about this. and what's happened here is people are getting confused because you've got 2 different phenomenon going on. you've got

the initial case of what happened in cuba, which is a classic textbook case of mass psychogenic illness. and then you've got what's going on around the world which is slightly different. one is mass psychogenic illness and the other is more mass suggestion because what happened is, after the initial report of what happened in cuba, the state department issued an alert to diplomats and intelligence officers around the world to be on the lookout for anomalous health incidence. and then the department of defense recently contacted all of its $2900000.00 service personnel and contractors to also be on the alert for anomalous health incidents and those incidents of havana syndrome. as you mentioned before, things like difficulty concentrating, insomnia memory problems. there are so vague as to be experienced by just about

everyone who has ever lived in any given week. right. and so now people all over the world who are military personnel, or intelligence officers or diplomats working for the american government, are now on the lookout for these anomalous health incidents. and literally, people are getting up in the morning and sneezing and attributing it to van a syndrome a mean because it's so vague. now, even if it's, even if it's the case of mass hysteria, i think it definitely deserves to be dealt with. and people may me professional how, but i would guess that it's efficiency would depend on what you stipulate or hypothesize to be the main cause and how close it is to reality. you have worked on this case for quite some time on i confident then that american officials at this point can afford you persist science with an open mind and

a bath interest of the victims at har. absolutely not, because what you've got here is a case of science mixing with politics. let me give you an example. recently senator mark or rubio came out and said anybody who advocates the mass psychogenic illness, explanation it's quackery. and what's really disingenuous there and really upsetting for someone like myself, who has advocated that is there are 2 sick work reports, classified reports that came out. one was in 2018, the secret jason group, which is a group of a lead us scientists who looked at microwave radiation. and the most likely explanation in that report was only released recently under the freedom of information act. and they concluded that mass psychogenic illness played a major role,

and it was virtually impossible to the microwaves. the other classified report was that done by the f b i. it's never been released, but it was recently leaked, and their conclusion was, it wasn't microwaves. it was mast psychogenic illness, and people like marco rubio would have known full well. these 2 classified reports were there. they would have been familiar with the contents. and at the same time that they knew those reports were there. many officials in the u. s. government have been peddling the microwave free effect claim and that it's not mass psychogenic illness, which is just very disingenuous on their part. now while the 2nd janet origin hypothesis is being discouraged, as you say, the media is right for speculation that it was indeed an act of aggression by the russians. so i saw that the washington post reported recently that they had of the

cia william burns. i mentioned this issue raised this issue during the talks that he's rational colleagues here in moscow and reported me even threatened some state to state action. the americans, for one reason or another conclude that it was indeed the work of the russians. she's got even more frightening than the, than any, as i could, jenny going my massey, syria hypothesis, even b latoria potential on both sides. absolutely. and it's very, very concerning. i mean, if you look at the national academy of sciences report, which came out and december of 2020, you would expect that to be a dispassionate science if analysis. if you look at the people on that panel, they had no experts on mass psychogenic illness and they had no experts on folks. microwave radiation, which were the 2 main explanations that they were looking at. a friend of mine,

simon wesley king's college, london, was initially on that panel. he is a world authority, a mass psychogenic illness. he gave an interview in which you stated that he thought it was possible that mast psychogenic illness could explain what was going on based on what he had seen. after that, they kicked him off the panel. so what you're seeing here is a mixture of science and politics. the other thing that's interesting as pamela spry one, the former ambassador to a couple of different countries was name by joe biden. as the head of the panel investigating of anna central for the u. s. government and recently she was on a zone call with several of an a syndrome patients. and one of them asked her, they said, oh, what about the f b i report which was leaked and they said it was mass hysteria. you don't believe that do you? and she said, well, i'm holding open the possibility of mast psychogenic illness. right. after that, there was an outcry in she was forced to step down and people were saying things

like, we're not crazy. you know, we're not mentally ill with that's not what mass psychogenic illnesses, mass psychogenic, illness doesn't mean that you're crazy. it is a collective stress response based on a belief. and everyone has beliefs and everyone is potentially susceptible. but professor sell me. that's what i am. lucas, so how cool? because, you know, you mentioned several in fact several 1000 examples though there is i could get it illnesses and some of them rise sporadically. but in most cases there are some be sitting conditions that will benefit hi piece. and then base case is usually used by a certain political motivations. if that's indeed the case with has on ascension, that is being handled both scientifically and administratively with a certain political agenda in mind. my question is,

what would possibly be gained from handling it this way? because i simply don't see having by an administration could benefit from, you know, hundreds if not thousands of diplomatic personnel coming out with some strange symptoms. asking for compensation, let alone raising tensions another nuclear power. you mentioned important work, their compensation because lawyers have now become involved and you're going to see tens of thousands of cases all over the world. now an american service personnel wanting to be potentially compensated. you know, that's a very important aspect to a van, a syndrome now, because the symptoms are so vague and they are found all over the place. you know, there's an interesting case that happened in 1954 in the united states in the pacific northwest,

where the u. s. was doing testing of the atomic bomb in the pacific ocean. and a rumor started that fallout was coming down on the pacific northwest, particularly in the region of seattle, washington, and people started to see these pit marks on their wins range. and it became so concerning that the governor of washington state owned president eisenhower and asked for assistance in an investigation was conducted. and the researchers concluded that people started looking at their win screens instead of through their wind screens as they normally do. and there's a similar parallel here with her van syndrome because people have anomalous health issues all the time. but now, any time a diplomat or an american service personnel has some type of help incident,

it's automatically looked at in a new frame. that this may be a central and you know, the other reason why i think this is so much a political issue is the word the word here isn't barris. meant to think that the u . s. government, under trunk, and now buying have miss identified the meeting calls of crickets and cicadas, because that's what actually happened when they looked at these recordings that people are and now they're a huge potential cost. you unpack, let's take a very short break right now, but we will begin. right on that. after short breaks, they tune on me

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or are you being with what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us. it will remain in the shallows. ah ah, who one come back to wells of course, very special and you also have on a sin jumped mass psychogenic illness and the real story behind the embassy mystery and hysteria. professor sell me you mention making holes of because they have that potential hypothesis. i think was initially suggested by the by the

cubans. and while it sounds possible, and it's funny i, you know, the, the issue i have with it is that if you go back to those initial cases, they, the whole case. i originated that the low level of the i a officials and have on them, but they were supposedly affected not to be embassy compound, but rather to large hotels. and i think at residential building or something where people of other nationalities are also present. you know, that was a deep evil doing of because, or the natural behavior when the other foreigners be effective as well. you know, in case is a vast psychogenic illness. it's important to understand the historical. busy context in november of 2016, the c i, a officer is walking near their homes and havana and hearing the strange sounds. they weren't sure what to make of them. and they said that it was almost like

a beam of sound being pointed at their homes. and in late december of 20161 of them had your pain and headache. and he went to the embassy clinic, which is very common symptoms. and afterwards he made it unusual comment. he said, you know, it's almost like someone is pointing a beam of sound at my home at night. and they didn't think too much of that. but then a couple of other ca, officers mentioned the same thing. and then this theory developed that the russians, or maybe the chinese or pointing some new acoustical device at the americans as a form of harassment. and what's really interesting here is when more recently you've had claims of microwave radiation and the fray effect, it's not the fray effect. we know that now, because in 2018,

a top secret classified report of a lead scientist called the jason group, looked at the possibility of the fray effect. and these scientists eliminated the fray effect because what, what happened was, of the 1st 21 victims, 8 of them reported their attack. now, if it's microwaves, you can't record the microwave because they're not a sound. the microwaves bombard your head in, stimulate a nerve in your ear or brain. there's a debate as to which one it is. and you get the perception of a barely discernable clicking cell. but e a, that's right. and when they looked at the recordings of those 8 recordings, they concluded that there were the maiden calls of the end, these short tail cricket and some other recordings that were done turned out to

appear to be assessed as cicadas. so it's just not possible. i mentioned the salem witch trials before, and many historians noted that salem village was known for its world of fascist population. there were many arguments over property and raising right as well as over values. it was a highly pure and dandy of righteous society. now, given the level of political polarization in the united states, especially following the election of donald trump, when some of those 1st reports of be honest in john occurs. do you think it may have been a factor in the emergence of the base here? well, this is a case of bad journalism, bad government and bad science. there really should be an investigation of the

journal of the american medical association and how they ever published the 2 studies they did. my 1st career was as a journalist about 40 years ago in the united states, and no one journalist look into stories like this. you can't be an expert on everything, acoustical weapons, or microwaves or all this other stuff. so you have to rely on experts. but in this case, the experts at the journal of the american medical association have really let us down. i don't know how those studies were ever published in the 1st books. well, you would be blame on one your journal, but, you know, as a, as a journalist who has been covering american politics over the last 5 years. and, you know, look at the case of this whole, russian gave down the narrative that it was essentially the crime linda has install of donald trump in the white house. and, you know, whatever was the level of russian interference in the american elections,

it definitely wouldn't have raised to the level of, you know, electing a president for a country more than 300000000 in the it's pretty much every american major, mainstream american outlet, ron, with this story is saw, and by the way, it was also the democrats. the democrats were made the conscious decision to portray trauma as a russian agent. they knew it wasn't the case. we know that from the weekend, but they made a conscious public relations decision as a way of, you know, destroying his image. i'm wondering if the biden administration is dealing, what essentially it's saw, it's on, and it's a fairly light case. at this point. a big issue that's going on right now, it's very frustrating to me as so many news organizations in so many leaks of officials and in american government. he pushing this idea that the diplomats in

cuba had brain damage. if you can show me that they had brain damage, i'll resign my position and the department of psychological benson often university . this absolutely unequivocally, not the case. what happened was in 2019, the journal of the american medical association published the study, which looked at this small cohort of patients in cuba. and they found brain anomalies. brain anomalies are not the same as brain damage. it's very common in small groups. when you look at brain scans to find vine or novelties, and these anomalies were very minor and they have conflated anomalies with brain damage. it is not been found whatsoever that there was brain damage in the diploma action. cuba, but it keeps getting reported over and over again. you so diplomatically avoided my

direct question about the manipulation of the narrative. i'm the, that's your ride, but i want to say, i can rephrase my question a little bit because i think the level of psychological flores ation in the united states is very high. and this is what allows for such psychogenic infections originate. and brad, very rapidly. what do you foresee another case, this slide about shark curve, for example, here, a non conspiracy, do you think it's, it's sad by the, then the lar, psychic energy do you think they made the other cases when people will be easily led to believe that somebody is out there trying to break them or cost them damage yet look, it's very concerning what's going on with the american government in with the american media and how they have handled this case. and the situation is right

for an incubation of further cases like this. you know, at some point you have to listen to science and the scientists, and that's not the case here. the national academy of sciences, the senate foreign relations committee, they interviewed mostly believers. where are the skeptics? the national academy of sciences didn't interview many of the skeptics. the prominent skeptics who had been speaking on this case and the same with the senate foreign relations committee. and there's this misunderstanding out here that mass cycle genic illness is somehow some kind of mental disorder or recalling people crazy. it is absolutely not the case. and people, i would assume i need somehow dealing with that because after all are being posted somewhere, overseas is indeed a stressful job. and maybe if people are so susceptible to those theories,

maybe they need help. now i have time for just one question and i want to ask you about the media because i know that before your single out the media as a, as a main driver and amplifier of the psychogenic illnesses. and it's very interesting that the point of view made that people are now wanting in line now using social media and media to relieve that psychic stress the way they used to go, for example, to the church, but instead of being discharged. the stress is being collectively accumulated, it's sort of, you know, continuous that it's infectious power. can you talk more about that? what would possibly be done to prevent this isolated case of psychogenic illness from spreading all around the globe among let's say, one countries, diplomatic personnel or even bigger groups. yeah, well, there's

a danger here for the future. and we have to get our house in order in the united states army, us citizen, i'm a new zealand citizen. and it's really embarrassing to me when you have such partisanship out there. and now on both sides coming together on this. and they have not looked at the science and they haven't listened to the mainstream scientists. i'm not a rogue scientist on a straight down the line mainstream scientists in those studies in the journal, the american medical association, any neurologist or medical doctor worth their salt, takes the time to examine those studies. those studies are very flawed, and we need to listen to mainstream science. but unfortunately, the waters have been muddy bipartisan politics and it's destroying the united states of america. and we've saw the last few years, and it's very concerning. it's very alarming. and it's, it's disturbing. well,

let's hope that somebody will take a lesson or 2 from a very interesting and gets funny. although as we discussed before, it would be pretty dangerous, given that this issue is now being discussed. bit been the military intelligence of rush in the united states. but all the nuclear capabilities that they have anyway, professor told me we have to live in there. thank you very much for being with us. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week. when will depart, ah ah,

join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. but i'll be speaking to guess from the world of politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. there may, may, we should all be mayor. may, we should all be angry and what's going on, right? can't understand united states history and the role that slavery play was already very formal institution. at a time, united states became a nation. it actually find the nation, the rise of capitalism clearly on the backs of flight and the slave if you had investigated leaching any great extent, you can't believe that really a country and country still stands in brick. i'm from the south. everybody

know, know what they're saying. to some extent, i would argue that we're still fighting the civil war. and the south is winning in the story, the shape, the weak ukraine dominates. but the headlines on the minds of nato states with legal arms, ammunition and the military equipment handed over to appear on the u. s. and u. k. prepared to send troops to eastern europe and also nato members agree to weapon ice ukraine. germany is slammed by allies the going against the blocks line while some spanish opposition parties say it's not bad countries war to wage. spain has no place in this conflict. we are not interested in any worse. all this is a pro cation of the united states and nato in an attempt to reshape the world order in which they are losing the influence.