lester safely in only 2006 noble prize in literature, it's really great to have you with us once again. 12 years later, great pleasure height. i am also very happy to address my direction reader. so i just got my copy out basically 2 days ago, and i'm like, deep into this book. most of the russian readers are gonna get it this week. so it's like a huge thing. let's dive right into this. ok. latest novel that came out in russia knights of plague in is amount of plague outbreak on a fictional, ottoman island. and, you know, using sang and interviews that you pondered on this novel for 40 years new to, for years to write it. no pandemic was inside back then, and yet you chose this topic for your book and you sort of hick, the bull's eye with it. isn't a coincidence or did you see clinical incidence? but i am in my mind, is busy with the subject of play for the last 40 years. in my earlier books in

silent house, there is a historian whose researching it historical ottoman, played on in my right castle. they shorter book and other historical novel that are the scenes of plague in a stumble. i've been thinking about a plague for 40 years because it, at the beginning i thought this is such an opportunity to talk about this. then i change my mind, it wasn't a po for another 20 years. what was a report and to think about, to write about to explore them that western perception of my part of the world or young list that they use. the visitors to stumble in 165717 century would drive about the turks or all for missouri, moslems as fatalist that people who don't care about kind of deny would only believe in god. and since our faith is written over our heads, if they don't do anything, they do not run away from blake. but later,

the last 10 years, i taught the subject all in positions off. currently not people say no, i don't want to do it. i don't want to do it. i don't want to go in, i don't, you know, and that political conclusions, political consequences or resistance to guarantee that this is the subject of night thought play that is just published in russia. i choose that subject and it's of course, coincidence. i was writing this novel for the last 5 years. suddenly in the 4th year there was this immense and other panoramic. there are differences though, that it would plague kills one in tree, one in tree dimes, in 1655 long milan stumbled flakes one and 3 died while as be all no quarter, no wires kills 100 and even lesser. so you're saying it was a kind of a what a coincidence, you know what they say, the smart people, that even the things we've seen, we haven't plan,

we've planted somewhere somewhere in our past, in our, in our unconscious. so you wrote it for 4 years now. he had time to observe it in full swing and i'm sure you have your observations. some people say, you know, people became kinder and when became more empathic, i'm there say, oh, i got no we, we didn't learn anything like this. condemn it. didn't change is a bit. it changed me a great. what about you? do you think i can teach the same thing or humanity is hopeless? well, of course we are changed when we face an earthquake, a war, or to pandemic him. we definitely che, i don't think he's not. human beings have one. her one strong character. i thing a via are characters continuously change. i am a writer. i also teacher, i think that the 1st thing i teach the students when they're writing fiction, a your character at the beginning of the novel. it has a character,

a and at the end of the novel, it she should or she has have a character b and the event writing and all is organizing the events or the story in such a way that the character changes. the girl grows up, the boy was the war and soul sees how horrible life is. and when you're faced with plague, our lesser with wires, your scare you low, should saudi diety, you learn criticized the government. but you also need the government's help, so forth. and so on. there's so much of learning education when faced with an earthquake, i have also leave earth. you also see that fragility of human life. bear dear like insects that we can't deny it any more. you also learn about solidarity making m m, making groups, respecting others,

rights for yours are to be video, go stickle, you just save on on your own life. there are many, many reactions. i can say that we can leave. human beings have always the same responses. we also change, but single human beings, when faced with a catastrophe, like corner wires or even deeper play, of course we are to chain. we learn 1st of all, the learn how beautiful life is, how beautiful it is to be alive. that, that's why i wanted to write a novel about plague, because that teaches us the beauties of life. i am not always a negative writer. i also care about like tosto, like mobil picking up beautiful details about life and making and making my novel, beautiful, believable, con wincy. absolutely. if i may add from my humble opinion, your nose in many senses are also what celebrating life. yeah,

so if we look at the larger scale of things, not how it changed us individually because of course it changed me, changed you because this, you know, 32 years is a big period of time for one person's life. but do you think are in a virus is gonna really change the course of things on a larger scale because you have so many like parallels of pass plagues in your book . but if you will look at it now, 100 years later, we haven't really changed. i mean, humans are fighting the worst that we're fighting before with planning for a piece of bread with planning for oil resources. lemme, lemme do you really think corano has been a change thing in the large scale? where look if the s corps and i've been a change in human character a bit when you face it. and unfortunately, what i seen from other books, other studies i read so much or to write this novel that things change to verse when there is such an image, i'm talking about epidemic, not earth. why?

because human beings in history also showed us or the 1st reactions are always the same. the government denies it than that i rumors. and then people do the lies that they don't want to die. they want to run away. or they want to get organized almost for when new government and in fact, my novel is about making of a new state. it is a sort of a reaction for plague mike, the plague that i described in my novel is the plague of 1897. that started in some say in hong kong and spread to all asia. most interesting thing. some 20000000 people were killed in asia, but very few people in west that was one of the reasons that attract could me to this subject. why were asians are dying like it's like birds and why nothing

happened in best? of course, the answer is very simple because they were respecting a bit to learn restrictions of cantina and the western governments were more determined to impose cantina in the end. they organize human reaction to when it be they mix, whether it's called era a red or its yellow fever, whether it, whether it's play or corner know why this is always the same, but each concrete situations a different part in this or that way. it's really interesting because this correlation of state and people and how they interact during pandemic is also the most interesting thing to encourage virus. we've seen that, you know, many governments where just at last not because they're bad government, they just didn't know how to react. you know, it's the 1st time they kind of thing. i. yes. and then people will have to pull

themselves to sort of stand for themselves and it's the 3rd year now and there's this fatigue and it's still not ending. what do you think as a big visionary, that person needs not a state, but a person needs in himself to pull through this pandemic to, to get to the end. ok, then i can give you advice if your government is bad and he's not taking my name is not imposing quite a time strongly. if your government cares and has put ballistic policies, saw that business is not shot, then save your own life. be an egg voice, but if you're organized and the government is taking the necessary require i'm time restrictions then follow, then that is not one single solution. but one thing i have learned from reading and thinking for many years or for 40 years about this subject is humanity always wants

the impossible they 1st day say to the government, please father you government b. they say simultaneously on please don't touch my, my pride with my phone touch my business don't touch my free them. and this is an impossible contradiction. and all the media, all the newspapers are him making, generating interest because of this contradiction, there's environment is not going enough. government is closing business where you can do it suits gainey, is that you asked to close the business. you have to list 3 freedoms. but once you begin to restrict freedoms, then a sort of an alternative to an undemocratic patel, italian government begins to grow up. so these are my subjects in a way in might so blake, mr. pamela, we're going to take a short break right now. we're back. we'll continue talking to best selling writer,

noble prize winner or handbook you know, want to miss to stay with, [000:00:00;00] with a directly re sell, advertise as content to us, and decide who sees what content when, and how much of it. facebook claims these algorithms this other to learn about our specific preferences. actually this is untrue then shaping preference. if tomorrow the person finds a fake pull the video, we're saying the flat,

then this content ranks. huh. at least 20 percent or maybe even 40 percent would be that is true is a very dangerous thing with and were back with noble prize winner or hunt. i'm old. mister pembroke, you know, during any plate because fate pretty much is like a war like corn. a virus is like invisible 3rd world war right now. all aspects of human nature come on surface, bad and good in your observe ations. and we can parallel your book as well. what

are the aspects of a human nature that this pandemic has brought on surface? of course again, that when we are face v that disaster, if pyar do you want to say go or your own life, or do you want to save the life of your neighbors that am an earthquake? do you want to save yourself or your family? and i and it play comes and you have it. you have to run away from your family, but people don't do it. it is. that is why i, for 40 years, i wanted to write this novel because it shows the tragic situation of humanity between helping others and say enjoying it would life or saving your life. sometimes a voice survive. sometimes when people is survive. so there is not much meaning in this kind of about general generalization in this kind of

situation. of course, i believe in solely that in understanding the job, my ethical way aim is to teach my readers 1st enjoy the novel enjoyed how about the heart that suffering of the people in a way in a historical now enjoy the details of imposition of contina during the last years of ottoman empire, when, in fact, russian saw co ottoman empire, the sick people of a sick person of europe. this is what they teach us, even in turkish. i school books because therapy should be public high school books, looked down upon the ottoman empire and called to the russian, saying that all the ones were to seek people off to westmark by caught up by policy disintegrating. and this now will, is indiana also

a political novel about the disintegration of ottoman empire. the today, turks are very proud to have the ultimate empire. i just want to remind them of that, look, the empire, if you were approvals disintegrated in such a sad way. it's a story of decline and all 2 months over rule, all bo county, middle east iraq, we today called grady or whatever the middle east that they lost. you know, how did it happen? how did they these guys who were running, damn, what did they think of all this? these are also this side subjects. the other subjects, the rise of nationalism at the end of an empire when the empire is collapsing, every want to say, well actually i'm not an auto mom. i am this, i'm started me and i am bo gary and i am great. i am a syrian, i am at all times lost all this hub in

a way i'm in my sentiments are close to or 2 months here. you know, i live in the stumble, my family lived in the summer of did it feed, and i'm against ever putting on ottoman system on a pedestal. i just wanted to see clearly, and i'm critical of auto moneys in view our to getting from the government from air go on. i believe turkey should be secular and look for its future in europe. it rings the bell and it hits home when you say about the ottoman empire because a lot of people. busy and possibly it territory is still the same about the, the, the collapse of the soviet union. i mean, they wanted to collapse. they wanted to, does integrated now that it's gone, there's a sense of, oh, we lost somebody. yeah, maybe it wasn't that bad after all. and you brought out by saying that, you know, my know little is about enjoying but enjoying other people's pain. but what i found

remarkable and also a lot of parallels with what's going on. reading your novel, is it how pain and suffering it exists with regular life? it's crazy, right? i mean there's the plague. it's rating the city people are dying because that person is left for life. just goes on and nothing is happening. and it same here. jane coroner virus, i mean people are dying. i have seen before noticing that yes, that, that your, your neighbor can be dying will be suffering. and but you think if i want to be a good person, why don't i only save my family? i like my children and my why so much that i don't care or. and one thing if we can bear the previous funding mix, whether it's protocol that out there or a plague, that at all times, even before the beginning of 20th century humanity was not educated, is that is it is now. now, not only do, let's say in turkey at that time,

only 5 percent on the wanting 20 knew how to read and write and would never understand what the micro while today. people understand also people look at the map and sir, and don't understand used to log on the said anything while we are educated, we see on every night a t v. what's happening in the world. and that is relatively speaking. that's why we are scared in a more exaggerated way. why do you think people many times choose to stay ignorant with here? what we don't understand and certainly is one of the most difficult tests for human human side to get in nights of playing with the people who are ignorant of this disease. and they suffer of that. but on the other hand, they oppose knowledge in every possible way and prefer to stay ignorant. and that's a paradox because i see so much of that today as well. yes, that's today sick this some clothes, some called it, for example,

trump and abuse dismissal for mation that these are the problems of twitter, facebook and old is popular or media that there is a lot of safety information. if you ask me for me, van eb, my ethical question is, i have to ask this question. if i think that i know it right, i should ask this question at both as a novelist and as a person, why do they choose to believe in lines? what makes them, what forces them to believe in lie? well, wow, there's so many reasons you know. i also teach at columbia university, new york, say a conservative family sense. he's fun to columbia. and all the professors are liberals left us and they teach there's oh and then he comes back and he hates his

son and wants to situation to change and things. this is because of democrats all these idiots. so in the end, if this guy is not been educated, wants to be what we call false information one most to walk for trump. the, my professor friends at columbia, all hate trump. okay. but then yes, i also don't like trump, but why do people walk for here? this never answered, half of the country. what do you think? the fact that people are much more informed now rather than 100 years ago during that plague make us stronger or does it make us more vulnerable? it makes us stronger, not, not less vulnerable in physically, but it makes us want little spiritually because we see people die. we see photographs of huge cemetery burning bodies in india. trucks are passing

in from italy. when we see these things, we are scared. this is too much information perhaps, or we are happy. there's information. and then i think this is the main important sentiment that i write about. if you were to create a museum of this pandemic, what would it look like? well, the inside, i am a strange guy in a way. i'm keeping the old used mask. i'm sure this will pass and i was told good people, hey, i please heard that you know, this happen. don't forget all the epidemic. deadly epidemics in human history, in the end, as their way dis, will also pass it will, i'm sure about that. but, but it stays, it stayed longer than we expected. the stumble playbook is

6055 took 2 years, 2 summers long on the same. so it, they always takes longer than we reach. god, please stop it. it, it stops but more longer. after a more time, more people died than read expect. but in the end it passes away, then it vanishes. no one wants to remember it, except those who kept their masks a talk about museums in your museum of innocence. you have the start that, you know, we're really only capable of feeling how happy we were pondering about the past. but we were never happy in the moment to questions here and answer them as you wish . why is that? so does it mean that we're only capable to be happy in our memories and our present life? and do you think once this pandemic passes, we can look back and, you know, maybe thing that actually was a happy time,

somewhat scary. i don't think we will do that. i don't see humanity will go back to me and said that it was a beautiful time. maybe that was a beautiful time for people who are indoors and who said, wow, i always wanted to read my book. this book that book now am or home and being paid by the government and doing nothing and reading books. that's great. maybe there are people like that. but you're saying about it, not that humanities, capacity not to live in this moment. in fact, you are echoing what n kierkegaard danish philosopher once said to him. unhappy person was the person who either lived in the past or in the future cannot enjoy prism. we are talking up making generalizations about humanity. i went and explore this subject

a lot in knights of play. some of my characters cannot, can they dream? they think that they want to exclaim, some of them enjoy moments of b, even in the times of horrible, deadly pandemic. we cannot generalize, but he is of if you ask me, i am also a not very happy person. i either or i to live in the past or right historical mom or think about the future. but on the other end, what saves me from intense unhappiness is i have the capacity to write share, my fantasies, put them readers, put them in a format off of the novel and explain this novel especially this one, the right thing. this whole thing im immersing by myself spiritually in which my characters departure or their salt of voter or the doctor's

hoover. touching the dead people who are dying. that the mouse who we're burying or the or the orthodox priests. hoover busy in one our streets. i wrote all about that and, and for me, identifying my characters and writing about and thinking about that gave me a sort of capacity. i ran away from my fears because i wrote about, i want to wrap up with sas out of universality because you speak a lot about that you say that, you know, you driven when you write in a hope to, to bring out the humanities, you know, for salad, what is a universal experience to you? because, i mean, is that for a novel is changed in my mind, which is about 4 people and shanty towns, poor people in a stumble,

development of shanty houses. if people immigrating from poor places of anatolia or turkey to stumble, so it's about a poor street seller selling things. but in order to be able to write, in order to grab the what i call what you call universal side to it. i went to 5 a lot of rio de janeiro in brazil, and i also went to harvey that shanty town of bomb bay. and i looked, and i told before writing or as i wrote the novel, my story should address these people because they have common themes. and they also different in their own way. 35 else are more comfortable or more upper class i. but in india, you see that they developed from the poor house to a business in brazil, it's crime and disorder that they are older and similar, if you care about universal out salad,

you do this kind of comparing in your mind and then right that your novel after that, i wrote that might play with that spirit thinking that we all fear in a different way, but there is something to come on to all of us. mr. frank. thank you so much for this. wonderful. i enjoyed a book. thank you. stay safe. thank you ah ah, is your media a reflection of reality?

ah, in a world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, and i make no, no borders, to tease and you as emerge, we don't have with the we don't to look back. see the whole world needs to take

action to be ready. people are judgment. 2 common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is going to response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we're in it together with this is all smart city, is a city that using technology to make people's life easier to happier, collecting a lot of data to try to improve the way things are in theory, these big organizations that are now the meeting and pulling all that data together

. they're not looking at yours and individual, necessarily lose data, the link to you so much data that there's a real possibility of privacy violation. and that's something most of us wouldn't want to world transparent to prove that we must live with permanent surveillance with 6 children are killed amid heavy fighting in northwest syria. president biden hale, the skill and bravery of u. s. commanders claiming they killed the leader of islamic state at the same time in the same note here. just come out and say this expect us just to do to believe it without you showing a shred of evidence, that is actually true usa department spokespersons grill by journalists after refusing to provide any evidence for us claims. russia is preparing a false flag attack as

a pretext to the invasion of the crate. that's where western media take aim of