off the tension on but i mean, in a way i, i think the west is at the moment and particularly, but it's a sort of am i for example, where we're promised legislation which will produce heavy sanctions within 24 hours. if there is one soldier that crosses russian soda crosses the ukrainian frontier, i mean, that's a kind of, you know, wrapping up tension because i, russia is always denied that she has any intention of invading the crane. and this is almost goading. i mean it's, it's, it's very disturbing because i'm a, in a way it's, it's brightens attempt to take a lead in an issue which it's not really concerned with because it's not part of the normandy process. it's not part of mens, it's, it's really it's really trying to hold nato together,

make nato into, into, you know, the, the main, the main point where is in fact this is a ukraine, russian issue primarily. i mean, why do you think her there was heating the words of president zalinski, who is alarmed by the of the fact to evacuation of diplomatic personnel from here. and i suppose the impact on ordinary ukrainians economically by all this panic. yeah, well they want, they, i mean, i, i think it's very hard. i think, i think, you know, looking at it from brighten spawn to beer. they are out of the main negotiation. they're not part of, i mean, the real diplomatic. a settlements have to be primarily between ukraine and russia, and america and russia,

france and germany play an important diplomatic ro. britain is not part of that, but he wants to get in on the action in a way. and it wants to play the part of the champion of nature against russian aggressive designs. and so that's the way it gets into the action. but i think it's highly counterproductive. i mean, i wish the british government would say very, very little and leave the, the, negotiate the negotiations to the parties, mainly concerned which are russia, ukraine, germany, very important. and the united states. when i just say let's, let's go to the united states and i should say it's cross political spectrum here. all voices around the house, kids tama, went to brussels this week to talk to nato as devoris johnson. as for joe biden, he has said with all of sholtes, i think, standing next to him, the north stream too, has to be stopped,

will be stopped germany more circumspect shortly. that would just mean that the russian energy resources will go through the existing pipeline in ukraine. rather than nordstrom, it's still russian energy, and i don't know how he says how he thinks that the united states will stop it. if germany wants to go for. i mean, i don't know what that means, we will stop it. we can stop it. there may be some legal grounds for for intervention, but i don't, i don't see how else united states can stop it. and biden's position is, is, is quite ambiguous. i mean, he's got a much more warlike congress behind him than he himself. i think or fails. and of course, and the other thing is the term, the interesting thing is, the trump said he wanted the united states to lead nature

and you know, in a way the united states is reassessing its position in the world. that should be an opportunity for some diplomas. i think i think trump back down on that eventually saying that was a threat eventually, eventually back down and event. that was his instinct. that was his instinct. well, the outcome, assuming it's not going to be terrible casualties and world war 3, de facto has been good for arms. companies obviously are benefiting from all this material and the big outcome the drawing together in moscow in bay ging do not think that nato understands that or is, does nature want dresser in china ever closer relationship? because clearly that's happening. what you're asking for people to be rational. and that of course, is a very optimistic view of the way international affairs are conducted. there are

rational elements and of course it is hopeless to drive russia into the hands of china. i mean, that's a real triumph ironically, isn't it a western diplomacy? but, but what the point i want to make and you know, people have been talking about possible neutralization of ukraine and finland as ation as a word that spin years. i've been looking at the case of finland and, you know, the things established a modus vivendi with the soviet union without any help from the west. it was the skill of their own leadership and what they decided they were the conditions of their independence. and you know, i'm looking for some initiative by you pray. i mean, i don't know, i don't know what, what negotiations are going on between ukraine and russia. i'm not privy to that, but it's some, some so some of that solution has to lie with ukrainians themselves. what and the

relationships do they want with russia, which is consistent with their independence. and i'm got a feel for that. i mean, ukraine isn't to united country finland was more or less united the fins also for the russians. and i'm impressed it with the cost of trying to occupy them. but i mean, i'm not, i'm not aware what the you praying, reaction is. and i don't think the other countries, they're interested in general security, especially germany, france. but they're not the main actors here. i mean, it's got to be ukraine and russia decide that their relationship together and, and that also means the kremlin has to be cautious. i mean, it's very easy to be goaded into action when you don't want action really when it's not in your best interest. so everyone has to be coo and they have to

think it through. but the main point truly is the you is ukraine, russian relationship. that seems to me absolutely central. i don't know. well, that's being discuss, marsh in russia, but that's the key to it. well, i mean have leverage said that the kind of talk are being used, reminds him of the gerbils textbook, textbook on propaganda when it comes to security agreements in, in europe, you know, a form a specialized foreign office. david clark says it's bad. we got ourselves into a situation now where our ability to respond to what pigeon is doing is damaged by wounds inflicted on ourselves politically. this is not a government that's well place to take a lead. the current immediate domestic context is of a government in trouble. a government with a track record, frankly, of engineering, sensational news interventions in order to distract and reflect from their own difficulties. lever also said that the evacuation of diplomatic staff could mean

a false flag that was echoing the american accusations of a russian false flag that could kick off conflict. yeah, we're both sides really are accusing the other of exploiting domestic difficulties . and there's an element of truth. i mean, when, when, when, when david clark, i think you quoted says it's johnson's or difficulties have weakened our ability, what does our me, oh, you are. i mean, britain hasn't got any, any huge ro there. he's talking on behalf of nature at the same time. it's also clear that i'm, president putin has political problems. i mean the, the level of his, the level of the opposition has been rising. so politicians use always use political. they make use of political motive, their motives are political, as well as motives of principle and higher things. and i think you got to take both

of those into account. you know, they've got to be statesman like both sides. very statesman. because otherwise, things could escalate out of control without anyone intending. what do you think the media's role is being in the all of this at the moment as regards to echoing, yeah, in britain it's been disastrous. you know, there is a co op b in bert, very strong. it's got support in the united states. i didn't think united states is actually the leader, the cone walk, they congress maybe, and of course, ukrainian lobby in washington. there, there is one there as well. but, but a, but it's the media haven't played a very, very good row. i found it quite hard to get stuff in the british press, which takes russian security ah,

concerns seriously. and it's a, it's hard to place these things. i mean, i, i succeed, but you know, with, with difficulty. so there's a cold war. there's a cold war atmosphere, but it could run out of control if it was allowed to. and that's why it's very important. the diplomats and states one must start talking with each other, and again i am besides the point, ukrainians must start talking to russia. but i mean, what do you think about the absolute support that little british labor is giving for boards? johnson's position? i think it's an example, all know all of the official attitude. it is one lay feel that in this crisis there should be a national solidarity behind this policy um, over threatening russia with sanctions and severe sanctions.

i'm ancient but you see to me it's not the truck julian moment. you know the trick, surely and moment burton has to unite to defend itself against aggression. it's it's, it's a mad conversation. russia is not threatening burton. it's not a security threat to breton ethel. why they, why are they am, why they are all uniting as they were? so i think the labor parties actually misconstruing the function of a good opposition at this time, which is to query the premises, or the government's policy. and it's left to a few of us to do that. i'm not many, i'm and difficult if you're in parliament because then people might say, oh, you just pray, rush, full stop. let's get else. he thank you. thank you. after the break,

mutual defense, so mutual destruction is name to a relic of the cold war pushing for conflict in ukraine, autism. or can we only want to have going underground ah hello, this is with syncs. we dared to ask in

with welcome back about one of the show we spoke to lord scale ski award winning biographer later john maynard keynes, by the way, out of the crisis in ukraine. and joining me now from moscow is andrew caught in the director general of the russian international affairs council. thank you so much, director general for coming on. i better start with what deborah johnson's foreign check realist just said it must go to the russian foreign minister. so get leverage, prove it, prove the negative that russia is not going to invade ukraine. well, you know, all the time that trash is not going to invade ukraine. i wonder how much time the foreign secretary needs to get convinced that aggression is not within the our plan. so the candid, i recall that they,

y'all keep talking about the russian asian already a couple of months. i am definitely really wanted to wait. you crane. she would have done it in a very different fashion, or we would have probably seen a covert operation. a surprise operation like surprises and apparently, since there is more involved, she invasion of the stage show. she means something very different. but so our media in nato nations tell us, that's why the reason he didn't was because she didn't pink, told him not to during the winter olympics, when vladimir putin visited by jane. that that is the that's, that's a bit. is it? yeah, it's a very convincing argument was so i have to tell you that if you look back into recent crisis, all of them will, many of them actually happened during the olympic games. that was the case in 2. 08

. a tried to use military means in order to recapture south our c t. m, which provoked a war in the south caucasus. and that was the case in 2014 when we had to lympics in. so she and there was a mutiny key of a crisis for 2014. so olympics, it seems to be a very good cover for any kind of risk or activities. if nothing happens, i think we can stay, you know, more or less assured that nothing is a likely to happen. and they know, i think that any cost benefit analysis would suggest that a war with ukraine is not. you know, actually just that has been said repeatedly, but the 1000 troops are on standby. or as johnson has announced, sanctions and been ready,

johnson saying that russia wants to redraw the security map of europe. what did you make of a, my 6 intelligence that was d classified here in britain saying that the evan, mariah ukrainian m p, actually banned in russia, was a de facto russian agent, being prepared to take power and give well, i'm sure that we will see more we charge you create a list. yeah. well he should, he should deny job. frankly, i don't see how it can be exercised. if you look at the current government to kind of what i was say about the union state about, well, i didn't of the last year has fallen to legitimacy. i don't think that any in poster any potential for leader brought to crane on our, with the russian troops is likely to get kind of ability and legitimacy,

the kind of society. and i think that everybody in the government should know that or so, i doubt that it is so something that the government is conspiring to right now. well, president, he has warned nato nations not to cause panic to obviously the gradient economy. and he's also, i think, the deputy defense minister of ukraine, hannah and molly are said, what are all these review s claims and reports of officials being rural customer? reuters, cnn that their blood supply is being exported there. what, what is the future of moscow have relations? it seems that then he was talking with mackerel, perhaps about some kind of tool with moscow. well, i think you don't need a positional oscar. it's clear on ukraine, it wants to comply with the provisions. so that means agreements and that has

always been the position taken by the and i think that the concern is that the leadership might be tempted to use military means in order to resolve the problem. and this is clearly at large for the kremlin, because there are almost a 1000000 of citizens right now reside in gone boss. i am definitely on the rational who tend to interfere, you know, to protect or these people will be very strong. why do you think, why do you think it is that even in a donation, obviously they supported the minsk agreement so validated by un security council resolution to, to and yet self autonomous regions that are gans don't best they don't broadcast about the media about what the what the responsibilities of kids are in the means.

agreements at all. well my take is the western sympathetic to, to, to you for they want to demonstrate solidarity with the leadership. and maybe they believe, or at least some people in the world believe that the means agreements are not fair to cues of that or they were signed by bipolar shankar with a gun oriented to his forehead. and therefore, ukraine has the right to ignore, or at least to a wise the means agreements do. it's like and that's how it stands right now. but if you put yourself into hooton's shoes, you should ask yourself, why should i allow ukraine to change the provisions of that means? agreements. if they do not like it to keep, after all, you know, they sign the agreements and they're supposed to comply with the agreements,

even if they don't like it. that's what, which in all of us to refer us to, i presume, i mean, joe biden. the said that the all been said, the don't stream to it finished. i presume he doesn't. just one doesn't alternative russian energy resources through the existing bi blinds in ukraine as an alternative. he wants jo, german chancellor shoals to start buying frack gas from the united states. do you think german john social is persuaded? not sure about that, at least unless something really dramatic happens. and you create your own ukraine . my guess is that germany will try to defend the project, argue that this is a commercial project and also that the russian gas pipeline gas is cheaper than american l. n g. and besides, there is no guarantee that the united states will shoot this guess to germany.

because many of american producers are more interested in exploring markets in asia, where markets are growing in germany is not exactly the case. so it's a question to what extent the united states canada place as the main supplier of a gas to germany and to europe. but i'm sure that to germany will try to decrease its dependence on there. i guess it will try to go on with the screen transition. and just a matter of time, it will definitely take a couple of years, but maybe a couple of decades to get to carbon neutrality. but i think that germany is firmly committed to this goal, which will hopefully reach maybe by mid century and make trouble that fatty barrel runs the international energy agency. the executive director says the

upheaval of the energy market any upheaval as more consequences for russia than for the european union. well, i see that there is a situation all fainter dependence on russia depends on european markets and those russia tries to diversify that they increase. guess shipments to china, but still i think europe remains and will remain the main market south for, for the russian pipeline. guess, as far as europe is concerned. ok. well i think that to right now guys fall off maybe covers about that for something close to one 3rd to all of your pin, i guess important. think that this share my shrink box still your will continue to ban to the russian case for some time, at least hasn't the pigeon government damage russian business, hasn't it been a whole failure of diplomacy by the russian government here? the sanctions regime that exists that learn the ones that are threatened,

or it's just, you know, talking about the trilateral group with poland in ukraine to fight to russia and almost daily reports here in major countries of russian attempts at aggression. we've had script and the, i know both a denied by the russian government to bridge for and for an office is russian diplomacy in crisis. well, i think that depends on what priorities are actually diplomacy has if you assume that today security is more important than prosperity i, it's about to, i have a rather than about development, that the international system will continue to be very volatile. that i will see more crisis ahead of us that we will see arms rates and proliferation and

regional conflicts and things like that. so then i think which is right because he clearly laces, security above economic interest. you press you that we are moving in the direction you are globalization, are you from within, in the direction of ok so far out and how much? if you believe that protection is, and nationalism are done or almost done, then probably we can argue that g is wrong and his priorities are not correct. but you know, the jury is still in session. we simply don't know what's going to happen. and we're all for my chancellor of germany, angela merkel argued that leave in a different world. if you remember her famous statement that he lived in

a different universe. one can say yes, this is right, but it is still an open question. who is universe universe is mario hooton's or that of angle america? yeah, i spoke to lots get else. kay. about the beneficiaries of all this current crisis, obvious iahomes companies, but also the relationship between aging and moscow. there's been talk of climate change, helping russia in terms of the thawing of ice in the largest country in the world. is that the new century then moscow may ging, the global south against native? well, i hope not. i hope that we are not going to see a new people. i don't see it is very difficult to preserve the old hierarchy. in the international system, it's very difficult to mobilize allies. we will see a lot of the factors, a lot of it, any gate leaders are trying to play their own games. a look at turkey, for example,

you know, who is there and i got a loyal ally of the united states as a member of the nature alliance, or is he a partner, mr. cochin and part no annual leaders? there is no clear answer the question. likewise, you look at india, you know, i think that it is not realistic to expect to even get to take sides in there will continue to be a part of the shot high corporation organization. the banks at the same time buy to continue to be a part of what it will continue to pursue. it's a partner relations with united states. so it is very difficult to envisage. and you are agent declarative. something like what was saw in the middle of the last century. i think the system will be much more complex. and in certain ways much less predictable and more controversial. well, they'll both be buying the s 400. so again,

india and jacob no thank you. thank you. that's even the show will be back on monday, 11 years to the day nature, back to president been alley of tunisia for demonstrations in his country to find refuge in u. s. u k. arms by saudi arabia, marking the start of the so called arab spring until then keep in touch by roll out social media. let us know if you think russia will invade ukraine. ah, with bring you the very latest every out the day. this is, i know everyone here with

john is not expressing itself and having this willingness to lead pipe to the country. china is still trying to learn from others and trying to do business with everybody, particularly with russia, with us, with the, you know, it's not a nation. this is something that the whole world needs to understand. china is history never has this experience of colonization never has experience of trying to bully others always tried to make friends with the mediterranean is the world's most efficient sea. unsustainable exploitation of

its fish dogs, which maureen biodiversity undergoing thread a lesson the getting a quote on us for sure. you understand this is because our system can continue to pull the cookie careful with tech and want to put our lives despite the promise is to end over fishing by 2020. the situation is changing to slow. well, i'm very disappointed with attrition that they've basically not in public interests. they also do know in the mid interest of the fishes, the only interest of the fishery and the facial the only one is in danger. the fishermen also at risk of losing or bugging them up to them before they get to them about that level. thought, i guess it might be real. she's been there wouldn't be abusive with

what it is likely to begin with ariel bombing and missile attacks that could obviously kill civilians without regard to their nationality. while washington vividly depicts the alleged russian invasion of ukraine or what it looks like, western media speculates on the exact date they think that'll happen. that comes out. russia continues to dismiss all reports as, quote, baseless propaganda. prime minister has intentionally stigmatized and divided canadians for political gain. canadian politicians accused justin trudeau of vilifying the freedom convoy demonstrated for his own ends. the prime minister threatened severe measures against the c. i a has been harvesting private data on americans for years. that's according to newly.