so called aggression against ukraine, but alliance members act in differing even contradictory ways. washington in london appeared to want confrontation their allies. not so much. ah . to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, patrick kennings and employment. he is editor and found her a 21st century wire dot com. and here in moscow we have maxine switch, cough he is director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow. state institute of international studies are a gentleman, cross stock rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate. let's start off with patrick in plymouth and i ended my introduction. i think it looks like washington in london are more keen on some kind of confrontation with russia over the, the point of ukraine. and boris johnson is, i'm going to swoop into why europe in, you know,

has his great diplomatic plan that he's a banding about, is he just trying to avoid investigations into a lot of bad parties, or does he really actually have an idea? and then i will, we'll talk a little bit about bad phone calls, patrick, get your take on this pitch fever. they were hearing the boars. johnson was absent without leave on this issue for weeks with so called party gate. meanwhile, the sort of the war effort in the u. k. press and through all these various ministers was going on under the surface. so it's very bizarre situation to say the least. they're sort of late to the party and politically anyway, the u. k, but they're very active, of course, via nato, behind the scenes. so look at the bottom line here is, uh, this is one of the biggest ever sort of virtual build ups to war in history. i mean, this is a propaganda operation. the likes, which has never been undertaken in my and times. and we,

we've seen various types of prob, again, with the war on terror, but not with sort of a conventional war warfare or with a sort of, you know, made to major powers. going out to this level. so this is like new territory. so the question is, what is the objective here for the west and there's a number of a major pieces on the table. obviously there's the geopolitically, you know, the u. s. is wanting to renegotiate just about every sort of major agreement this left over from the cold war era, from various missile agreements that is backed out of but also sort of, you know, defensive arrangements. reciprocal arrangements that were set up by the cold war. russia is very much wanting to abide by those treaties. again, we always recognize in the last 3 years, at russia's acting as a normative power. they're very predictable. the u. s. is acting like an irrational state actor nato is just taken on a completely different take there become an ideological organization. now,

you know, they're no longer a defense. they're much more than just a defense. a lot of just an ideological. let's spread freedom and democracy. this is the new mission of nato. so this is a total break. so it's understandable why russia can't negotiate with these these parties because it's very difficult to know where they're coming from, especially the united states. but we can go into that in a bit. in maxine, let's talk about bad telephone calls. it looks like the president of ukraine zalinski kind of bomb dropped the ball. he's not playing his role in the script here. and as i pointed out of my introduction, you know, you, you have, you know, western countries, you know, like united states like the u. k, pulling out their dependence, you know, from embassies and all that. and then he actually told the truth, at least for a short time, he just said, you know, what's all this panic about, i'm here, i am present, i see what's going on. this is an over and i'm paraphrasing,

of course, is, is he in trouble? i mean, you don't, you don't tell the president of the united states, your patron, that he's wrong. you don't say that to the u. k. another one of your friends, i would think he's on very, very soft ground right now. your take on what's going on between the u. s. and can you bring, will, you know, as they say, you become responsible for forever, for whoever you've tamed. so i think the use of lensky is, is in, and in generally the, this might on revolution in ukraine has been a poster child for, for democracy. whatever a u. s. was thinking of back in 2014 when they were supporting their qu. but i think what's interesting that the lensky is becoming a dark cardinal for her american. the domestic politics, as you know, president trump was eating. each one was a telephone conversation with him. president biden was already in trouble over his

son dealing seeing ukraine, and then it was in the last he was still in office. now, the republicans are threatening to impeach president biden when and if they take over the congress in november, or 70 or so, you know, even though i saw the name tag going around this money, because lensky was, he's becoming kind of a big, big pain in the neck for, for in the u. s. domestic, but the seriousness, i think the situation is very bizarre indeed, because for the what prompted zelinski to talk in public initially was of the i don't know whether it was asleep on the tongue or button me spoke. we're going to spill the beans on the call and called mitre incursion, a brushing ukraine, that what the administration biden said would go and fight over. that in itself was quite an interesting remark. but lensky initially was talking about there are no

minor incursions. there's on the big invasions that we have to care about, and then, you know, biden kind of turns the tables. this will actually, i am talking about the big invasion and the goals. what are you talking about? we don't really see an invasion come. so i do think it's did that the situation is kind of a self inflicted panic and wound, but we should have perhaps seen it come in because this narrative on what may come next and what type of invasion may come have been, you know, going around from different angles, and it's easy for the 2 presidents in vitamins lensky to kind of sleep on their own. banana. yeah, it's interesting, patrick, i mean, who would have thought a comment from a common crane would be in the cross. there's some 2 presidents when telephone couples we went from, there was a perfect telephone call to. it was a bad telephone call. the landscape patrick,

over the last few months. i can remember when it was going to have a meeting with the americans and he was on twitter. we need to be in a tow now. meet on, and now he's beginning to realize the cost of getting into nato is his head. ok, and a good and maybe chunks of his country. i mean, he's the all guy and all this, i think he's begun to finally realize that, okay, we don't know what kind of control he has over as intelligence agencies or the military. patrick, your answer survey lover of illustrated a good point to this to this effect in his response to anthony blink and white paper and nato's white paper. it's good to the passing papers around by the way, right now that's better rather not to be public missiles and bombs. but again, i said, look, you can't, you can't guarantee that the ukrainian military is a unified organization. in other words, there are paramilitary units, or you know, far right paramilitary units, which aren't under the direct control all the time of one single unified apparatus

. so if you look at, when you ramp up tensions and you have a potential for either a false flag or an image, 17 style event or gulf of tonkin type, a miscommunication that might be intentional in fact. but anyway, that aside, it's very dangerous. a situation where you're heightening tensions like this, and u. s. is definitely putting pressure on ukrainian government on zillow and scheming . many people will say that the ukraine government is captured already by the western sphere of influence by the united states. and it's interesting when you listen to tony blanket is very shaky, by the way, very nervous. when he listen to his speech is press conference or the night. he's really only concerned with 2 things. one of them is a stockpile or stocks of weapons. the u. s. is unloading all of their old last year's clothes out stock on the ukraine, and then stockpiles of energy or energy energy supplies. and it's funny that these threatening the rest is saying,

rushes threatening europe with weaponized. if russia weaponized as it gas. and i'll have a dramatic effect on the european consumer and so forth. there's nobody doing more to shut down in train to pipeline than the united states and britain. ok. so i mean, you can't take us seriously in diplomacy when they're making 2 different statements . basically the same speech, i mean it's totally inconsistent, like the level of duplicity is just off the charts. so it's, i can see it being very frustrating for a survey lever off russian diplomatic team to have any kind of meaningful negotiations or to, to know that you're going into negotiations. and the other parties already basically choosing of acting in bad faith before you even come to the table. so basically this diplomacy is finished at that point and what you have is this kind of media war, this bizarre parallel universe. it's been constructed by the u. s. media they've

been brought on the tele click go now in the us media during the rounds, the mayor of kiev, and they're saying vitality, are you going to physically stand up and fight those russians when they come to sac? yeah, i mean, the idea that rush is going to march in sac, he is just fantasy, but this is what passes for like legitimate political discourse. right now in the united states. i mean, is really crazy situation. it's, it's come to right now, you know, mess it was about, i think about a week 10 days ago that the russians maybe planning some kind of who and change of government. yeah. but you know, if you really think about it, i mean, maybe that's exactly what the state department in the, in the brits are thinking themselves because he did it in 2014. they might do it again and then blame someone else. i mean, i wouldn't let it pass these people go ahead man. well, obviously it's hard to, to think rationally when you have this irrational argument on the other side,

i think what's 140, perhaps east of the likely next round of talk, see russia to continue this talks is going to evolve around something that foreign minister leverage mentioned in again, response to white papers. when, you know, basically the state department said that they're not going to discuss the future of need to when you cranes, potential accession tinita, which everyone knows is not going to happen at least anytime soon. and the response is suggested that russia is going to spin this issue around the concept of quote unquote, undivided security in europe and lateral who is referring to the 2 important papers that i think the rational part is going to put on the table. that is a stumble declaration of 999 in austin, a declaration of 2010 that endorsed this concept. if i divided security and no

security of any country in europe could be achieved via security of other states. and i think that that is the substantial conversation and it's better for all the parties to, to go to talk about the i can jump in there. i mean, this is something that the russians have brought up before. when nelson berg the general secretary of nato, he just want addressing. i mean, this is again, one of the most frustrating things here is that the russians presented to papers. essentially, what would become treaties? lincoln just that won't react to ok, the self and burns as if, you know, the, the whole universe revolves around nato, is rules, which is so bizarre. i mean, i'm not in a ghost. why should i buy and care about its rules? now? you're right, and this is a good point. nato is open door policy that seen as sacrosanct. this is basically become akin to in terms of the west and nato members. this is equal to internet, so law in their eyes, but they all got a heart breaking up about our break will continue our discussion on some real

estate 30. ah ah, ah . it's an open secret that private military companies have been playing a role in om complex world wide. u. s. government doesn't track a number of contractors and uses in places iraq or afghanistan,

united states army and the military in general is so reliance on the private sector . i would call the dependency, but we don't know who's the on the ground presence of these companies overseas. we just don't out west and private military companies can in their turn, use so called subcontractors from countries with trouble past the chances i quite good that they had also been child diligence. i was a child. i was a, as in my job professional joe. if he's with the full one foot good. if i said that with no, no minimum own la, joined to be merciless killing machines. now they fight and die in other people's was people carol, lot one and a dead soldier or dead marine shows up in this country. do we start asking yourself, why did they die? why do what were they fighting for?

nobody bothers down to about that contractor's back either via survival guide, a federal reserve issue. so there are you, don't forget about it. oh, heck, no. what is a recreation game where we get the right to 7 years a year? what kinds of report ah ah, welcome at to cross that we're all things are consider 9. peter labelle. this is the home edition remind you were discussing some real news. ah.

okay, go back to patrick and clement, we had to go to a short break there. go ahead and please then finish up. you thought, no, this, this idea that a nato policy open door policy in this case is somehow sort of equal in sort of weight to international law. this is the argument that's being put forward by nato country. so how did this happen? this has been sort of drifted out gradually over the last few years. you can see it in the rhetoric is becoming more political, more ideology. yonce dalton burgess is, is becoming sort of more of a political, a figure than sorta director general of any military alliance of nato's desperate for relevance in the world. and this is one of the reasons why this crisis is being ramped up. i believe there's also an economic piece on the back end of that. of course, that's the arm sales. it's the military, industrial market. ok. but beyond that, they're also very scared. you know, they're very close. they know that they're losing or have lost the don bass. ok,

creamy has gone. everybody knows that john mearsheimer said that in 2014, nobody got the and memo in washington for sure. but the dumbass is gone. so this is a very difficult and they want revenge for crimea. okay. they're going to keep sanctions on. they're gonna sabotaged the normandy format and tried to make sure the minks accordingly are never realised. this is also a major objective of the west. so they're really in a difficult situation. and again, it's a, it's a situation that they're making now did the, my don qu mostly peaceful protesters in, in 2014 that, and also the denial of history. the fact that the west has always been interested in the stabilizing or grooming of certain fractions. in western ukraine, in this region, since the end of the 2nd world war, you'll never hear any of these 2 points. the crew in 2014 and the history of the region, you'll never hear this address in context ever by any u. s. media politician or think tank pundents re ok, and this is,

this is the reason why there's a major disconnect here in terms of discussions and diplomacy. maxine went to eat with brought up the dumbass. right. i think this is where it's really key to it all because i think them and if there are thinking people in care in washington and london, they know that the dumbass is lost. i mean, he can stay inside ukraine's borders, but it will have never had cable never have direct control over it again. i mean, the camp government, you know, is killed 14000 people there. i mean, i wouldn't trust them governing the dumbass again when see that's the key to at all is that somehow get a provocation for the russians to do some kind of kinetic action regarding dumbass, they care regime already knows it's gone. that's how you look at the men, that's the trap, and we're going to attack, we've been attacked. ok. and then, you know, don basses are pros and cons like it has

a different status. and then on the same thing, you know, some kind of skirmish around by me and i ended up in defeat and then they say, well, ok, our reward now is to get it into nature. because we, we, we had to fight off an aggressor week when we were too small. we were doing the fact that we didn't have enough allied support. and then there are candidates, he becomes a lot more viable. does that make any sense? the maps it does make a lot of sense to me and i think in that context of overflowing of ukraine with weapons. and then some of the private military tracker from the west is very worrisome in this respect the assessments that we in moscow here from, from, from the united states are that you know, since there are no security guarantees to nita would then kind of formal nato framework we the americans in the british and others have to show some support to the ukrainians that are doing so by supply of weapons and then things like this. i

think we're also in other problem is that we're still are not secure from the what i would call the soft gosh, really syndrome. you know, it may not necessarily come from his left. he can self but as, as patrick and many other analysts pointed out already that there are tons of actors, destructive accuracy in ukraine and that leverage for alluded to that are interested in peter when all these talk over the, over the over don bosco, between russia and the us and others, and would be happy to use the weapons that are supply to them to stage a provocation. and, you know, create a pretext and the causes bella, for the, you know, russian response and things i guess. and that will then ask a lead to an unintended war that no party really seems to be wishing for, because there are seriously no, no consequences, no consequences that you can predict at this point. but i think we've also seen

that the past that wester states while having the a do not have a b, as for it was, it comes on ukraine policy. really interesting, patrick. a. not so long but forgotten. bass a reappeared in the british press is shameka. he's back or you know, he's back from his trip. from over the new years he was in poland and wrapping turkey. and he right back there was an arrest warrant for him. he showed up duly at the prosecutor office. and then apparently what i'm told is that the western embassies and camps have been you know, let them out. i mean, pressure was the by, this is what i'm told here. and all of a sudden, you know, has been, is, gets big headlines. i mean, again, you know, they, the soft gosh, really a back. i wouldn't want to be mr. zalinski right now, because they're finding another say, again, because remember what a shame i tapped the don balance. that's the guy they wanted. yeah,

that's watching the one that's 11 once and can someone that will do it? ok, do you crane has a get slaughtered, but you know, that's the whole point isn't about ukraine. ok. what is that once he might do it again? lindsay, i think that suddenly realize he is, he is the sacrificial lamb and all this. and i think that's why i reached out to the brats. sure, sure. i mean, the biggest fear of, of the west obviously is, is bilateral talks and negotiation between kevin moscow that they cut out the middleman as it were you what, what else would you expect with to neighbor? so this is why the trying to basically inflate this as a sort of international crisis as an imminent war and imminent invasion by the russians to make it more of an international for could very easily be di fears. but that's not so simple as we know that the hand of the united states is so far into ukraine right now. and it has been for the last 7 years that i think it's almost

inescapable that level of pressure and influence that every ukrainian leader is going to basically ex, experience. it's very difficult situation to decouple the west from, from ukraine on all those different levels. zalinski has an opportunity to do some great things in this situation and for his country and for the region, whether he actually takes that opportunity or not, you know, take a very brave leader to do that. and especially in the a fight in politics like himself. but back to the original point that my colleague here made maxim is that, you know, the false flag aspect is dangerous, but in the west it will only take is it could be a cyber false flag is a really ramping up the cyber threat. so what i think would be an easy risk free escapade which the west loves risk free escapades, especially the u. s. in britain is to have some sort of a cyber incident, blame it on russia, and then throw down the hardest sanctions that you've ever seen. and basically

declare this as virtual war, but as love rob said, if they're going to lay down a new raft of sanctions like this, that will be the equivalent from moscow's position of basically a break and in diplomatic relations. that serious, that's a prelude to actual war or put you into a hard cold war setting and nobody wants that to happen, but it seems like that's the direction. things are being pushed. so we'll see. yeah, i mean, that might seem, i mean, i have to agree with tactic. i mean, it's actually there's, there's 2 tracks here. the ukraine is turned into a wonderful headache that the in the russians have been generated by western united states in the u. k. and just constantly boiling, having the grain boiling, or plan being, it wasn't get to a certain point. they just wanted to know russia out of europe altogether. and that's why they're thinking about this all energy situation, because that's, that's the weak link and all this week, there are reports that you know,

the u. k. in the, in the us or are find a couple of energy assets. natural gas primarily from like tar in other places like completely remake the energy map of europe, which should be very, very costly problem. he wouldn't work. ok. i mean, this is something that is very, very dangerous because, you know, germany is the power house of europe. i mean, what the german economy isn't doing good and it's export oriented. an export oriented countries mean a lot of energy. again, you know, the biggest losers on this is crane in germany. go ahead. well, i think exactly. that's the reason why the wide ministration is now being mad at the germans and on the way the british are also getting that at germany. i would behave and i think for the 2nd time in the last year ever since the germans stood up for the north stream to a pipeline. this is the 2nd time they're trying to demonstrate that they actually

do hear a little bit at least about their own strategic sovereignty in the decision making . and are perhaps not willing to jump into this crisis without 1st seeing what russia up to are not willing to flood ukraine with weapons. and we have to give it to the credit germans. the been very careful, unlike many other nations in the west about providing weapons to armed conflict and the, the, the have to, i think and, and a more kind of cautious waiting line here to see what happened next before, you know, running before the train and we can sanctions on russia and shut them down the north stream, and that is not perhaps the position that the widen ministration expected. they thought, you know, the germany would be great ally in this crisis and would actually take on responsibility for, you know, pioneering the toughest response to russia and will hopefully, you know,

the germany here may, may all of a sudden and perhaps to the many surprise too many here in moscow be more more cautious than the past. we'll see if they're able to stood up to the all that pressure that that's coming from from washington now and continue on the track. and the paintings are also getting mad at germany for not as they think are doing enough before to to, to jump to there, to support. i'm not doing enough to help destroy their own country. this is a really win patrick about 30 seconds left here. i think ultimately this is this gambit that nato is a playing out is good. it's good. it is a part of the demise of nato, which i wouldn't regret, obviously. but also, the effort to separate right to from europe will end up in my opinion, isolating europe go ahead. 20 seconds to, you know, and, and the important point is germany is, is as big a target as anything in this whole geopolitical exercise, pulling germany away from russia, making sure germany doesn't face eastward,

not only that, but for the belt and road project as well. germany is fit to service both the east and the west. patrick patrick, again, the cold war mentality is an over the west. keep the russians out, the germans down the americans, and that's what it is still in one gentleman, that's all the time we have want to think, my guess and i'm and here in moscow bank are be worth watching us here. are the see next time. remember? oh you're chatting with them from gotcha. she can. hi sharon, this way with

she been close. i'm online in color coding quote, and i renewed my for my tissue that thousands of long didn't get to. i learned that refreshing the bus and how much he i had a family, you know, if that i'm looking for a family with myakea protection for him. um with every country in the world will eventually make big coin legal, tender. the only difference will be at what price we have el salvador, making the move in the $30000.00 to $40000.00 range in the united states that may wait for until 251015 1000000 coin before they finally wake up

a day. this is because we all standing together with our nato allies against the potential aggression a brute force johnson was attempted to shift attention to ukraine is criticized by lawmakers as the proven to downing street influence 2020 lockdown party. find serious failure in staying with ukraine. no threat of append invasion has ever come from any russian politician. moscow's envoy to the un is clear about attempts to escalate the security situation in the region. of those prime minister tries to slag off an escalating protest movement as a mob of races who steal through it from the.