a dare to ask in ah, the leaders of russia and the us hold crisis? so i made tensions over ukraine and divisions on security policy. french police via tear gas to break up freedom convoy raleigh. as central powers is blocked off with checkpoints, and ahmed vehicles where you can see the tear gas is coming towards us now. launched by the police just behind. they were trying to control the ground and over in canada where the movement started. security forces that facing off against hundreds of truck is blocking the ambassador bridge. a key border crossing with the us. well those the headlines is 7 am must sunday morning moscow time.

excuse me. that's all from me, pete. the scott rory, sushi will be here with the weekly. they are not in about an hour, whatever you're up to. i hope you're having a great weekend with i'm action or touch any watching going on the ground coming up with the show, with even president zelinski, imploring nato nations not to so panic in ukraine. what happened to the imminent russian invasion that some oil analysts believe, will spike crude to $120.00 a barrel after you guys aren't tech adrenal trust. accused of lying and more to

will nato nation media appearing to relish a story that can mean world war 3. the only winners arms companies and leaders like morris johnson, who face the prospect of a police interrogation. here in london, we examine both sides of the ukraine crisis. all the same, all coming up in today's going underground at 1st is both ukrainian and russian president try to ease fears of a russian invasion of ukraine. nato nation leaders embroiled in domestic political battles at home, heightened fears of a war with moscow. joining me now from here in london to discuss the way out of this crisis is the biographer, john maynard keynes, lord cadell sky emeritus professor of political economy working diversity. thank you so much and looks good, else you for coming on to the joe biden administration kind of flip flops at the invasion was imminent. now it's any day boss. johnson's foreign secretary list, trusting russia denials about invading ukraine or false, or at least leverage has to prove it. i'm sure your take on this week's events. i was a bit or ask 1st. well, i, i think the, you know,

there stoking up the tension on, but i mean, in a way i, i think the west is at the moment and particularly, but it's a sort of hum, for example, where we're promised legislation which will produce heavy sanctions within 24 hours, if there's one soldier that crosses russian soda crosses the ukranian frontier, i mean, that's kind of, you know, racking up tension because i rushes always denied that she has any intention of invading the cray. and this is almost goading. i mean it's, it's, it's very disturbing because i'm a, in a way it's its brightness, attempt to take a lead in an issue which it's not really concerned with because it's not part of the normandy process. it's not part of mens, it's,

it's really it's really trying to hold nato together, make nato into, into, you know, the, the main, the main point where is in fact this is a ukraine, russian issue. primarily. i mean, why do you think because there aren't heeding the words of president zalinski, who is alarmed by the of the fact of evacuation of diplomatic personnel from here. and i suppose the impact on ordinary ukrainians economically by all this panic. yeah, well they want, they, i mean, i think it's very hard. i think, i think, you know, looking at it from brightness, point to view, they are out of the main negotiation. they're not part of the real diplomatic settlements have to be primarily between ukraine and russia.

and america and russia, france and germany will play an important diplomatic role. britain is not part of that, but he wants to get in on the action in a way. and it wants to play the car to the champion of nature against russian aggressive designs. and so that's the way it gets into the action. but i think it's highly counterproductive. i mean, i wish the british government would say very, very little and leave the, the, negotiate the negotiations to the parties, mainly concern, which are russia, ukraine, germany, very important. and the united states. when i just say let's, let's go to the united states and i should say it's cross political spectrum here. all voices around the house, kids tama, went to brussels this week to talk to nato as devoris johnson. as for joe biden, he has said with a love sholtes,

i think standing next to him that the north stream too, has to be stopped, will be stopped germany more circumspect. i'm sure that would just mean that the russian energy resources would go through the existing pipeline in ukraine, rather than nordstrom, it's still russian energy. and i don't know how he says how he thinks that the united states will stop it. germany wants to go for i mean, i don't know what that means. we will stop it. we can stop it. there may be some legal grounds for for intervention, but i don't, i don't see how else united states can stop it. and biden's position is, is quite ambiguous. i mean, he's got a much more warlike congress behind him than he himself. i think a fails. and of course, and the other thing is the term, the interesting thing is that trump said he wanted the united states to leave

nature. ah, and you know, in a way the united states is reassessing, its position. i'm in the world. and that should be an opportunity for some diploma . i think i think trump back down on that eventually saying that was a threat eventually, incorrectly back down the fence. that was his instinct. that was his instinct. while the outcome, assuming it's not going to be terrible casualties and world war 3, de facto as been good for arms companies obviously are who are benefiting from all this material and the big outcome the drawing together in moscow in bay ging do not think that nato understands that or is, does nature want dresser in china ever closer relationship? because clearly that's happening on your, you're asking for people to be rational. and that of course, is a very optimistic view of the way international affairs are conducted. there are

rational elements and of course it is hopeless to drive russia into the hands of china. i mean, that's a real triumph ironically, isn't it a western diplomacy? but, but what the point i want to make and you know, people have been talking about possible neutralization of ukraine and finland as ation as a word that's been used. i've been looking at the case of finland and, you know, the things established a modus vivendi with the soviet union without any help from the west. it was the skill of their own leadership and what they decided they were the conditions of their independence. and you know, i'm looking for some initiative by pray. i mean, i don't know, i don't know what, what negotiations are going on between ukraine and russia. i'm not privy to that, but it's some, some so some of that solution has to lie with ukrainians themselves. what kind of

relationship do they want with russia, which is consistent with their independence. and i got a feel for that. i mean, you crane isn't to united country finland was more or less united things also for the russians. and i'm impressed with the cost of trying to occupy them. but i mean, i'm not, i'm not aware what you praying, reaction is, and i don't think the other countries, they're interested in general security, especially germany, france. but they're not the main actors here. i mean, it's got to be ukraine and russia decide that their relationship together and, and that also means the kremlin has to be cautious. i mean, it's very easy to be goaded into action when you want action, really when it's not in your best interest. so everyone has to be coo and they have

to think it through. but the main point truly is that you is ukraine, russian relationship. that seems to me absolutely central. i don't know. well that's been discussed much in, in, in, in russia. but that's the key to it. well, i mean have leverage said that the kind of talk are being used. ruins of, of the gerbils textbook, textbook and propaganda when it comes to security agreements in, in europe, you know, a form a specialized foreign office. david clark says it's bad, we got ourselves into a situation now where our ability to respond to what pigeon is doing is damaged by wounds inflicted ourselves politically. this is not a government that's well place to take a lead. the current immediate domestic convicts is of a government in trouble. a government with a track record, frankly, of engineering, sensational news interventions in order to distract and reflect from their own difficulties. lever also said that the evacuation diplomatic stove could mean

a full flag that was echoing the american accusations of a russian full flag that could kick off conflict. yeah, well, both sides really are accusing the other of exploiting domestic difficulties. and there's an element of truth. i mean, when, when, when, when david clark, i think you quoted says it's johnson's or difficulties have weakened our ability, what does our me, oh, you are. i mean, britain hasn't got any, any huge ro there. he's talking on behalf of nature. at the same time, it's also clear that president putin has political problems. i mean the, the level of his, the level of the opposition has been rising. so politicians use always use political. they make use of political motive. their motives are political,

as well as motives of principle and higher things. and i think you got to take both of those into account. you know, they've got to be statesman like both sides. very statesman. because otherwise, things could escalate out of control without any one intending. what do you think the media's role is being in the all of this at the moment as regards echoing, yeah. in britain it's been disastrous. you know, there is a co lo b in bert, very strong. it's got support in the united states. i didn't think united states is actually the leader, the cone, or lockheed congress maybe. and of course, ukrainian lobby in washington. there, there is one there as well. but, but a but it's the media hadn't played a very, very good row. i found it quite hard to get stuff in the british press,

which takes russian security ah, concerns seriously. and it's a, it's hard to place these things. i mean, i, i succeed, but you know, with, with difficulty. so there's a cold war. there's a cold war atmosphere, but it could run out of control if it was allowed to. and that's why it's very important to diplomats and states. one must start talking with each other, and again, i am besides the point, ukrainians must start talking to russia. but i mean, what do you think about the absolute support that the british labor party is giving for board johnson's position? i think it's an example of the official attitude. it is the one that they feel that in this crisis there should be a national solidarity. behind this policy, all are threatening russia with sanctions and severe

sanctions. but you say to me, it's not the truck chilion moment. you know, in the truck, surely and moment britain has to unite to defend itself against aggression. it's, it's a mad conversation. russia is not threatening britain, it's not a security threat to britain. therefore, why they, why are they why they are all uniting as though it were? so i think the labor parties actually misconstruing the function of a good opposition at this time, which is to queried the premises of the government's policy. and it's left to a few of us to do that. not many and difficult if you're in parliament, because then people might say, oh, you just pray, rush for full stop. we'll get else the thank you. thank you. after the

break, mutual defense, so mutual destruction is named to a relic of the cold war pushing for conflict in ukraine. all this a more can we only part to have going on the ground with algorithms and neural networks have been following us everywhere. we look online because our relationships are what matters most us and that's how we find meaning and how we make sense of our place in the silicon valley. see, don't mention in that slick presentations. however, other ghost workers who train the software humans are involved in every step of the process. when you're using anything online. what we're sold, as is, miracle of automation behind your screen. it's

a long ruble workforce that feeds algorithms for next to nothing. and a very good day, i could do $5.00 now. a really bad day. i can, you can use workers are invisible by design. it's about labor costs, but it's also about creating layers of weston responsibility between those who solicit this kind of work and need it. and those who do it. and welcome back and bought one of the show we spoke to lord cadell sky award winning biographer of the late john minot canes, about a way out of the crisis in ukraine. and joining me now from moscow is under a quarter of the director general of the russian international affairs council. thank you so much direct general for coming on. i better start with what turbos johnson's foreign check realist trust that in moscow to the russian foreign minister again, lever of prove it, prove the negative that russia is not going to invade you. great. well, you know,

all the time, i can that trash is not going to be made ukraine. i wonder how much time the foreign secretary needs to get convinced that oppression is not within the plan. so the kremlin, i recall that they keep talking about the russian asian lady a couple of months. and i definitely didn't really wanted to wait and she would have done it in a very different fashion. we would have probably seen a covert operation, a surprise operation like surprises and apparently since there is no invention, innovation at this stage show me something better different. but so our media in a donations tell us, that's why the reason the didn't was because she didn't being told him not to join the winter olympics when vladimir putin visited mary jane. that that is the that's,

that's a bit. is it? yeah, it's a very convincing argument was so i have to tell you that if you look back into recent crisis, all of them will, many of them actually happened during the olympic games. that was the case in 208. when the actually try to use military means in order to recapture south our c t m, which provoked a war in the south caucasus. and that was the case in 2014 when we had the lympics in. so she and there was a mutiny in key of a crisis for 2014. so olympics, it seems to be a very good cover for any kind of risk or activities. if nothing happens, i think we can stay, you know, more or less assured that nothing is likely to happen. and they know,

i think that any cost benefit analysis would suggest that a war with u. k is not, you know, actually just that has been said repeatedly, but the 1000 troops are on standby. or as johnson does announce sanctions and been ready, johnson saying that russia wants to redraw the security map of europe. what did you make of a, my 6 intelligence that was declassified here in britain saying that the evan, mariah ukrainian and p actually band in russia was a de facto russian agent, being prepared to take power and give well, i'm sure that we will see more for we charge you create a list. yeah. well he should, he should deny job. frankly, i don't see how it can be exercised. if you look at the current government to kind of what i was say about the union state about, well,

i didn't of the last year has fallen to legitimacy. i don't think that any of in poster any potential for leader brought to crane on now are with the russian troops is likely to get ability and legitimacy great in society. and i think that everybody in the government should know that or so, i doubt that it is so something that the government is conspiring to right now. well, presidents, he has warned nato nations not to cause panic to obviously the gradient economy. and he's also, i think, the deputy defense minister of ukraine, hannah and molly are said, what are all these review s claims and reports of officials being rural customer? reuters, cnn that their blood supply is being exported there. what, what is the future of moscow have relations?

it seems that then he was talking with mackerel, perhaps about some kind of tool with moscow. well, i think you don't need the positional cost. it's clear on ukraine, it wants to comply with the provisions. so that means agreements and that has always been the position taken by the kremlin. i think the concern is that the kind of leadership might be tempted to use military means in order to resolve the problem. and this is clearly at large for the kremlin, because there are almost a 1000000 of citizens right now. i reside in don't boss. i am definitely on the rational which into, into here, you know, to protect or these people will be very strong. why do you think, why do you think it is that even in a donation, obviously they supported the means agreement,

so validated by un security council resolution to, to do and yet fellow told them as regions the gans don't, don't bass, they don't broadcast about the media about what the, what the responsibilities of kids are in the means. agreements at all. well my take is the western sympathetic code to, to you for they want to demonstrate the solidarity with the printer little ship. and maybe they believe at least some people in the west believe that the means agreements are not fair. 2 of them are they were signed by portion car with a gun oriented to cheese for head. and therefore, why ukraine has the right to ignore, or at least to a why the music agreements to it's like and that's how it stands right now. but if you put yourself into pollutants shoes, you should ask yourself,

why should i allow you came to change the provisions of the means agreements. if they do not like it and keep, after all, you know, they sign negative months and they're supposed to comply with the agreements, even if they don't like it. that's what we can always refer us to. i presume me, joe biden. the said that the oven said that no extreme to it finish. i presume he doesn't. just one doesn't alternative russian energy resources through the existing bi blinds in ukraine as an alternative. he wants jo, german chancellor shoals to stop buying frack gas from the united states. do you think german john social to persuaded? not sure about that, at least unless something really dramatic happens and you create your own ukraine. my guess is that germany will try to defend the project, argue that this is a commercial project and also that the russian gas,

the russian pipeline gas is cheaper than american l. n g. and besides, there is no guarantee that the united states will shoot this guess to germany, because many of american producers are more interested in exploring markets in asia, where markets are growing in germany is not exactly the case. so it's a question to what extent the united states canada place as the main supplier of a gas to germany and to europe. but i'm sure that to germany will try to decrease its dependence on there. she guessed it will try to go on with the screen transition in just a matter of time. it will definitely take a couple of years, but maybe a couple of decades to get to carbon neutrality. but i think that germany

is firmly committed to this goal, which will hopefully reach maybe by mid century and make trouble that fatty barrel runs the international energy agency. the executive director says the upheaval of the energy market. any of people has more consequences for russia than for the european union? well, i see that there is a situational, fainter dependence. our ocean depends on european markets and those russia tries to diversify that they increase up guess shipments to china, but still, i think europe remains and really made the main market tough for, for the ocean pipeline. guess, as far as europe is concerned. ok. well, i think that right now guys form may be covers about that 3rd, something close to one 3rd to all of your pin, i guess important. think that this share my just shrink box.

still your will continue to been to the russian case for some time, at least hasn't the persian government damage russian business hasn't had been a whole failure of diplomacy by the russian government here. the sanctions regime that exists that learn the ones that are threatened, or it's just, you know, talking about the trilateral group with poland and ukraine, to fight to russia and almost daily reports here in major countries of russian attempts at aggression. we've had script and the, i know both a denied by the russian government to do the bridge fund for an office is russian diplomacy in crisis? well, i think that depends on what priorities are actually diplomacy has if you assume that today security is more important than prosperity and it's about survival rather than about development. that

the international system will continue to be very volatile. that i will see more crisis ahead of us that we will see arms rates and proliferation and our regional conflicts and things like that. and i think which is right because he clearly laces, security above economic interests. you press you that we are moving in the direction. you are globalization, you from within in the direction of ok so far out and how much if you believe that protection is, and nationalism are done or almost done, then probably we can argue that g is wrong and his priorities are not correct. but, you know, the jury is still in session. we simply don't know what's going to happen. and

we're all for my chancellor of germany. angela merkel argued that leave in a different world. if you remember her famous statement that he lived in a different universe. one can say yes, this is right, but it is still an open question. who is universe universe is morial hooton's or that of angle america? yeah, i spoke to lots get else. kay. about the beneficiaries of all this current crisis, obviously arms companies, but also the relationship between mae ging and moscow. there's been talk of climate change helping russia in terms of the falling of ice in the largest country in the world. is that the, the new century then moscow may jing the global south against native? well, i hope not. i hope that we are not going to see a new people. i don't see it is very difficult to preserve the old hierarchy

in the international system. it's very difficult to mobilize allies. we will see a lot of the factors. a lot of any gates leaders are trying to play their own games. a look at turkey, for example, you know, who is and i got a loyal ally of the united states as a member of the nature alliance, or is he a partner of mr cochin and partner, or any leaders? and there is no clear answer the question. likewise, you look at india, you know, i think that it is not a realistic to expect to get to take sides by india will continue to be a part of the shunt hi corporation organization auto banks. at the same time by to continue to be a part of what it will continue to pursue. it's a partner relations with united states. so it is very difficult to envisage. and

you are agent declarative. something like what was saw in the middle of the last century. i think the system will be much more complex and in certain ways much less predictable and more controversial. well, they'll both be buying the s 400, so i came in here and jake go, no thank you. thank you. that's ever the show will be back on monday, 11 years to the day major back to president benner lee of tunisia for demonstrations in his country to find refuge in u. s. u k. arms by saudi arabia, marking the start of the circled arab spring until then keep in touch by roller social media and let us know if you think russia will invade ukraine. ah.