joined by my guess, patrick kennings and in plymouth. he's editor and found her a 21st century wire dot com. and here in moscow we have maxine switch off. he is director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international studies, or a gentleman, cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. i start off with patrick in plymouth and i ended my introduction. my saying it looks like washington in london are more keen on some kind of confrontation with russia over the, the point of ukraine and forest johnson is i'm going to swoop in to europe. and you know, has a great diplomatic plan that he's a landing about, is he just trying to avoid investigations into a lot of bad parties, or does he really actually have an idea? and then i will, we'll talk a little bit about bad phone calls. patrick, get your take on this pitch fever they were hearing the boys. johnson was absent without leave on this issue for weeks with so called party gate. meanwhile,

the sort of the war effort in the u. k. press and through all the various ministers was going on under the surface. so it's a very bizarre situation to say the least. they're sort of late to the party and politically anyway, the u. k. but they're very active, of course, via nato, behind the scenes. so look at the bottom line here is, this is one of the biggest ever sort of virtual build ups to war in history. i mean, this is a propaganda operation. the likes which has never been undertaken in modern times. and we, we've seen various types of propaganda with the war on terror, but not with sort of a conventional war warfare or with a sort of, you know, made to major powers going out to this level. so this is like new territory. so the question is, what is the objective here for the west, and there's a number of major pieces on the table. obviously there's the geopolitically,

the u. s. is wanting to renegotiate just about every sort of major agreement this left over from the cold war era, from various missile agreements that is backed out of, but also sort of, you know, defensive arrangements. reciprocal arrangements that work a set up by the cold war. russia is very much wanting to abide by those treaties. again, we always have recognize in the last 3 years, at russia's acting as a normative power. they're very predictable. the u. s. is acting like in a rational state, actor nato is just taken on a completely different take their become an ideological organization. now, you know, they're no longer a defense. they're much more than just a defense, a lot of ideological, let's spread freedom and democracy. this is the new mission of nato. so this is a total break. so it's understandable why russia can't negotiate with these these parties because it's very difficult to know where they're coming from, especially the united states. but we can go into that in a bit. let's say,

let's talk about bad telephone calls. it looks like the president of ukraine zalinski kind of dropped the ball. he's not playing his role in the script here. and as i wanted out of my introduction, you know, you, you have, you know, western countries, you know, like united states like the u. k, pulling out their dependency from embassies and all that. and then, and then he actually told the truth, at least for a short time, he did say, you know, what's all this panic about, i'm here, i am present. i see what's going on. this is an over reaction. i'm paraphrasing, of course, is, is he in trouble? i mean, you don't, you don't tell the president of the united states, your patron, that he's wrong. you don't say that to the u. k. another one of your friends. and i would think he's on very, very soft ground right now. your take on what's going on between the u. s. and you will, you know, as they say, you become responsible for forever,

for whoever you've tamed. so i think the use lensky is, is in, and in generally the, this, my done revolution in ukraine has been a poster child for, for democracy. whatever a u. s. was thinking of back in 2014 when they were supporting their qu. but i think what's interesting that the lensky is becoming a dark cardinal for american domestic politics because, you know, president trump was each one telephone conversation with him. president biden was already in trouble over his some dealing senior crane. and then it was in the last, he was still an office. now the republicans are threatening to impeach president biden when an if they take over the congress in november or 70 years. so, you know, even though i saw the name tag going around, does monica lensky as he's becoming kind of a big a big pain in the neck for,

for the u. s. domestic, but the seriousness? i think the situation is very bizarre indeed. because for the what prompted zelinski to talk in public initially was of the, i don't know whether was asleep of the tongue or button me spoke. we're going to spill the beans on the quote called mitre incursion of rush into ukraine. that what the administration biden said would go and fight over. that in itself was quite an interesting remark. but the lensky initially was talking about there are no minor incursions. there's on the big invasions that we have to care about. and then, you know, biden kind of turns the tables, this will actually, i am talking about the big invasion in the last the goals. what do you talking mode? we don't really see an invasion come so i do think it's did that. the situation is kind of a self inflicted panic and won't, but we should have perhaps in common because this narrative sun,

what may come next and what type of invasion may come have been, you know, going round from different angles and it's easy for the 2 presidents and the vitamins lensky to kind of sleep on their own. banana. yeah, it's interesting, patrick, i mean, who would have thought a comment from a said common crane with a be in the cross hairs of 2 precedents when telephone calls a we went from it was a perfect telephone call to it was a bad telephone call. zelinski patrick, um it over the last few months i can remember when um it was going to have a meeting with the americans and he was on twitter. we need to be in nato now. meet on and now he's beginning to realize the cost of getting in the nato is his head. okay. and a good and maybe chunks of his country. i mean, he's the hall guy and all this and i think he's begun to finally realize it. okay. we don't know what kind of control he has over as intelligence agencies or the

military. patrick, your answer survey lover of illustrated a good point to this to this effect in his response. to anthony blink and white paper and nato's white paper and good to the passing papers around. by the way, right now, that's better rather not to be public missiles and bombs. but again, i said, look, you can't, you can't guarantee that the ukrainian military is a unified organization. in other words, there are paramilitary units, or you know, far right paramilitary units, which aren't under the direct control all the time of one single unified apparatus . so if you look at, when you ramp up tensions and you have a potential for either a false flag or an image, 17 style event or gulf of tonkin type, a miscommunication that might be intentional in fact. but anyway, that aside, it's very dangerous. a situation where you're heightening tension like this, and u. s. is definitely putting pressure on ukrainian government on lensky. many people

will say that the ukraine government is captured already by the western sphere of influence by the united states. and it's interesting when you listen to tony blinking, and he's very shaky by the way, very nervous. when you listen to his speech press conference or the night, he's really only concerned with 2 things. one of them is a stock pile or stocks of weapons. the u. s is unloading all their old last year's clothes out, stock on the ukraine, and then stockpiles of energy or energy, energy supplies. and it's funny that these threatening the rest is saying, rushes threatening europe with weaponized. if russia weaponized is it gas and out of a dramatic effect on the european consumer and so forth, there's nobody doing more to shut down and stream to pipeline than the united states and britain. ok. so, i mean, you can't take us seriously in diplomacy when they're making 2 different statements

. basically the same speech, i mean, it's totally inconsistent, like the level of duplicity is just off the charts. so it's a, i can see it being very frustrating for a survey lever off russian diplomatic team to have any kind of meaningful negotiations or to, to know that you're going into negotiations. and the other party is already basically choosing of acting in bad faith before you even come to the table. so basically this diplomacy is finished at that point and what you have is this kind of media war, this bizarre parallel universe. it's been constructed by the u. s. media. they've been brought on the tele clinico now in the u. s. media during the rounds, the mayor of kiev, and they're saying vitality, are you going to physically stand up and fight those russians when they come to sac? yeah, i mean, the idea that rush is going to march in sac, he is just fantasy, but this is what passes for like legitimate political discourse. right now in the united states. i mean, really in a crazy situation it's,

it's come to right now. no less. it was about to think about a week 10 days ago that the russians maybe planning some kind of who in change of government. yeah. but you know, if you really think about it, i mean, maybe that's exactly what the u. s. department in the, in the brits are thinking themselves because he did it in 2014. they might do it again and then blame someone else. i mean, i wouldn't put it past these people go ahead man. well obviously it's hard to to think rationally. when you have this irrational argument on the other side, i think what's important, perhaps east of the likely next round of talks, if russia to continue his talks, he's going to evolve around something that's foreign minister elaborate mentioned in again response to white papers. when, you know, basically the department said that they're not going to discuss the future me to

ukraine. so potential accession tinita, which everyone knows is not going to happen at least anytime soon. the response is suggested that russia is going to spin this issue around the concept of quote, unquote, undivided security in europe and lateral who is referring to the 2 important papers that i think the rational part is going to put on the table. that is a stumble declaration of 999 enough on a declaration of 2010 that endorsed this concept. if i divided security and no security of any country in europe could be achieved via security of other states. and i think that that is the substantial conversation and it's better for all the parties to, to go to talk about the i can jump in there. i mean, this is something that the russians had brought up before. melton bergmann general secretary. so he just want addressing, i mean, this is again, one of the most frustrating things here is that the russians presented to papers.

essentially, what would become treaties? lincoln just that won't react to ok. the self and burns as if, you know, the, the whole universe revolves around nato, is rules, which is so bizarre. i mean, i'm not, in ne, goes to why should i be buying care about its rules? you know, at the right, and this is a good point, nato's open door policy. that scene is sacrosanct. this is basically become akin to in terms of the west and nato members. this is equal to internet law in their eyes, when they all are breaking up, our break will continue our discussion on some real estate market. they're all driven by drink shaped bank for some of those with

things we dare to ask in ah ah ah ah ah ah a ah with

ah, welcome at to cross that we're all things are consider 9, peter labelle. this is the home edition remind you were discussing some real news. ah. okay, let's go back to patrick and plymouth. we had to go to a short break there. go ahead and please. then finish up. he thought, no, this, this idea that a nato policy open door policy in this case is somehow sort of equal in sort of weight to international law. this is the argument that's being put forward by nato countries. so how did this happen? this has been sort of drifted out gradually over the last few years. you can see it in the rhetoric is becoming more political, more ideology. john stoughton burgers is becoming sort of more of a political, a figure than sorta director general of any military alliance of nato's desperate for relevance in the world. and this is one of the reasons why this crisis is being

ramped up. i believe there's also an economic piece on the back end of that. of course, that's the arm sales. it's the military, industrial market. ok. but beyond that, they're also very scared. you know, they're very close. they know they're, they're losing or have lost the don bass. ok. creamy has gone, everybody knows that john mearsheimer said that in 2014, nobody got the memo in washington for sure. but did the dumbass is gone, so this is a very difficult. they want revenge for crimea. okay. they're going to keep sanctions on. they're gonna sabotaged the normandy format and try to make sure the minks accordion are never realized. this is also a major objective of the west. so they're really in a difficult situation. and again, it's a, it's a situation that they're making. now did the, my don qu mostly piece for protesters into into 2014 that and also did denial of history. the fact that the west has always been interested in destabilizing or grooming certain factions in western ukraine. and this region,

since the end of the circle were, you'll never hear any of these 2 points. the qu, in 2014 and the history of the region. you'll never hear this addressed in context ever by any u. s. media politician or think tank pundents re. okay, and this is, this is the reason why there's a major disconnect here in terms of discussions and diplomacy. maxine went to eat with, haven't brought up that dumbass. right. i think this is where it's really key to it all because i think them if there are thinking people in care in washington in london, they know that the dumbass is lost. i mean, it can stay inside ukraine's borders, but it will have never had cable never have direct control over it again. i mean, the camp government, you know, is killed 14000 people there. i mean, i wouldn't trust them governing the dumbass again when see, that's the key to it all. is it somehow get

a provocation for the russians to do some kind of committee action regarding dumbass, they care regime already knows it's gone. that's how you look at the man, that's the trap and we've been attacked. we've been attacked. ok. and then you know, the dumbasses of pros and cons. it has a different status. and then on the same thing, you know, some kind of skirmish around by me and i ended up in defeat and then they say, well, ok, our reward now is to get in. we do into nature because we, we, we had to fight off an aggressive week when we were too small. we do in fact, that we didn't have enough allied support and then that there are candidates, he becomes a lot more viable. does that make any sense? the maps, it does make a lot of sense to me, and i think in that context of overflowing of ukraine with weapons and then some of the private military contractors from the west. this very were some, in this respect for the assessments that so we, in moscow here from,

from, from the united, staves, are that, you know, since there are no security guarantees. denita with then kind of formal nato framework we, the americans in the british and others have to show some support to the ukrainians are doing so by supply of weapons and then things like this. i think we're also in other problem is that we're still are not secure from the what i would call the soft gosh, really syndrome. you know, it may not necessarily come from zelinski can self, but as, as patrick and many other analysts pointing out already that there are tons of actors, destructive accuracy in ukraine. and the laboratory alluded to that are interested in repeated when all these talk over the, over the over done by show between russia in the us and others. and would be happy to use the weapons that are supply to them to a stage of provocation. and, you know, create a pretext, the causes bella, for the rushing response and things i guess. and that will then escalade to an

unintended war that no party really seems to be wishing for, because there are seriously no, no consequences, no consequences that you can predict at this point. but i think we've also seen that the past that wester states while having the a do not have a b, as for it was, it comes on ukraine policy. really interesting, patrick gamma. a. not so long but forgotten, bass reappeared in the british press, is shameka. he's back or you know, came back from his trip. from over the new years, he was a poland and wrapping turkey. and he ride back, there was an arrest warrant for him. he showed up duly at the prosecutor's office. and then apparently from what i'm told is that there were western embassies and cancel, but, you know, let him out. i mean, pressure was the by, this is what i'm told here. and all the letting you know has been, is,

gets big headlines. i mean, again, you know, the, the soc, ashby, we are back. i wouldn't want to be mr. lensky right now, because they're finding another 2nd. because remember what a shank, i tapped the don balance that the guy they wanted. yeah, that's a washing one. that's what one wants and can someone that will do it. ok, the crane has a get slaughtered, but you know, that's the whole point isn't about ukraine. ok. what are shanker? is that once he might do it again? let's see. i think it's suddenly realized he is, he is the sacrificial lamb and all this. and i think that's why i reached out to the brats. sure, sure. i mean, the biggest fear of, of the west obviously is, is bilateral talks and negotiation between kevin moscow that cut out the middle man as it were. what else would you expect with to neighbor? so this is why the trying to basically inflate this as a sort of international crisis in imminent war and imminent invasion by the

russians to make it more of an international for could very easily be di fears. but that's not so simple as we know that the hand of the united states is so far into ukraine right now. and it has been for the last 7 years that i think it's almost inescapable that level of pressure and influence that every ukrainian leader is going to basically ex, experience. it's very difficult situation to decouple the west from, from ukraine on all those different levels. zalinski has an opportunity to do some great things in this situation and for his country and for the region. whether he actually takes that opportunity or not to take a very brave leader to do that. and especially in the fight in politics like himself. but back to the original point that my colleague made maximum is that, you know, the false flag aspect is dangerous, but in the west it will only take is it could be a cyber false flag is a really ramping up the cyber. so what i think would be an easy risk free escapade

which the west loves risk free escapades, especially the u. s. in britain is to have some sort of a cyber incident, blame it on russia, and then throw down the hardest sanctions that you've ever seen. and basically declare this as virtual war, but as love rob said, if they're going to lay down a new raft of sanctions like this, that will be the equivalent from moscow's position of basically a break in a diplomatic relations that serious dots or prelude to actual war or it puts you into a hard cold war setting and nobody wants that to happen, but it seems like that's the direction. things are being pushed. so we'll see. yeah, i mean, let me say i have to agree with tactic. i mean, essentially there's, there's 2 tracks here. and ukraine has turned into a wonderful headache that the in the russians have been generated by western united

states and the u. k. and just constantly boiling, having the grain boiling, or plan being, it wasn't get to a certain point. they just wanted to know russia out of europe altogether. and that's why they're thinking about this all energy situation because that's, that's the weak link in all this week. there are reports that you know, the u. k, in the, in the u. s. or our plan to cobble on energy assets. natural gas primarily from like tar, and other places like completely remake the energy map of europe, which should be very, very costly. probably he wouldn't work. ok, i mean, this is something that is very, very dangerous because, you know, germany is the powerhouse of europe and what the german economy is doing. good. and it's export oriented. an export oriented countries mean a lot of energy. again, you know, the 2 biggest loser isn't this isn't crane in germany. go ahead. well, i think exactly. that's the reason why the buys ministration is now being mad at

hermanson and why the british are also getting that at, at germany. how would behave, and i think for the 2nd time in the last year ever since the germans stood up for the north stream to a pipeline. this is the 2nd time they're trying to demonstrate that they actually do hear a little bit at least about their own strategic sovereignty in the decision making . and are perhaps not willing to jump into this crisis without 1st seeing what russia up to are not willing to flood ukraine with weapons. and we have to give it to the credit germans. the been very careful, unlike many other nations in the west about providing weapons to armed conflict and the, the, the have to, i think a more kind of cautious waiting line here to see what would happen next before you know, running before the train and sweeping sanctions on russia and shutting down the street,

and that is not perhaps the position that the widen ministration expected. they thought, you know, the germany would be great ally in this crisis and would actually take on responsibility for, you know, pioneering the toughest response to russia and will hopefully, you know, the germany here may, may or all of a sudden and perhaps to the many surprise too many here in moscow be more and more cautious than the past. we'll see if they're able to stood up to the all that pressure that's coming from from washington now. and continue on that track. and you know, the finance are also getting mad at germany for not as they think are doing enough before to, to, to jump to there to support you know, i'm not doing enough to help destroy their own country. i, this is a really, we're patrick about 30 seconds last year. i think ultimately this is this gambit that nato is playing out is going to is good, is the part of the demise of nato, which i would regret, obviously. but also the effort to separate right to from mural and in my opinion,

isolating europe go ahead. 20 seconds to you know, and the important point is germany is, is as big a target as anything in this all geopolitical exercise. pulling germany away from russia, making sure germany doesn't face eastward. not only that, but for the belt and road project as well. germany is fits of service. both the east and the west. patrick patrick, again, the cold war mentality is an over the west. keep the russians out, the germans down the americans in or as well. it is still in when i gentlemen, that's all the time we have what i think my guess and limit. and here in moscow and bank are be worth watching us here. are the see an ex family member. ah ah. your channel. i don't know the geography. the nutrition lunch on the nucleus. you

intending? yeah. coming from boshoway shakeelah. hi sherry, i'm wish wish rob lee with me. right? yeah. that it's latoya this summer. moody with she named jose allan and kelly recruiting court and i renewed my for azure night issue of that 1000 with of long didn't get to a lawyer. let me refresh the bus and i must be happy. i could fatima fact not enough that i'm looking to close that little christy asked him. you may actually have to try to push him. um we'll proceed again martha, the money that i can live with

. oh, is your media a reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? or are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? was his faith in the world corrupted. you need to descend. ah, so join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, it's an open secret that private military companies have been playing a role in. i'm complex world wide. u. s. government doesn't track the number of

contractors it uses in places iraq or afghanistan, the united states army. and the military in general is so reliance on the private sector. i would call the dependency, but we don't know who's the on the ground presence of these companies overseas. we just don't out west and private military companies can in their turn use so called some contractors from countries with trouble pass. the chances are quite good that they had also been child diligence. i see i was a chat, as well as my job professional. if he's with me for 141, if i said that with no a choice to be merciless killing machines, now they fight and die in other people's was people carol, lot one and a dead soldier or dead marine shows up in this country. and then we start asking

ourselves, why did they die? why do what were they fighting for? nobody fathers to ask about the contractors in a day to see go, we are standing together with our nato allies against the potential aggression a booty i boris jonas's, attempt to shift attention to ukraine is criticized by lawmakers. then as the prob, into downing street from 2020 lockdown parties, find serious fight is what we're talking. if you, craig know, a threat of a planned invasion has ever come from any russian politician, moscow's envoy to the you. and he's very clear about attempts to escalate the security situation in the region of the news to wait for that thing from anger. the canadian prime ministers reportedly rushed to an evacuation side as you go covert tonight.