oh and engagement, it was the trail. ah, when so many find themselves? will the pardon? we choose to look for common ground. ah, plenty more. they directly re sell, advertise as content to us and decide who sees what content when and how much of it . facebook claims that these algorithms are there to learn about our specific preferences. actually this is untrue. they are shaping preference. if tomorrow a person finds a fake poor legit video. we're saying the earth is flat, then this content ranks. huh. at least 20 percent or maybe even 40 percent. believe it's true. it's

a very dangerous thing. with hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm hearing about while tensions remain high over ukraine. one thing has abundantly been made clear. russia in nato have fundamentally different ideas about pan european security and neither side appears to be in the mood to compromise. is this why the propaganda war is reaching new heights? ah,

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess. all robinson in ottawa, he is professor at the graduate school public international affairs at university of ottawa in pittsburgh. we have dan caballo, he is a professor of international human rights law and author supplies to skate for russia. and here in boston, we have to meet re so soft. he is deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school economics. i generally cross talk roles and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let's go to auto upon, i'm sure you came across the exchange that ned price had with matt lee of the associated press. and that's why i entered my introduction about heightened propaganda because it was truly an extraordinary media experience where the 1st of all, you have to believe me. second of all, if you doubt us intelligence and british halogens than you're somehow a stooge for the kremlin. i mean, is this where we have gotten to because there's,

there's no evidence of anything we're waiting for godot, we're waiting for an imminent invasion. this has been going on since november and all the while we'll talk later in the program, is that the quote unity that nato keeps talking about simply doesn't exist. go ahead, paul. yes, it was, it was a great exchange cuz mattie has done this before. he used to do the same thing to jackie when she was looking at the state department back in 242015 and ran rings around on many occasions. but you have to write, but the problem with, oh, visa intelligence leaks and statement says that there is a lack of supporting evidence from now being told to take turns on trust and know perhaps, or in my youth. when i would myself as a member of the intelligence community and you can, i would have done so. but we've seen unfortunately on altogether too many incidents and which these claims that turned out at work to be unsure and best to be young, verifiable. and therefore,

be very foolish of anybody to take them entirely on trust at this point. so when that price says, you know, if you don't believe us, you can take the news from the russians or something. i think not seen a very disingenuous sense. he must surely understand that, sir, is that there is a lack of chance. you know, i'm from a rocky company and deal with. no. russia has been imminently preparing to invade you trying now for 100 days without doing so. but people are going to be a little skeptical, and i think that's all that you should should. i wouldn't say, you know, dismiss everything, but we are state department of u. s. government, somebody was unsure, but nonetheless, if i don't provide supporting evidence, treated like a degree of skepticism. and dmitri, let me go to you. i mean, it rushes, the subject of so much of this commentary and, and i find it really amazing. i always look at it as a, an enormous amount of patients here because so many things that are said are just absolutely absurd, waiting for an invasion that russia has over and over again. that is not in the

cards. and what this would be, but the quote unquote imminent invasion is, is a dodge because russia, the russians keep saying, correct me if i'm wrong. on december 17th, they send 2 letters, one to the nato. i want to be united states and the russians, if they do, we talk about these 2 letters. it's not talk about, it's not about ukraine. and that is discursive direction. that western media and western governments, and particularly nature want to focus on. it's not about your bank records, the symptom of the problem. and this is the information war that is very hard to fight because they, if you're interlocutor is not going to react to you. how do you, how do you control the narrative? it's impossible, you're talking it parallels. go ahead metering. well 1st i fully agree with you. i think of the west tries to diverse. the agenda tries to focus on green instead of discussing the fundamental issues. so there are some concerns on the

european security, and this is done deliberately, a, for all the core issues. the process tries to put on the table, namely nato enlargement. and secondly, it is done in order to legitimize of the russian demands about the security given this, because the russian security guarantees demands based on the premise, the nato in launches to the often borders. thus, creating threats, bus rating challenges for us, and russia wants to build that. so from the russian perspective, nay, to expand it is revising a distribution list and rational wants to store that expansion. whereas, if you present the situation as the eminent russian innovation in the ukraine, then you put everything aside. from this perspective, russia is the expense of this country,

which tries to convey greenwich come back to revision this for foreign policy. where as nato is at the defensive, in price to prevent this loss of nation. so if absolutely food stamp thing upside down is done, it is done. so at the delivery of a day. one of the things i find very peculiar, if not very frustrating, is that this is all, i'm in the garb of protecting democracy. well, you can't. democracy's pretty dodgy at best. and again, in the western narrative about what about russian aggression, russian pending aggression, russian expansion is, want to rebuild the soviet union. all this nonsense here. it's never noted in the narrative that in, in february of 2014 the united states. and it's made no allies, fortunately over through the democratically elected government in ukraine that is

never mentioned. so it's about democracy then why did western powers overthrow and democracy in ukraine? and by the way, the person that was behind that was victoria. know and, and she's back in our, in the bike administrative. go ahead. yes. yes. and we know from on record a telephone calls that she was quarterbacking to coo and quarterbacking, who was going to take over who was going to be in the new government who was not going to be. and of course, again, according to her, the cia is spent billions of dollars on supporting making sure that the people we want power are in power in ukraine. but also if you talk about democracy, we have to talk about the don bass region as well, according to the men's agreements, which the un security council with the united states approved re those that region has a right to some self autonomy. right,

and an a kia has not honored that part of the agreement. and of course, this bothers russia legitimately. and 1st of all, that's an interest of democracy policy. the u. s. decides which countries it's going to balkanized and which you know, a small parts of countries. it's going to recognize that here the world said, you know jeanette skin in lieu hans has a right to some self autonomy. there should be elections there. ultimately, if they want to have a territorial, a certain amount of, of, of self rule they should have that in the us just ignores that. now, in order this makes it worse, is that because government sign back russians, not of signet or of that agreement, it was a government that said that that they would implement them and they haven't got it . let me go back to ball in ottawa, i think there's a silver lining to this,

these tensions here. paul, is that because if you look at the nato response to the russian letter was boiler plate, it was worthless, it was that nothing of value to it, but the american one actually had some trimmings there that you can to on is that there is essentially a recognition that yes indeed, russia has some security and interest and it has to your political interest as well . i mean, you know, is that there was a defensive alliance and that's on speed dial. ok. but this letter actually was saying, yeah, you kind of got a point though, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to actually act upon it. but there is a recognition here and i think that's actually a plus for the right hand side. during all the spitters by had mom might be more of a recognition of bosch and send them in the car later. the problem is that nato has to operate on the grounds of consensus, which essentially means it's going to go down to the lowest common denominator. and

therefore, a lot of the agenda is going to be a german ready by friday. so stay sent back. it states proteins and so on. they actually end up having quite a strong influence on the overall outcome of out of 10, which comes out later. because that position has to be consolidated with any, any, any documents. whereas on a, russia has clearly decided that it can do much more bind actually with the united states, and it can do operating for nato or european union. so i really, i think, trying to speak tonight has pretty much that and you may be right, that may be possibility of some small incremental progress through talks of united states. so that's sort of us having left b i n f treaty is now. so talking about re introducing it. yep. which, which is, which is i plus on the russian point of view. these things, of course, don't meet the much larger demands. russian federation was making effect. those

demands are unrealistic. i'm not entirely sure why they, why they were made, because america is never going to agree to them. but the money might be some agreement on small things i need know by step putting it on the agenda. i think it was a wise thing to do. look into go haitian, you never get everything you want. so i mean, that was a dmitri or you're not in your head there. i mean, i think this is part of the game, but here, i mean, you won't listen to our demand. so we're going to make ours public, we're going to send, we will let the whole world know that this is what our concerns are. i think they have made some progress. that doesn't mean it will succeed. dimitry. well, i think that there was some absolute us demands made there for the sake of negotiations, but i think it's extremely important to make it clear that the prospect considers natal nolan lodgement. and the cancellation of the very prospect will even hypothetical prospect. your grade in georgia, joining nato as

a real law. there's an absolute this on demand for the sake of negotiations. but as a very real and real list, the mom i am from the rational perspective. it is possible, you know, never say never, it is possible for this demand to be addressed. and i will feel by the united states be course again from the national perspective. the statement which was included into the response documents from the united states and nato, that some principles of may. so they agreed principles of european security keep it may go wrong. um, stating the closed board policy that you're graham and georgia are flow that this is, this is a 3. this is a 3 can play broker. so because there is nothing either in the nato, java, in the nato 3 or in the parish chapel, new euro,

which come pals and obliges nato to include both because that was the joy made them. right. it is awful. they are lions to make decisions. which confident which inspires to join nato. a joyous is able to join him and which ones, and which is which mobile. so, but on the russian perspective, when they, the claims that it can not simply can more exclude the prospect of your grade in georgia. joining nato, the future, it means simply that the alliance uses a breaking up short break. well, junior discussion on some real estate, r o, join me every 1st it on the alex simon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess from the world politics sport business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then.

mm. back. kaiser's finances. no, they say made it a girl. i was in a central pac support diner. gonna call them right now. they stopped. ah, welcome back. across up were all things considered? i'm peter labelle. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some rumors. ah, story gentlemen, i want to read a quote from a politician of the last few days. the quote is the geopolitical objective of russia today is clearly not ukraine, but to clarify the rules of cohabitation with nato in the

e. u. we don't have any buzzers, genuine, but it's jeremy chancellor. no, no. nadia. dimitri general kissinger. macro many well ma chrome. i was thinking, wow gentlemen, isn't it interesting? it sounds like he's speaking, cram one, talking points here to meet her. you're laughing. why? well, i think that micro on the right of the said, yeah, i can do that and i'm using it is multiple. if you grade, this is the fundamental issues of principles of rules or european security. ok? but you know, it's important to understand the macro now wants to make something you're wants to deliver something because course your faces elections 1st and 2nd live before you positions itself. as the political leader of the statement also reflects the

traditional desire or wrong which started, which emerged long before they got on escalation about some new initiative, new outreach with, with russia, where you can do that. the goal is to the traditions of the go, according to which europe cannot be secure against russia, that some sort of arrangement with russia has to be made for europe, whole free of the piece. okay, well it then, i mean that's, that's the whole point here because we talk about your, the mother of all sanctions and the pain will be overwhelming. but i mean, if there is a, a strong sanctioned regime against pressure or something that hasn't even done that, they claim that it will do, which again, kind of puts your mind into a bed. so it's the europeans that pay the cost and, and people like my crown and chancellor show to beginning to realize that is that they're the net losers at all. the u. s. what last, is it

a bit sprayed with russia? it's almost, it's minuscule. european union is very, very different. so that's like the americans month, the crating, the by the russians to the last ukrainian and everybody else picks up the bill. that's what it sounds like to be. well, it's absolutely true. and if you say europe waking up to this, germany is not on board with this back there preventing that, they're not giving over flights for armed ship into ukraine. she mentioned france is not on board. of course, these are 2 of the most significant countries in europe and, you know, we have to remember. and again, as an american, i have to remind other americans, you know, these are countries that had 2 world wars, you know, where their countries were devastated and russia as well, of course, and other soviet states. and the u. s. has never had such a war. the wars, we fight a wars of choice and we don't know what it feels like to be occupied or to have our

cities destroyed europeans do. and they don't want this again. they don't want world war 3 that they have no interest in that. and as you say, they don't want to sanctions regime that's going to hurt them. that's going to cut them off from natural gas supplies from russia that are just right there. very close. look, the upside of all this to me is this could destroy nature. this may be the thing to end nato, which is an antiquated alliance. after $991.00, it had no purpose and it has no purpose now. and this may be the thing to destroy it and i, well, i mean it, i agree with you in principle, but let me, let me go to paul. i mean, this was, this is a way to maintain american hegemony in europe. and it seems to me, and i'm agreeing with dave here. i think this is a, uh, the end game for nato because it, in the visibility of, of security. i mean it's,

it's in trying in the helsinki final act, it's been over and over again and trying and then when push comes to shove, no, we're not going to apply here. but you said something earlier. well, that i think is really important. nato expansion is actually worked against. it's unity because of youth pointed out the baltic. republics, you have poland. it's turning into a wag the day when the dog situation where they're taking maximus, positions of the french, you know, in the, in the crow out the hungarians, you know, the, you know, we don't really want to go that far. is this really a turning and making the alliance more and more brittle? and maybe that is, explains b for roaches. a heightened propaganda that is coming out of the u. s. and the u. k . i don't, i don't, he's on nato. i'm going away any time soon. beat the institutional interests involved, so enormous that some say no way that's gonna happen just as too many

a party to, to get this institution. but if it doesn't expand, been you know what to say ambition. well, i mean it, some it, at the moment it's found it's, it's found, it's found itself a role which is defending europe against russia. that will keep it busy. now keep it busy for a few years. and because, you know, i mean, i sort of come and go so, you know, we had rogue states fragile states ethnic cleansing terrorism, you know, one off to be of a and as, as, as each, each last one doesn't quite come up to scratch. you find you on, but this, this, russian, mom is in the center of a better because they got terrorism. you company justify massive armies or whereas with the russian frances is quite suitable for that. frontier don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but it is, it is very suitable. and to me, in that regard,

i'm also, you know, i don't, i don't see quite the divisions. i think the rest of the day, for instance, or germany, germany seems to not know where to how it's going. i went on to the new government . the foreign minister made a statement from sale yesterday saying that germany would back ukraine, whatever. pretty much a basic cop blash which is so we're not going to actually do anything for you if you helmets, but you whatever you do, you can do it will support, which is the cost of a worst sort of thing. because if, if i, if i, well between russian you claim what happens the most likely scenario would be because of some effort by ukraine, for instance, trying real by dumbass militarily. so, so again, the trainings on by saying we've got your back regardless is very responsible. so i think is there a problem about policy? and the moment is that when we, you know, we, we don't actually support ukraine over way. right. and we don't send the weapons

and, and we won't give them a membership of nato. same time. we sort of like a lot right now. 4 which i'm saying we've got your back regardless of what you do, but sample gives them no incentive to, to, to carry out the conditions of the uminski agreement, baffle keeps this whole thing rolling on and keeps, it keeps the aggravation going. so it's very irresponsible policy, but it's an irresponsible policy we can follow precisely because it doesn't really matter very much to us. and that was a lot of brownie points you can get as a politician for clustering without really having to pay any price for it. but that, that, that means you're not dealing with serious people. dmitri, this, these are not serious people. i mean, then what is russia supposed to do? i mean, how is it supposed to react to all these different voices? it's the wonder that they, they, the russians withdrew from the joint commission. they have the council, they had because it was useless as a waste of time. the letter that of the russians and, and the reply was boiler plate,

as i said it was that they could have written it before they even read the letter. it was so boiler plate. ok. so, i mean, from the russian side, how are they supposed to treat these people? i mean, who do you listen to that? the why the letter was sent to the us because they're not dealing with the european union because who you talk to go ahead to major. well 1st, let me agree with all completely of that nature is not going to go away. the future . of course, nato is the institutionalization of america to germany and europe. as long as you can most become as subject an agent for itself in the car security a real need to will supply, right? you need agent. so in order to lo, nathan will disappear. we just don't see the h l c, b i in the future you west european themselves unfortunately, do not know how to survive for the world that we're facing without america, including france. so this is why ok and they will continue to support with whom

russia will continue to go. i with the united states, 1st and foremost, i am confident like bronson germany. right. i mean, i strongly doubt that russia will talk with the central and eastern european congress with nato as an a law as a alliance. but it doesn't lead to right the course. again, all the decisions are made by the united states. your west european conference can play a role that the role hypothetical in a mainly in terms of ukraine implementing needs. good us, i'm, yes, i fully agree also with paul that's statements like we will support your brain under any conditions, but extremely comparable. by the way, your brain is obliged to implement the means to agreements because of the international law because as they're right said they were in trying to go to the call. so now your brain explicitly fails to implement the means agreement.

so branson, germany, basically co authors of the means agreements and part of the normal the form are to exert pressure on the grid when it comes to the overall negotiations about europe institute of the system. well, we do have a jump, a counterpart, and this is big united states. well, today the us is the main security player in europe within, within nato. and i think raso will combine diplomatic negotiations with the united states also with france and germany. perhaps i am continuation will be of the miller refreshing because military pressure is the only way unfortunate lead to, to make process for, you know, to make rational concerns. they consider that by the way,

i do not agree fully this, such a response would have been written even without reading the prosecutor to the mos. i think that there has been a certain on 2nd issues. but over the now, the united states are willing to talk about issues with russia, with which they have not been willing in the american response. they agreed, yeah. they real quick. what other tricks can we expect 20 by seconds, because it seems like there's no boxes empty because net prices i show with such a dreadful failure. i just saw some news stories from yesterday saying that there are, you know, us mercenaries in the dom bass region. you baby, stirring up trouble, so who knows what the game is here? there are, there are members of the u. s. ruling class, who i think do want some sort of confrontation and i'm worried that they will do something to promote what ok on that that will probably give us cause to convene

again. that's all the time we have. one thing we get some odd pittsburgh and here in most or i think our viewers are watching us here to see an ex family member. oh. in oh, is your media a reflection of reality? ah, in the world transformed. what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is great?

in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. when you monet directly re sell, advertise as content to us and decide who sees what content when and how much of it . facebook claims that these algorithms are there to learn about our specific preferences. actually, this is untrue. they are shaping preference. if tomorrow a person finds a fake point where the gym video we're saying the flat then this content ranks. huh . at least 20 percent or maybe even 40 percent. believe it is true.

it is a very dangerous thing. ah, what are you doing? what are you doing like a canadian, please go in heavy anti vaccine monday protests and also as prime minister trudeau tries to belittle the demonstrated if you people shouting and weaving, swastikas does not define who canadian or there were thousands of people coming down here showing support there was like, you know, there was music report from the canadian capital. why, despite the government pushed back to protest, stuff, passing off peacefully, cuts universal credit and soaring bills are taking its toll on families just getting by resulting in them doing something they never imagined. like.