by which he is a professor of international human rights law and author of the plaster skate vote russia. and here in barstow we have to meet resume off. he is deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school of economics regional in cross up rules. and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciated again, go to ottawa upon, i'm sure you came across the exchange that ned price had with her matt lee of the associated press. and that's why i entered my introduction about heightened wall propaganda. because it was truly an extraordinary media experience. where here, 1st of all, you have to believe me. second of all, if you doubt us intelligence and british halogens than you're somehow a stooge for the kremlin. i mean, is this where we have gotten to because there's, there's no evidence of anything we're waiting for godot, we're waiting for an eminent invasion. this has been going on since november and all the while we'll talk later in the program,

is that the quote unquote unity that nato keeps talking about simply doesn't exist . go ahead, paul. yes, it was, it was a good exchange. of course mattie has done this before, he used to do the same thing to jackie when she was looking at the state department back in 242015 and ran rings around on many occasions. but you have to write, but the problem with, oh, visa intelligence leaks and statement says that there is a lack of supporting evidence and we are being told to take turns on trust and know perhaps, or in my youth. when i was myself as a member of the intelligence community and you can, i would have done so, but we've seen unfortunately on altogether too many incidents and which these claims that turned out at work to be untrue and best to be prepared, young verifiable. and therefore, be very foolish of anybody to take them entirely on trust at this point. so annette price says, you know, if you don't believe us, you can take the news from the russians or something, i think not seen a very disingenuous. he must surely understand. but there is a, there is

a lack of trust, you know, falling on from a rocky w. and the fact that, you know, russia has been imminently comparing to invade ukraine now for 100 days without doing so. but people are going to be a little skeptical, and i think that's all that all viewers should, should. i wouldn't say, you know, dismiss everything better. be a state department, a u. s. government, somebody was unsure, but nonetheless, if they don't provide supporting evidence, treated like a degree of skepticism. dmitri, let me go to you. i mean, it rushes, the subject of so much of this commentary and, and i find it really, may i always look at it as a, an enormous amount of patients here. because so many things that are said are just absolutely absurd, waiting for an invasion that russia has over and over again. that is not in the cards. and what this, what this quote unquote imminent invasion is, is a dodge because rush, the patients keep saying, i'm wrong. on december 17th,

they send 2 letters, one to the nato. i want to be united states and the russians, if they do, we about these 2 letters. it's not talk about, it's not about ukraine. and that is discursive direction. that western media and western governments, and particularly nature want to focus on. it's not about you think it creates a symptom of the problem. and this is the information war that is very hard to fight because they, if you're interlocutor is not going to react to you. how do you, how do you control the narrative? it's impossible. you're talking it parallels, go ahead metering. well 1st i fully agree with you. i think that the west tries to diverse, the agenda tries to focus on green instead of discussing the fundamental issues. so the rational concerns on the european security, and this is done deliberately in order to divert attention from the core issues. the process tries to put on the table, namely nato enlargement. and secondly,

it is done in order to delete the minds of the russian demands about the security. get on this because the russian security guarantees demands based on the premise, the nato enlarges to the awesome borders, thus creating threats, thus, creating challenges for russia. russia wants to build that. so from the russian perspective, nate, to expand it, is revising a distribution list and rational wants to store that expansion. whereas, if you present the situation as the muslim russian innovation in the ukraine, then you put everything off site. though, from this perspective, russia expansion list congress, which tries to convey ukraine which conducts a revision of this for foreign policy. whereas natal is at the defensive and try to prevent this process of nation, so it's absolutely everything upside down,

but it done. it is done. so at the delivery of a day, one of the things i find very peculiar, if not very frustrating, is that this is all, i'm in the garb of protecting democracy. well, grants democracy's pretty dodgy at best. and again, in the western narrative about russian aggression, russian and pending aggression, russian expansion is want to rebuild the soviet union. all this nonsense here. it's never noted in the narrative that in, in february of 2014 the united states. and it's a forced me over through the democratically elected government in ukraine that is never mentioned. so it's about democracy then why did western powers overthrow and democracy in ukraine? and by the way, the person that was behind that was victoria new and, and she's back in our, in

a bind administrative go ahead. yes. yes. and we know from telephone record a telephone calls that she was quarterbacking to coo and quarterbacking. it was going to take over, it was going to be in the new government who was not going to be. and of course, again, according to her, the cia is spent billions of dollars on a supporting making sure that the people we want power are in power in ukraine. but also if you talk about democracy, we have to talk about the don bass region as well according to the mens agreements which the un security council with the united states approved re um those that region has a right to some self autonomy. right. and an a kia has not honored that part of the agreement. and of course, this bothers russia legitimately. and 1st of all, that's an interest of democracy. the u. s. decides which countries it's going to

balkanized in which, you know, small parts of countries. it's going to recognize that here the world said, you know, a jeanette skin in lieu hans has a right to some self autonomy. there should be elections there. ultimately, if they want to have a territorial, a certain amount of, of, of self rule they should have that in the us just ignores that. now, in order this makes it worse, is that because government sign back russians, not of signet or of that agreement, was a government that said that that they would implement them and they haven't got it . let me go back to ball in ottawa, i think there's a silver lining to this, these tensions here. paul, is that because if you look at the nato response to the russian letter was boiler plate, it was worthless, it was, had nothing of value to it, but the american one actually had some trimmings there that you can to on is that

there is essentially a recognition that yes indeed, russia has some security of interest and it has to your political interest as well . i mean, you know, is that there was a defensive alliance and that's on speed dial. ok. but this letter actually was saying, yeah, you kind of got a point though, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to actually act upon it. but there is a recognition here and i think that's actually a plus for the right hand side. during all the spitters i had, mom might be more of a recognition of out of washington and then the car later. the problem is that nato has to operate on the grounds of consensus, which essentially means it's going to go down to the lowest common denominator. and therefore, a lot of the agenda is going to be driven ready by 24 states and back it states proteins in salt lake by actually end up having quite a strong influence on the overall outcome of out of 10 which comes out later.

because a position has to be consolidated with any, any documents. whereas on a, russia has clearly decided that it can do much more bind actually with the united states and it can do operating for nato or european union. so i really, i think, trying to speak tonight has pretty much that and you may be right, that may be a possibility of some small incremental progress through talks of united states. so best of us having left b i n f treaty is now. so talking about re introducing it. yep. which, which is, which is i plus on the russian point of view. these things, of course, don't meet the much larger demands. russian federation was making person. i think those demands are unrealistic. i'm not entirely sure why they, why they were made, because america is never going to agree to them. but the money might be some agreement on small things. i need to buy step. but putting it on the agenda. i

think it was a wise thing to do. look in the go haitian, you never get everything you want. so, i mean, that was a dmitri or you're not in your head there. i mean, i think this is part of the game, but here, i mean, you won't listen to our demand. so we're going to make ours public. we're going to send, we will let the whole world know that this is what our concerns are. i think they have made some progress. that doesn't mean it will succeed. dimitry. well, i think that there was some absolute us demands made there for the sake of negotiations, but i think it's extremely important to make it clear that the prospect considers natal nolan lodgement and the cancellation of the very prospect, or even hypothetical prospect your brain in georgia joining nato as a real law. there's an absolute this on demand for the sake of negotiations. but as a very real and real list, the mom i am from the russian perspective,

it is possible, you know, never say never, it is possible for this demand to be addressed and fulfilled by the united states. because again, from the national perspective, the statement which was included into the response documents from the united states and nato. that some principles of nathan agreed principles of european security keep it may go wrong. um, stating the closed board policy that be great in the georgia flow, that this is, this is a trick. this is a 3 can play broker. so because there is nothing either in the nato, java, in the nato 3 or in the parish chapel, new euro, which come pals and obliges nato to include all the guy that wants to join, make them right. it is awful. they are lions to make decisions which confident,

which inspires to join nato. a joyous is able to join him and which ones, which is which mobile. so on the russian perspective, when they go claims that you cannot simply can more exclude the prospect of your grade in georgia, joining nato in the future. it means simply that the alliance uses a breaking up short break. well, your discussion on some real estate with mark ah, ah, with i'm isn't showing in this the world's most over fish. see unsustainable exploitation of its fish dogs,

which maureen biodiversity under great thread issue medicine is the lesson the given a quote on sure you understand the system you cut our system. i'm not going to pull nicky, careful with tech and want to put our lives despite the ease. promise is to end over fishing by 2020. the situation is changing to slow. well, i'm very disappointed with attrition that they've basically not in public interest. they also do know in the interest of the fishes, the only interest of the fishery lobby and the facial and the only ones in danger. the fishermen also at risk of losing a lot of them, but they get it on the bottom of the bubble. thought i get them with liberty viewership with

what happened? i make no certainly no borders, to tease and you as a merge, we don't have a charity, we don't have a vaccine. the whole world leads to take action and be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we're in it together with

oh, so many defensive pipes. oh, such a softer sense rod swiss not quite right. trying to make those old inactive tooth in visceral. talk to him up with an idea of using kind of on buddy about developing and by necessarily fall fiery after a welcome back. across up were all things are considered. i'm peter little. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some realtors. ah story gentlemen. i want to read a quote from a politician of the last few days. the quote is the geopolitical objective of russia today is clearly not ukraine,

but to clarify the rules of cohabitation with nato in the e. u. we don't have any buzzers, genuine, but it's jeremy chancellor. no. note nadia. demi trade camera kissinger la chrome in many well ma chrome. i was thinking wow edelman, isn't it? interesting? it sounds like he's speaking. cram one, talking points here to meet her. you're laughing. why? well, i think that micro on the right of the stage. yeah, i can do that to. i'm using it as multiple if you grade, this is the fundamental issues of principles of rules or european security. ok. but, you know, it's important to understand the macro now wants to make something your wants to deliver something. because your faces election 1st and 2nd live before you positions itself, as the political leader of the statement also reflects the traditional

desire or mark wrong. which started, which emerged long before they got on escalation, about some new initiative, new outreach with, with russia, which you can do that the goal of the provisions of the go, according to which europe cannot be secure against russia. that some sort of arrangement with russia has to be made for europe, whole free of the piece. okay, well it then, i mean that's, that's the whole point here because we talk about your, the mother of all sanctions and the pain will be overwhelming. but i mean, if there is a, a strong sanctioned regime against pressure or something that hasn't even done that, they claim that it will do, which again, kind of puts your mind into a bed. so it's the europeans that pay the cost and, and people like my crown and chancellor shows are beginning to realize that is that they're the net losers. all the u. s. what last is it a bit sprayed with russia?

it's almost, it's minuscule. european union is very, very different. so that's like the americans want the you cravings to buy the russians to the last ukrainian and everybody else picks up the bill. that's what it sounds like to me. well, it's absolutely true. and if you say europe waking up to this, germany is not on board with this back there preventing that, they're not giving over flights for arm ship into ukraine. as she mentioned, france is not on board. of course, these are 2 of the most significant countries in europe and in russia as well, of course and other soviet states. and the u. s. has never had such a war. the wars we fight a wars of choice and we don't know what it feels like to be occupied or to have our cities destroyed europeans do. and they don't want this again. they don't want lord

war 3 that they have no interest in that. and as you say, they don't want to sanctions regime that's going to hurt them. that's going to cut them off from natural gas supplies from russia that are just right. they're very close. look to upside of all this to me is this could destroy nature. this may be the thing to end nato, which just is an antiquated alliance. after 1991, it had no purpose and it has no purpose now. and this may be the thing to destroy it, and i welcome me. if i agree with you in principle, but let me, let me go to paul. i mean, this was, this is a way to maintain american hegemony in europe. and it seems to me, and i'm agreeing with dave here. i think this is a of the end game for nato because it, it, with the indivisibility of, of security. i mean it's, it's in tried in the helsinki final act, it has been over and over again and trying and then when push comes to shove, no,

we're not going to apply here. but you said something earlier, paul, but i think it's really important. nato expansion has actually worked against its unity because of youth pointed out the baltic. republics, you have poland. it's turning into a wag. the dale wag the dog situation where they're taking maximus positions and the french, you know, in the, in the crow out the hungarians, you know, the, you know, we don't really want to go that far. is this really and turning and making the alliance more and more brittle, and maybe that is, explains the for roaches. a heightened propaganda that is coming out of the u. s. in the u. k. i don't, i don't see. so nato, i'm going away any time soon. beat the institutional interests involved are 7 homeless. that's on the survey. no way that's, that's gonna happen just as too many a institution. but if it doesn't expand,

been, you know, what's it's ambition? well, i mean it, some it, at the moment it's found it's, it's found, it's found itself a role which is defending europe against russia. that will keep it busy. now keep it busy for a few years. and because, you know, i mean the, the space for i sort of come and go, so, you know, we had rogue states fragile states ethnic cleansing terrorism, you know, one after the other. and as, as, as each, each last one doesn't quite come up to scratch. you find you on, but this, this, russian, mom is in the center of a better because they've got terrorism. you company justify massive armies or whereas with the russian frances is quite suitable for that point. you don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but i'm, you know, it is, it is very suitable. and to me in that regard, i'm also, you know, i don't, i don't see quite the divisions that i think the rest of the day, for instance,

or germany. germany seems to not know where the hell is going. i went on the new government, the foreign minister made a statement of sale or yesterday saying that germany would back ukraine, whatever. pretty much a basic cop blash which is. so we're not going to actually do anything for you if you home it's but you, whatever you do, you can do it will support, which is the cost of a worst sort of thing. because if, if i walk between russian, you claim what happens the most likely scenario would be because of some effort by ukraine, france to try and we'll try don't bass militarily. so, so adding the trainings on by saying we've got your back regardless, it's very responsible. so i think that's the real problem about policy. and the moment is that when we, you know, we, we don't actually support ukraine all the way. right. and we don't send the weapons and, and we won't give them a membership of night out of st. thomas on the back of all right now. 4 which i'm

saying we've got your back regardless of what we do, which that gives them no incentive to, to, to carry out the conditions of the uminski agreement, baffle keeps this whole thing rolling on and keeps, it keeps the aggravation going. so it's very responsible policy, but it's an irresponsible policy we can follow precisely because it doesn't really matter very much to us. and that was a lot of brownie points. you can get a politician for clustering without really having to pay any price for it. but that, that, that means you're not dealing with serious people. dmitri, this, these are not serious people. i mean, then what is russia supposed to do? i mean, how is it supposed to react to all these different voices? it's the wonder that they, they, with the russians, withdrew from the joint commission. they have the council, they had because it was useless as a waste of time. the letter of that, of the russians and, and the reply was boiler plate, as i said, it was that they could have written it before they even read the letter. it was so boiler plate. ok, so i mean from the russian side, how are they supposed to treat these people? i mean, who do you listen to that?

the why the letter was sent to the us because they're not dealing with the european union because when you talk to go ahead to major. well 1st, let me agree with all completely of that made. there was more going to go way the future. of course, nato is the institutionalization of america to germany in europe. and as long as you can most become as subject an agent for itself in the car security, real nato will survive. right, when you leave the agency or your role in order to allow nato will disappear, we just don't see the agency and i in the future, you will west of things themselves. unfortunately, do not know how to. so why, for the world that we're facing without america, including france. so this is why ok, neither will continue to survive with whom russia will continue to bowl i with the united states, 1st and foremost, i am confident like bronson germany. right?

i mean, i strongly doubt that russia will talk with the central and eastern european congress with nato as an a lot as a alliance. but it doesn't lead to right the course. again, all the decisions are made by the united states. your west european conference can play the role hypothetical in a mainly in terms of ukraine implementing needs. good ramos, i'm yes, i fully agree also with paul that's statements like we will support your brain under any conditions but extremely comparable. by the way, your grading is obliged to implement the means agreements because of the international law because as dan right said, they were enshrined in the us to go to the call. so now your brain explicitly fails to implement the meet the needs agreement. so bronson,

germany basically co authors of the means agreements and parties of the normal the form are to exert pressure on your grade when it comes to the overall negotiations about european secure to the system. well, we do have a jump called or part of this is big united states. well, today the u. s. is the main security player in europe within, within nato. and i think russia will combine diplomatic negotiations with the united states also with france and germany. perhaps with believe i am continuation will be of the miller refresh. because military pressure is the only way unfortunate lead to make russia, or, you know, to make russian concerns. they consider that by the way, i do not agree fully this, such a response would have been read,

you will without reading the prosecutor to the mos. i think that there has been a certain on secondary issues. but over the now, the united states are willing to talk about issues with russia with which they have not been willing in the american response. i think they agreed. yeah. they real quick. what other tricks can we expect 25 seconds because it seems like there's no boxes empty because net price is a show with such a red bull failure. i just saw some news stories from yesterday saying that there are, you know, us mercenaries in the dom bass region. you baby, stirring up trouble. so who knows what the game is here? there are, there are members of the u. s. ruling class, who i think do want some sort of confrontation and i'm worried that they will do something to promote what. ok german that's, that will probably give us cause to convene again. that's all the time we have. want to take my guess about pittsburgh and here in most or i think our viewers are

watching us here to see an ex family member. oh, in ah. join me every thursday on the alex silent. sure. i'll be speaking to guess when the world politics, small business,

i'm show business. i'll see you then. ah, well, they directly re sell advertise as a content to us and decide who sees what content when and how much of it. facebook claims that these algorithms are there to learn about our specific preferences. actually, this is untrue shaping preference. if tomorrow a person finds a fake with video with that saying the flat, then this content ranks. huh. little. at least 20 percent or maybe even 40 percent or pretty. that is true. it's a very dangerous thing. ah,

what are you doing? what are you doing today? oh, canadian police go in heavy at the antibiotics in mandate protests and also our prime minister trudeau choice to belittle will demonstrate it a few people shouting and weaving. swastikas does not define who canadian there were thousands of people coming down here showing support. there was like, you know, there was music report from the canadian capital where despite the government pushed back the protest south policy off peacefully. oh, so this our, our teeth, german language channel appeals to berlin pills, berlin's broadcast band. we have from russian foreign ministry spokesman.