oh, it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. ah, ah hello and welcome the cross walk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter little . war, panic is in the air, but not in care of. apparently, nato says it's united against russia, so called aggression against ukraine. but alliance members act in differing even contradictory ways. washington in london, appeared to want confrontation their allies. not so much. ah,

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess piper kennings. and in plymouth, he is editor and founder of 21st century wire dot com. and here in moscow we have maxine swartzkoff. he is director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international studies are a gentleman, cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate it. i'd start off with patrick and plymouth. i ended my introduction, my saying it looks like washington in london are more keen on some kind of confrontation with russia over the, the point of ukraine. and boris johnson is, i'm going to swoop in to why europe in, you know, has his great diplomatic plan that he's a banding about, is he just trying to avoid investigations into a lot of bad parties, or does he really actually have an idea? and then i will, we'll talk a little bit about bad phone calls, patrick,

get your take on this pitch fever. they were hearing the boys, johnson was absent without leave on this issue for weeks or with so called party gate. meanwhile, the sort of the war for in the u. k. press and through all the various ministers was going on under the surface. so it's a very bizarre situation to say the least. they're sort of late to the party and politically anyway, the u. k, but they're very active, of course, via nato, behind the scenes. so look at the bottom line here is, this is one of the biggest ever sort of virtual build ups to war in history. i mean, this is a propaganda operation. the likes, which has never been undertaken in modern times. and we, we've seen various types of propaganda with the war on terror, but not with sort of a conventional war warfare or with the sort of, you know, made to major powers going out to this level. so this is like new territory. so the question is, what is the objective here for the west and there's

a number of major pieces on the table. obviously there's geopolitically, you know, the u. s. is wanting to renegotiate just about every sort of major agreement that's left over from the cold war era, from various missile agreements that is backed out of, but also sort of defensive arrangements. reciprocal arrangements that were a set up by the cold war. russia is very much wanting to abide by those treaties. again, we always have recognize in the last 3 years, at russia's acting as a normative power. they're very predictable. you know, the u. s. is acting like in a rational state, actor nato is just taken on a completely different take their become an ideological organization. now, you know, they're no longer a defense. they're much more than just a defense a lot it's, it's an ideological, let's spread freedom and democracy. this is the new mission of nato. so this is a total break. so it's understandable why russia can't negotiate with these

these parties because it's very difficult to know where they're coming from, especially the united states. but we can go into that in a bit. so much talk about bad telephone calls. it looks like the president of ukraine is i'm in ski kind of bomb dropped the ball. he's not playing his role in the script here. and as i pointed out of my introduction, you know, you have, you know, western countries like united states like pulling out their dependence, you know, remember seeds and all that. and then he actually told the truth, at least for as a short time, he did say, you know, what's all this panic about? i'm here, i am president, i'd see what's going on. this is an over reaction. i'm paraphrasing, of course, is, is he in trouble? i mean, you don't, you don't tell the president of the united states, your patron, that he's wrong. you don't say that to the u. k. another one of your friends, i would think he's on very,

very soft ground right now. your take on what's going on between the u. s. and can you bring, will, you know, as they say, you become responsible for forever, for whoever you've tamed. so i think the use lensky is, is in, and in generally the, this, my don revolution in ukraine has been a poster child for, for democracy. whatever a u. s. was thinking of back in 2014 when they were supporting their qu. but i think what's interesting that the lensky is becoming a dark cardinal for her american. the domestic politics as president trump was each one of the telephone conversation with him. president biden was already in trouble over his some dealing scene ukraine. and then it was in the last, he was still in office. now the republicans are threatening to impeach president biden when and if they take over the congress in november of this coming

year. so, you know, even days i saw the name tag going around this money because lensky was, he's becoming kind of a big, big pain in the neck for in the u. s. damascus. but the, in seriousness, i think the situation is very bizarre indeed, because for the what prompted zelinski to talk in public initially was of the i don't know whether it was asleep on the tongue or button me spoke, or you can spilled the beans on the quote unquote, minor incursion of brushing to ukraine, that what they administration biden said would go and fight over. that in itself was quite an interesting remark. but the lensky initially was talking about there are no minor incursions. there's a big invasions that we have to care about. and then, you know, biden kind of turns the tables, this will actually, i am talking about the big invasion and the last, the goals, what are you talking about? we don't really see an invasion come so i do think it's did that. the situation is

kind of a self inflicted panic and wound, but we should have perhaps seen it come in because this narrative on what may come next and what type of invasion may come have been, you know, going around from different angles and it's easy for the 2 presidents in the vitamins lensky to kind of sleep on their own. banana. it's interesting, patrick, i mean, who would have thought a comment from a common crane would be in the cross hairs of 2 presidents when telephone couples we went from you was a perfect telephone call to it was a bad telephone call. the landscape patrick over the last few months, i can remember when it was going to have a meeting with the americans and he was on twitter. we need to be in nato now. meet on and now he's beginning to realize the cost of getting an a nato is his head. okay. and a good and maybe chunks of his country. i mean,

he's the hall guy and all this. i think he's begun to finally realize that, okay, we don't know what kind of control over is intelligence agencies or the military, patrick. your answer, survey lover of illustrated a good point to this, to this effect in his response to anthony blink and white paper and nato's white paper. it's good that they're passing papers around by the way, right now that's better rather not to be public. missiles and bombs. but again, i said, look, you can't, you can't guarantee that the ukrainian military is a unified organization. in other words, there are paramilitary units, or you know, far right paramilitary units, which aren't under the direct control all the time of one single unified apparatus . so if you look at, when you ramp up tensions and you have a potential for either a false flag or an image, 17 style event or gulf of tonkin type, a miscommunication that might be intentional in fact. but anyway, that aside,

it's very dangerous. a situation where you're heightening tensions like this, and u. s. is definitely putting pressure on ukranian government on lensky. many people will say that the ukraine government is captured already by the western sphere of influence by the united states. and it's interesting when you listen to tony blinking, and he's very shaky by the way, very nervous. when you listen to his speech press conference or the night, he's really only concerned with 2 things. one of them is a stock pile or stocks of weapons. the u. s is unloading all of their old last year's clothes, out stock on the ukraine, and then stockpiles of energy or energy, energy supplies. and it's funny that these threatening the rest is saying, rushes threatening europe with to weaponized. if russia weapon ice is it gas? and i'll have a dramatic effect on the european consumer and so forth. there's nobody doing more to shut down in train to pipeline than the united states and britain. ok. so i mean,

you can't take us seriously in diplomacy when they're making 2 different statements . basically the same speech, i mean it's totally inconsistent, like the level of duplicity is just off the charts. so it's, i can see it being very frustrating for a survey lever off russian diplomatic team to have any kind of meaningful negotiations or to, to know that you're going into negotiations. and the other parties already basically choosing of acting in bad faith before you even come to the table. so basically this diplomacy is finished at that point and what you have is this kind of media war, this bizarre parallel universe. it's been constructed by the u. s. media, they've been brought on the tele clinico now in the u. s. media during the rounds, the mayor of kiev, and they're saying vitality, are you going to physically stand up and fight those russians? when they come to sac? i mean, the idea that rush is going to march in and sac, he is just fantasy,

but this is what passes for like legitimate political discourse. right now in the united states. i mean, is really in a crazy situation. it's, it's come to right now. you know, mess it was about to think about a week 10 days ago that the russians maybe planning some kind of who in change of government. yeah. but you know, if you really think about it, i mean, maybe that's exactly what the state department in the, in the brits are thinking themselves because he did it in 2014. they might do it again and then blame someone else. i mean, i wouldn't put it past these people, go ahead man. well, obviously it's hard to, to think rationally when you have this irrational argument on the other side, i think what's 140, perhaps east of the likely next round of talks rush, ace, to continue his talks. he's going to evolve around something that's foreign minister, elaborate mentioned in again response to white papers. when,

you know, basically the department said that they're not going to discuss the future me to ukraine. so potential accession tinita which everyone knows is not going to happen . at least anytime soon, the response is suggested that russia is going to spin this issue around the concept of quote, unquote, undivided security in europe. and lateral who is referring to the 2 important papers that i think the rational part is going to put on the table. that is a stumble declaration of 999 in austin, a declaration of 2010 that endorsed this concept. if i divided security and no security of any country in europe could be achieved via security of other states. and i think that that is the substantial conversation and it's better for all the parties to, to go to talk about the i can jump in there. i mean,

this is something that the russians have brought up before. melton burge, the general secretary of nato, he just want addressing. i mean, this is again, one of the most frustrating things here is that the russians presented to papers. essentially, what would become treaties? lincoln just that won't react to ok, the self and burns as if, you know, the, the whole universe revolves around nato, is rules, which is so bizarre. i mean, i'm not, in ne, goes to why should i live in care about its rules? you know, at the right, and this is a good point. nato's open door policy that's seen as sacrosanct. this is basically become akin to in terms of the west and nato members. this is equal to internet still law in their eyes when it, oh yeah, i have a hard breaking up about our break will continue our discussion on some real estate marquee. ah, ah

it's an open secret that private military companies have been playing a role in our complex world wide. u. s. government doesn't track a number of contractors it uses in places iraq or afghanistan, united states army and the military in general is so reliance on the private sector . i would call the dependency, but we don't know who's the on the ground presence of these companies overseas. we just don't out west and private military companies can in their turn, views, so cool subcontractors from countries with trouble pass. the chances are quite good that they had also been charles soldiers. i says, i was a child, as well as my job professional job is with the whole moment. one full $41.00. if i said that with, with no flaw, minimum own, if you want. sure. which way to be merciless killing machines. now they fight and

die in other people's was people carol, lot one or a dead soldier or dead marine shows up in this country and we start asking yourself, why did they die? why do what were they fighting for? nobody bothers asked about that. contractors in i welcome at to cross that were all things a consider 9 funeral a bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah okay, let's go back to patrick, implement. we had to go to a short break there. go ahead and please then finish up. you thought though, this,

this idea that a nato policy open door policy in this case is somehow sort of equal in sort of weight to international law. this is the argument that's being put forward by nato country. so how did this happen? this has been sort of drifted out gradually over the last few years. you can see it in the rhetoric is becoming more political, more ideology. yonce dalton burgess is, is becoming sort of more of a political, a figure than sorta director general of any military alliance of nato's desperate for relevance in the world. and this is one of the reasons why this crisis is being ramped up. i believe there's also an economic piece on the back end of that. of course, that's the arm sales. it's the military, industrial market. ok. but beyond that, they're also very scared. you know, they're very close. they know that they're losing or have lost the don bass. okay. creamy has gone, everybody knows that john mearsheimer said that in 2014, nobody got the a and memo in washington for sure. but the dumbass is gone. so this is

a very difficult and they want revenge for crimea. okay, they're going to keep sanctions on. they're gonna sabotaged the normandy format and tried to make sure the minks accordingly are never realised. this is also a major objective of the west. so they're really in a difficult situation. and again, it's a, it's a situation that they're making now did the, my don qu mostly peaceful protesters into, into 2014 that and also did denial of history. the fact that the west has always been interested in destabilizing or, or grooming a certain factions in western or ukraine and this region since the end of the 2nd. or you'll never hear any of these 2 points. the qu, in 2014 and the history of the region, you'll never hear this addressed in context ever by any u. s. media politician or think tank pundum tree. ok, and this is, this is the reason why there's a major disconnect here in terms of discussions and diplomacy. yes,

maxine went to eat with haven't brought up that dumbass. right. i think this is where it's really key to it all because i think them and if there are thinking people in care in washington in london, they know that the don balance is lost. i mean, he can stay inside ukraine's borders, but it will have never had cable never have direct control over again. i mean, the camp government, you know, is killed, 14000 people there. i mean, i wouldn't trust them governing the dumbass again when see that's the key to at all is that somehow get a provocation for the russians to do some kind of committee action regarding dumbass, they care regime already knows it's gone. that's how you look at the men, that's the trap. when attack been attacked. ok. and then you know, the dumbasses of pros and cons like it has a different status. and then on the same thing, you know, some kind of skirmish around my, me and i ended up in defeat and then they say,

well, ok, our reward now is to get into, into nature. because we, we, we had to fight off an aggressor week when we were small. we were doing it back that we didn't have enough allied support. and then there are candidates, he becomes a lot more viable. does that make any sense? the maps it does make a lot of sense to me and i think in that context of overflowing of ukraine with weapons and then some of the private military contractors from the west is very worrisome in this respect for the assessments that so we in moscow here from, from, from the united states or, you know, since there are no security guarantees to need with then kind of formal nato framework we, the americans and the british and others have to show some support to the ukrainians are doing so by supply of weapons. and then things like this, i think we're also in other problem is that we're still are not secure from the what i would call the soft gosh, really syndrome. you know,

it may not necessarily come from as it lensky can self. but as, as patrick and many other analysts pointing out already that there are tons of actors, destructive accuracy in ukraine, and that liberal for alluded to that are interested in peter when all these talk over the, over the over done by show between russia and the us and others, and would be happy to use the weapons that are supply to them to stage a provocation. and, you know, create a pretext and the causes bella, for the, you know, rushing response and things i guess. and that will then ask a lead to an unintended war that no party really seems to be wishing for, because there are seriously no, no consequences, no consequences that you can predict at this point. but i think we've also seen that the past that wester states while having the a do not have a b, as for it was,

it comes from ukraine policy. really interesting, patrick gamma. a. not so long, but forgotten. bass reappeared in the british press, is shameka fact or, you know, have back from his trip from over the new years, he was in poland and wrapping turkey. and he ride back there was an arrest warrant for him. he showed up duly at the prosecutor's office and then apparently from what i'm told is that there were western embassies and camps of it. you know, let them out. i mean, pressure was the blind, this is what i'm told here. and all the sudden, you know, has been, is, gets big headlines. i mean, i and you know, they, the soccer, really a bank. i wouldn't want to be mr. lensky right now, because they're finding another say again, because remember what a shank i tapped the john benz. that's the guy they wanted. yeah, that's watching the one that's 1. 1. once in can someone that will do it. ok, do you great, get slaughtered, but you know,

that's the whole point isn't about ukraine. ok. what is that once he might do it again? let's see. i think it's suddenly realize he is. he is the sacrificial lamb and all this. and i think that's why i reached out to the brass country. sure, sure. i mean, the biggest fear of, of the west obviously is, is bilateral talks in negotiation between care of and moscow that they cut out the middleman as it were. you what, what else would you expect with to neighbor? so this is why they're trying to basically inflate this as a sort of international crisis as an imminent war and imminent invasion by the russians to make it more of an international for could very easily be di fears. but that's not so simple as we know that the hand of the united states is so far into new grain right now. and it has been for the last 7 years that i think it's almost inescapable that level of pressure and influence that every ukrainian leader is going to basically ex experience. it's very difficult situation to decouple the

west from, from ukraine on all those different levels. the lensky has an opportunity to do some great things in this situation and for his country and for the region, whether he actually takes that opportunity or not, you know, take a very brave leader to do that. and especially in the a fight in politics like himself, but back to the original point that my colleague here made maxim is that, you know, the false flag aspect is dangerous. but in the west, it will only take is it could be a cyber false flag is a really ramping up the cyber threat. so what i think would be a risk free escapade which the west loves risk free escapades, especially the u. s. in britain is to have some sort of a cyber incident, blame it on russia, and then throw down the hardest sanctions that you've ever seen. and basically declare this as virtual war. but as love, rob said, if they're going to lay down a new raft of sanctions like this,

that will be the equivalent from moscow's position of basically a break in the, in diplomatic relations. that serious dots are prelude to actual war, or it puts you into a hard cold war setting and nobody wants that to happen. but it seems like that's the direction. things are being pushed. so we'll see. yeah, i mean let met same. i mean, i have to agree with tactic, jeremy essentially no, there's, there's 2 tracks here. and ukraine has turned into a wonderful headache that the in the russians have been generated by western united states in the u. k. and just constantly boiling, having ukraine boiling, or plan being, it wasn't get to a certain point. they just wanted to know russia out of europe altogether. and that's why they're thinking about this all energy situation because that's, that's the, the weak link in all this week. there are reports that, you know, the u. k. in the, in the us are, are, find a couple of energy assets, a natural gas,

primarily from like tar in other places like completely remake the energy map of europe, which should be very, very costly problem. he wouldn't work. ok, i mean, this is something that is very, very dangerous because, you know, germany is the power house of europe. i mean, what the german economy is doing good and it's export oriented. an export oriented countries mean a lot of energy. again, you know, the biggest losers on this is in crane in germany. go ahead. well, i think exactly. that's the reason why the buys ministration is now being mad at the germans and why the british charles are getting that germany that would behave . and i think for the 2nd time in the last year, ever since the germans stood up for the north stream to a pipeline. this is the 2nd time they're trying to demonstrate that they actually do hear a little bit at least about their own strategic sovereignty in the decision making

. and are perhaps not willing to jump into this crisis without 1st seeing what russia up to are not willing to flood ukraine with weapons. and we have to give it to the credit germans. the been very careful, unlike many other nations in the west about providing weapons to armed conflict and the, the, the have to, i think and, and a more kind of cautious waiting line here to see what happened next before, you know, running before the train and sleeping sanctions on russia and shut them down the north stream. and that is not perhaps the position that the vital ministration expected. they thought, you know, the germany would be great ally in this crisis and would actually take on responsibility for, you know, pioneering the toughest response to russia and will hopefully, you know, the germany here may, may or all of a sudden and perhaps to the many surprise too many here in moscow be more and more cautious than the past. we'll see if they're able to stood up to the all that

pressure that's coming from, from washington now, and continue on the track. and you know, the paintings are also getting mad at germany for not as they think are doing enough before to, to, to jump to there, to support. i'm not doing enough to help destroy their own country. and this is a thing i really wish patrick about. 30 seconds left here. i think ultimately this is this gambit that nato is playing out is going to, it's going to, it is the part of the demise of nato, which i would regret, obviously. but also, the effort to separate right to, from europe will end up in my opinion, isolating europe, go ahead. 20 seconds to you know, and then important point is germany is, is as big as target is anything in this all geopolitical exercise pulling germany away from russia, making sure germany doesn't face eastward, not only that, but for the belt and road project as well. germany is fit to service both the east and the west magic library. again, the cold war mentality is nowhere in the west. if the russians out the germans down

the americans, and that's what it is still in one gentleman, that's all the time we have. want to think, my guess, and i'm and hearing mask, i want to thank our be worth watching us. here are the scene exam. remember ah ah ah ah ah, bring you the very latest every out the day this is not snow fun. everyone had with

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