this ration kind of flip flops at the invasion was imminent. now it's any day, boss, johnson foreign secretary list trusting russia denials about invading ukraine or false, or at least level of as to prove it. i'm sure your take on this week's events. i was a better ask 1st. well, i, i think that, you know, there stoking up the tension on but i mean, in a way, i think the west is at the moment and particularly, but it's a sort of a for example where we're promised legislation which will produce heavy sanctions within 24 hours if there is one soldier across the russian soda crosses the ukrainian frontier. i mean, that's a kind of, you know, wrapping up tension because a rush is always denied that it has any intention of invading the cray. and this is almost goading. i mean it's, it's, it's very disturbing because i'm a, in

a way it's, it's brightness, attempt to take a lead in an issue which is not really concerned with because it's not part of the normandy process. it's not part of mens, it's, it's really it's really trying to hold nato together, make nato inter into, you know, the, the main, the main point. whereas in fact this is a ukraine, russian issue. primarily. i mean, why do you think her there aren't heeding the words of president lensky, who is alarmed by the of the fact to evacuation of diplomatic personnel from kia and i suppose the impact on ordinary ukrainians economically by all this panic? yeah, well they want, they, i mean,

i think it's very hard, i think, i think, you know, looking at it from brighten sport to view. they are out of the main negotiation. they're not part of, i mean the, the real diplomatic settlements have to be primarily between ukraine and russia. and america and russia, france and germany will play an important diplomatic role. britain is not part of that, but he wants to get in on the action in the way and it wants to play the car to the champion of nature against russian aggressive designs. and so that's the way it gets into the action. but i think it's highly counterproductive. i mean, i wish the british government would say very, very little and leave the, the, negotiate the negotiations to the parties, mainly concerned which are russia,

ukraine, germany, very important, and the united states. well, and i just said let's, let's go to the united states and i should say it's cross political spectrum here, all voices around the house. he has tama went to brussels this week to talk to nato as devoris johnson. as for joe biden, he has said with all of sholtes, i think standing next to him, the north stream too has to be stopped, will be stopped germany more circumspect. i'm surely that would just mean that the russian energy resources will go through the existing pipeline in ukraine, rather than nordstrom and still russian energy. and i don't know how he says how he thinks that the united states will stop it. germany wants to go for i mean, i don't know what that means. we will stop it. we can stop it. there may be some legal grounds for for intervention, but i don't, i don't see how else united states can stop it. and biden's position is, is,

is quite ambiguous. i mean, he's got a much more warlike congress behind him than he himself. i think i fails. and of course, and the other thing is the term, the interesting thing is that trump said he wanted the united states to leave nature and you know, in a way the united states is reassessing its position. i'm in the world. that should be an opportunity for some diplomas. i think i think trump back down on that eventually saying that was a threat eventually, eventually back down event. that was his instinct. that was his instinct. well, the outcome, assuming it's not going to be terrible casualties and world war 3 to factor has been good for arms. companies obviously are benefiting from all this material and the big outcome the drawing together in moscow in bay ging do not think that nato

understands that or is, does nature want dresser in china ever closer relationship? because clearly that's happening on your you're asking for people to be rational. and that of course, is a very optimistic view of the way international affairs are conducted. there are rational elements and of course, it is hopeless to drive russia into the hands of china. i mean, that's a real triumph ironically, isn't it a western diplomacy? but, but what the point i want to make and you know, people have been talking about possible neutralization of ukraine and finland eyes ation. as a word that's been years. i've been looking at the case of finland and, you know, the things established a modus vivendi with the soviet union without any help from the west. it was the

skill of their own leadership and what they decided they were the conditions of their independence. and you know, i'm looking for some initiative by you pray. i mean, i don't know, i don't know what, what negotiations are going on between ukraine and russia. i'm not privy to that, but it's some, some so some of that solution has to lie with ukrainians themselves. one and the relationships do they want with russia, which is consistent with their independence. and i'm got a feel for that. i mean, ukraine isn't to united country finland was more or less united. the fins also for the russian. and i'm impressed it with the cost of trying to occupy them. but i mean, i'm not, i'm not aware what you praying, reaction is, and i don't think the other countries, they're interested in general security, especially germany, france. but they're not the main actors here. i mean, it's got to be ukraine and russia decide their, their relationship together. and,

and that also means that the kremlin has to be cautious. i mean, it's very easy to be goaded into action when you don't want action really when it's not in your best interest. so everyone has to be coo and they have to think it through. but the main point truly is that you is ukraine, russian relationship, that seems to me absolutely central. i don't know. well that's being discuss, marsh in russia, but that's the key to it. well, i mean, leverett said that the kind of talk are being used, reminds me of the gerbils textbook, textbook on propaganda when it comes to security agreements in, in europe uniform, a specialized foreign office. david clark says it's bad. we got ourselves into a situation now where our ability to respond to what pigeon is doing is damaged by wounds inflicted on ourselves politically. this is not

a government that's well place to take a lead. the current immediate domestic context is of a government in trouble. a government with a track record, frankly, of engineering, sensational news interventions in order to distract and reflect from their own difficulties. lever also said that the evacuation diplomatic st off could mean a false flag that was echoing the american accusations of a russian false flag that could kick off conflict. yeah, well, both sides really are accusing the other of exploiting domestic difficulties. and there's an element of truth. i mean, when, when, when, when a david clark, i think you quoted says it's johnson's or difficulties have weakened our ability, what does our me, oh, you are. i mean, britain hasn't got any, any huge ro. she, there, he's talking on behalf of nature at the same time. it's also clear

that president putin has political problems. i mean the, the level of his, the level of the opposition has been rising. so politicians use always use political. they make use of political motive, their motives are political, as well as motives of principle and higher things. and i think you got to take both of those into account. you know, they've got to be statesman like both sides. very statesman. because otherwise, things could escalate out of control without anyone intending. what do you think the media's role is being in the all of this at the moment as regards echoing, yeah. in britain it's been disastrous. you know, there is a co op b in bert, very strong. it's got support in the united states. i didn't think united states is actually the leader, the cone, all congress maybe and of course,

ukrainian lobby in washington. there, there is one there as well. but a but it's the media hadn't played a very, very good row. i found it quite hard to get stuff in the british press, which takes russian security ah, concerns seriously. and it's a, it's hard to place these things. i mean, i, i succeed. but, you know, with, with difficulty. so there's a cold war. there's a cold war atmosphere, but it could run out of control if it was allowed to. and that's why it's very important to diplomats and states. one must start talking with each other. and again, i am of the size the point ukrainians must start talking to russia. but i mean, what do you think about the absolute support, the little british labor,

but he's giving for birth. johnson's position. i think it's an example of the official attitude. it is the one that they feel that in this crisis there should be a national solidarity behind this policy um, over threatening russia with sanctions and severe sanctions. it soon, but you say to me, it's not the tra chilion moment. you know, the trick, surely and moment britain has to unite to defend itself against aggression. it's, it's, it's a mad conversation. russia is not threatening britain, it's not a security threat to britain. therefore, why are they, why are they why they are all uniting as though it were? so i think the labor parties actually misconstruing the function of a good opposition at this time,

which is to query the premises of the government's policy. and it's left to a few of us to do that. not many, and difficult if you're in parliament because then people might say, oh, you're just pray, rush, full stop. let's get else. he thank you. thank you. after the break, mutual defense, so mutual destruction is nato, a relic of the cold war, pushing for conflict in ukraine. all of them all. can we only bought 2 of going on the ground. ah, ah .

with money money directly, we sell advertise, says content to us and decide who sees what content when and how much of it. facebook claims that these algorithms are there to learn about our specific preferences. actually, this is untrue. they are shaping preference. if tomorrow the person finds a fake point where the kid video we're saying the flat, then this content ranks. huh. at least 20 percent or maybe even 40 percent

or pretty. that's true. was a very dangerous thing with welcome back and bought one of the show he spoke to lord skel, sky, old winning biographer of the late john maynard keynes, by the way, out of the crisis in ukraine. and joining me now from moscow is andre quarter of the director general of the russian international affairs council. thank you so much, director general for coming on. i better start with what morris johnson's foreign sex really is trusted in most go to the russian foreign minister of prove it, prove the negative that russia is not going to invade your grade. well, you know, all the time that she's not going to be made ukraine. i wonder how much time the foreign secretary needs to get convinced that oppression is not within the plan. so the kremlin, i recall that they keep talking about the asian already

a couple of months. and i definitely didn't really wanted to wait and she would have done it in a very different fashion. and we would have probably seen a covert operation, a surprise operation like surprises and apparently, since there's no invention invasion of this stage show, she means something better there. ah, but so our media in nato nations tell us. that's why the reason the didn't was because she didn't being told him not to join the winter olympics when vladimir putin visited mary jane. yeah, that is the that's, that's a, is it? yeah, it's a very convincing argument. was a to tell you that if you look back into a recent crisis, all of them will, many of them actually happened during the olympic games. that was the case in 208. when the actually tried to use military means in order to recapture south our c t m,

which provoked a war in the south caucasus. and that was the case in 2014 when we had the olympics in. so she and there was a mutiny in the key of a crisis of 2014 a. so olympics it seems to be a very good cover for any kind of risk or activities. if nothing happens, i think we can stay, you know, more or less assured that nothing is a likely to happen. and they know, i think that any cost benefit analysis would suggest that a war with ukraine is not. you know, just that has been said repeatedly, but the 1000 troops are on standby. or as johnson does announce sanctions, i've been ready, johnson saying that russia wants to redraw the security map of europe. what did you

make of in my 6 intelligence that was d classified here in britain saying that the event, mariah ukrainian and be actually banned in russia, was a de facto russian agent, being prepared to take power and give well, i'm sure that we will see more for we, chunk of last year while she should, he should deny it. frankly, i don't see how it can be exercised. if you look at the current government to kind of what i was say about the union state about, well, i didn't of the last year i have political legitimacy. i don't think that any of in poster any potential for leader brought to crane on our, with the russian troops is likely to get ability and legitimacy great in society.

and i think that everybody in the government should know that or so, i doubt that i do so something that the government is conspiring to right now. well, president, he has warned that nato nations not to cause panic to obviously the gradient economy. and he's also, i think, the deputy defense minister of ukraine, hannah and molly are said, what are all these review s claims and reports of officials being rude customer, reuters, cnn that their blood supply is being exported there. what, what is the future of moscow have relations? it seemed that then he was talking with mackerel, perhaps about some kind of tool with moscow. well, i think you don't need the positional cost. it's clear on ukraine, it wants to comply with the provisions. so that means agreements and that has

always been the position taken by the kremlin. i think the concern is that the kind of leadership might be tempted to use military means in order to resolve the problem. and this is clearly at large for the kremlin, because there are almost a 1000000 of citizens right now. i reside in don't boss. i am definitely on the rational which into, into here, you know, to protect are these people will be very strong. why do you think, why do you think it is that even in a donation, obviously they supported the means. agreements are validated by un security council resolution to, to do and yet self thomas regions. the gans don't, don't bass, they don't broadcast about the media about what we, what the responsibilities of kids are in the means. agreements at all. well my take

is the western sympathetic to you for they want to demonstrate the solidarity with the leadership. and maybe they believe at least some people in the west believe that the means agreements are not fair. 2 of them are they were signed by bipolar shankar with a gun oriented to his forehead. and therefore, ukraine has the right to ignore, or at least to a wise the means agreements to it's like and that's how it stands right now. but if you put yourself into pollutants shoes, you should ask yourself, why should i allow your pain to change the provisions of the means? agreements? if they do not like it and keep, after all, you know, they sign the agreements and they're supposed to comply with the agreements, even if they don't like it. that's what, which in all of us for us to i presume,

i mean, joe biden. the said the old and said that no extreme to it finished, i presume he doesn't. just one doesn't alternative russian energy resources through the existing bi blinds in ukraine as an alternative. he wants joe german chancellor shoals to start buying frack gas from the united states. do you think german john social is persuaded? not sure about that, at least unless something really dramatic happens and you create your own ukraine. my guess is that germany will try to defend the project, argue that this is a commercial project. and also that the russian gas, the russian pipeline gas is cheaper than american l. n. g. and besides, there is no guarantee that the united states will shoot this guess to germany, because many of american producers are more interested in exploring markets in asia,

where markets are growing in germany is not exactly the case. so it's a question to what extent the united states canada place as the main supplier of a gas to germany and to europe. but i'm sure that to germany will try to decrease its dependence on there. i guess it will try to go on with the screen transition in just a matter of time. it will definitely take a couple of years, but maybe a couple of decades to get to carbon neutrality. but i think that germany is firmly committed to this goal, which will hopefully reach maybe by mid century and make trouble that fatty barrel runs the international energy agency. the executive director says the up even of the energy market. any of people has more consequences for russia than for the european union? well, i see that there is

a situational fainter dependence on russia depends on european markets. and though russia tries to diversify, they increase up guess shipments to china, but still, i think europe remains and will remain the main market south for, for the russian pipeline. guess, as far as europe is concerned. ok. well i think that to right now guys fall off maybe covers about a 3rd something close to one 3rd to all of your appeal. i guess i think that this share my jo, shrink box still your will continue to ban to the russian case for some time at least has in the persian government damage. russian business hasn't been a whole failure of diplomacy by the russian government here. the sanctions regime that exists that learn the ones that are threatened, or as junction and talking about the trilateral group with poland and ukraine to

fight to russia and almost daily reports here in major countries of russian attempt to the aggression we've had script and developing the i know both a denied by the russian government to do the bridge fund for an office is russian diplomacy in crisis? well, i think that depends on what priorities are actually diplomacy has if you assume that today security is more important than prosperity i, it's about saliva rather than about development. that the international system will continue to be very volatile. that i will see more crisis ahead of us that we will see arms rates and proliferation and regional conflicts and things like that. and then i think which is right because he clearly laces,

security above economic interests. you press you that we are moving in the direction of you are globalization, are you from, with in the direction of our ok so far out and how much if you believe that protectionism and nationalism are done or almost done, then probably we can argue that g is wrong and his priorities are not correct, but you know, the jury is still in session. we simply don't know what's going to happen. and i know for my chancello of germany, angela merkel argued that leave in a different world. if you remember her famous statement that he lived in a different universe, one can say yes, this is right, but it is still an open question. who is universe universe is morial questions or

that of angular merkel? yeah, i spent a lot could else care about the beneficiaries of all this current crisis. obviously arms companies, but also the relationship between making and most good as mean dog climate change, helping russia in terms of the thawing of ice in the largest country in the world. is that the, the new century then must go managing the global south against native? well, i hope not. i hope that we are not going to see a lot of cheap. it is very difficult to preserve the old hierarchy in the international system. it's very difficult to mobilize allies where we'll see a lot of the factors, a lot of it, any gate leaders, are trying to play their own games. a look at turkey, for example, you know, who is out, and i got a loyal ally, all the united states as

a member of the nature alliance, or is he a partner, mr. cochin and part no annual leaders? are there is no clear answer the question. likewise, you look at, you know, i think that it is unrealistic to expect to even get to take sides by india will continue to be a part of the shunt hi corporation organization. the banks at the same time buy to continue to be a part of what i will continue to pursue. it's a partner relations with united states. so it is very difficult to envisage. and you are agent declarative. something like what was saw in the middle of the last century. i think the system will be a much more complex. and in certain ways, much less predictable and more controversial. well, they'll both be buying the s 400, so i came in here. doug j. good enough. thank you. thank you. that's have in the

show will be back on monday, 11 years to the danger back to president ben alley of turn is yet lead demonstrations in his country to find refuge in u. s. u k, almost by saudi arabia. mounting the start of the so called spring until then keep in touch, my role as social media. let us know if you think russia will invade you create a mediterranean is the world's most over fish. see unsustainable exploitation of its fish dogs, which maureen biodiversity under great thread, a quote on us for sure you understand the system because our system, i'm not going to pull nicky, careful with tech and want to put our lives despite the ease. promise is to end over fishing by 2020. the situation is changing to slow. well,

i'm very disappointed with that they basically in public interest. they also do know in the interest of the official is the only interest of the fishery and the facial and the only ones in danger. the fishermen also at risk of losing all the parking lot of them before they get to them about that. i'm with the bubble when i get them with liberty, i'm viewership with . people don't use big claim for crime, for this very reason. the highest percentage in global prime data employ big point peak several years ago at around one and a half percent. and then numbers gone down to under one half of one percent. it's not really practical for criminals to use. big kline, that's just

a point. mainstream media uses a incorrectly ah, it is likely to begin with aerial bombing and missile attacks that could obviously kill civilians without regard to their nationality. while washington vividly depicts what the alleged russian invasion of ukraine will look like. quest the media speculates all the exact date, they think it will happen, that those roster continues to. it's all reports as baseless propaganda. the prime minister has intentionally stigmatized and divided canadians for political gain. canadian politicians accused justin trudeau verifying freedom convoy demonstrators for his own ends. as the p. m threatened severe measures against protest as the u. s. as will wander, could prosecute russians involved in the controversy surrounding rushing, vegas gay to camila.