so says he is on from the signing of the maastricht treaty that established the european union as the economic superpower losing it to muscle after arguably succumbing to u. s. influence over russia, ukraine, amid fresh dispute of the post bracket. northern ireland protocol, we ask you nato interlocutor and the former special assistant, the u. s. president, barack obama, and it's 70 years since the then princess elizabeth was told she was queen amidst the brutal ma my rebellion in kenya. but his kenny are really free from british colonialism. 59 years of independence and still over 50 percent of children in kenya and living in poverty. we investigate all this more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st that he has this month, the maastricht treaty was signed by 12 nations establishing the european union and paving the wave, the single currency, the your own of that he has on it's deemed in economic superpower, while arguably dividing many on its future existence. in recent days though, there had been fresh disputes are v post bricks at northern ireland protocol with the u, calling for suspension. meanwhile, standing firm on its position of a russian tensions with non

e u. member ukraine will. joining me now from chevy chase in maryland is professor charles cop, jan senior fellow and director of european studies at the council of foreign relations. thank you so much for coming back on 30 years. of course, people may remember your boss, president obama, when you a national security council, european affairs, a direct era trying to get britain to remain in the european union. what do you think? 30 as a success? you know, if we had this conversation 5 years ago and i would, i would have said, europe looks pretty shaky and match because you know, breaks it was on the horizon in france, you had been national rally and germany, the alternatives for, for germany. and then you have the pandemic and one kind of said, whoa, the populists are gonna, are going to prevail. yes, breaks it has happened. it's been pretty ugly. but the you, i think, is, is in remarkably good shape. i'm pretty up beat about development on the continent

in part because the center has hell. we just had a normal election in germany, italy, it wasn't pretty. but martha rella, the president druggie the prime minister, have agreed to stay put. i think it's probably likely that my crime is going to be re elected. so the center is holding. you've had a mutual ization of death that nobody expected to try to get your economies back up on their feet. immigration is under control again, not pretty bribing air to want to keep syrians in turkey, bribing libyans to keep africans in libya, but you know, it's for now working. so and then the final thing is, is the relationship with the united states is back in pretty good shape. europeans are happy that biden is in office. i think everybody is asking for how long is he

going to lose? the house in november is a republican, maybe even trump going to be reelected, but at least for now we're seeing a level of us european solidarity. that's pretty impressive. okay, well i, i should just say that obviously the german government certainly schultz is free as a local denies. he bribed anyone and cause you k payments to parts johnson completely rejects that breakfast, has been ever, i think, any kind of a mess. but i mean, i suppose, i should say that the off to used phrase that the you prevented a war and that's not true. you just love your, of course, was a war when the european union was around. well, i think you have to give your a pretty high marks for preserving peace in large swats of europe. and the border between france and germany wide open the border between germany and poland

open. it's worked, integration has largely achieved its objectives. has europe emerged as a geopolitical heavyweight? now, is mac crohn trying to address that issue? yes. is he going to succeed? probably not any time soon. but the bottom line here is that you have in europe an integrated market. pretty strong political unity. it is one of the most successful political revolutions, if you will, of the 20th century. and of course, there are these tensions now, as regards the know the non protocol, what do you think? the view is in the bible administration, joe biden, as we sometimes mentioned in this program, there were room. is that the ira a rebel songs sung at his house in new jersey? in the old days, you think he's going to definitely take the you side over the unilateral decision, apparently in the last few days by the british government to break the northern

ireland protocol. well, you know, having worked in the white house during the obama era was it was pretty clear that obama, by and others were, were not very keen on braxton. and you'll remember that president obama or the u. k . and tried to say, hey, don't do this, this is not a good idea. not sure whether that helped or hurt, but the bottom line is this really you who is bricks. it, that's what you're saying there. now i'm not going to own that one, but we can take that discussion offline. the, you know, i think that at things are trending in a, in a reasonably good direction on the, on the northern lion too. you know, we saw a cabinet reshuffle not that long ago, which i think was in part about johnson's desire to find some way forward on, on northern ireland biden wants that to happen. he does not want to see some kind

of a bus stop that it affects the relationship between the republic and northern ireland . so stay tuned. we're not across the finish line yet, but i have a sense that the british government wants to put this behind it and met some kind of compromise deal with the e. u is forthcoming. well, of course, for a strong citizen battled because of a police investigation, but any fears you might have had about britain looking to the far east, perhaps suddenly to china. ukraine seems to show that the nato alliance. certainly the lines between the meeting and members, britain in the united states never been stronger over ukraine. well, you know, it's, i worried in the aftermath of breakfast it, that britain would turn in were, in part because i think breaks it was the result of a somewhat isolationist turn within the british electorate. but that has not

happened. in fact, in some ways, johnson has attempted to compensate for britain's departure from you by trying to punch above its weight elsewhere. all the focus deal the submarine deal with all trail. yeah. britain flexing its muscles in ukraine, sending a warship to the black sea. now standing shoulder to shoulder in trying to push back against putin's threats to ukraine. so i would say that right now the u. s. u k relationship despite the differences over breakfast it is, is in pretty good shape. and that london is turning out to be the partner that washington had hoped for. is that going to continue? we'll have to see, but so far so good. i mean, watching the progress of the by ministrations a raising of the issue of ukraine. what have you, what have you made of it? oversee the by to ministration came to russian invasion was imminent,

then dropped the word imminent aud pieces of intelligence. actually some of it repeated from, from britain, the british intelligence, claiming that a person actually banned from russia was being prepared to take power in give very odd bits of intelligence being reported by all the newspapers. how do you think the by demonstrations handling all of us? i think the bible folks have broadly gotten it right now. nobody knows, probably including himself, whether russia going to invade ukraine, but they've got enough force on the border, including ships in the black sea that one has to take very seriously the prospect of a huge russian invasion that would perhaps include besieging sacking the government and install out of that, obviously the russians deny any intention of doing that. well, what would be the point? well, you know, this is, this is where i have a hard time figuring out exactly what, what the point is in the sense that,

you know, a potent is a trouble maker. putin has invaded or tried to interfere in most of his, his neighboring countries from georgia to ukraine, nego or no car bach, moldova, he went into syria. but these actions have generally been low cost, low risk, a low cost, low risk operation in ukraine doesn't really get him much. ok, so let's say he wants to annex done boss, or he wants to connect don boss to crimea. he still loses the rest of ukraine. so if his goal here is to try to pull the country back into rushes here influenced, he really does have to invade the country. that's a huge tor to be near him after he's got the stomach for that. so that he'd be nearer weston nato nations. i mean, i have to say on, on those different things, syria, i'm sure the russian government would immediately say that there was british,

in american backing for the rebels of the ground to go to carry back. fusion intervene to solve a, as a by john and armenia, and as regards don, bass and elegance can so and you know that even western powers of ad through accept the un security council resolution on the minsk agreements, 2202. they've accepted it to them, it's agreements is fine for russia, which isn't even mentioned in the agreement that you don't see that. and you're talking about isolation earlier. and i suppose the trump element here, and certainly your cable channels, like fox news, saying this is about biden's presidency in taxes, worried about mid terms. and it goes, boris johnson here, being investigated by the police. well, you know, in terms of, of what rush has been up to in its neighborhood. i think the facts speak for themselves and russians ought to look in the mirror and ask themselves,

why is it that everyone who lives near us wants to join nato? and i think it's for 2 reasons. russia keeps interfering sending troops and it's neighbors, and they want some protection number to everything else being equal. i think people want to live in a democracy, not in a repressive autocracy. they don't want to worry that if they he got, they're going to get poisoned or thrown in jail. that's why i think so many countries have been interested in joining nato. where is, is driving right now. i think he is engaging in dog diplomacy with the europeans. i mean, almost every day somebody is flying to either kiev or moscow. the channels of communication are open. there is a real serious effort to get diplomacy to avoid a war, including by looking at the mentor agreements that you just mention. but there's also a realistic assessment that the diplomacy might fail. and that's why biden is taking

2 additional steps. one is putting more troops in eastern europe to tell the russians, hey, you don't like ne, that, well, it's going to get worse. you're going to have a lot more capability on the eastern flank than you did before. and number 2, putting up in the window very significant sanctions, including against the inner circle, which should get him to ask, is it really worth it? do i really want to suffer the economic punishment that will come with an invasion of ukraine? pressik up general. stop you there. more from the former special assistant of u. s. president barack obama, after this break plus did then princess elizabeth know about the mon, my rebellion with $90000.00. to me have been killed, maimed or tortured by british imperialist, as she was told 70 years ago, that she was to become queen dollars more coming up and bought 2 of going underground.

ah oh, driven by drill shaped bankers and those with dares sinks. we dare to ask ah, much longer can we take the u. s. and u. k. seriously, there war of words is dangerous and reckless. the rest of nato and even ukraine are much more restraint. but there's a count of deborah ukraine. it will be a conflict washington in london,

english. he promot welcome back. i'm still here with professor charles cap, john senior fellow and director of european studies at the council of foreign relations, and form a special assistant to you as president barack obama. vladimir putin was elected democratically and of course you, as you know, the russians are very quick to talk about human rights and about guantanamo bay, still being opened. you mentioned sanctions. do you believe this sort of economic warfare is good travel bands as it freezes? mastercard, visa, blacklist, i think that was around your time. it was around 500 entities between 200-2021. do you s treasury's has 933 percent increase would impact the sanctions have on russia? well, you know, biden has, has explicitly stated that no us combat troops are going to ukraine, that the united states,

as they know partners are not going to go to war with russia over ukraine. so the question then is, what should be the response? if russia goes and invades it's neighbor, and the main response is sanctions, that's how you create a disincentive. both deter, to try to get them to set, to decide not to go in and to put pressure on russia. if it does go in these are, these are major sanctions, you know, after the 2014 events, the annexation of crimea interference and don bos sanctions were imposed, but they really didn't go deep into the russian. i mean, i know you dropped. i mean, i don't know actions are, would be like that, but they are much more far reaching than 20. 14 people can watch are. john bolton trumps the national security adviser about sanctions and cuba let alone all the other countries. i don't know how many countries the u. s. know, sanctions in the relevance here, of course is to this foreign affairs magazine piece. you wrote that one us priority

was to help manage china's rise of the global stage. the usa should formulate a strategy to peel russia away from china. as we know that the sanctions this economic growth has just strengthen the relationship most couldn't be jasmine. yes, it has. and in some ways, one negative knock on effect of sanctions is pushing russia closer to china. that happened after 2014, where we saw russia compensate for its economic isolation by trading war with russia, with china moving closer to china. if russia invades ukraine, van, i, assuming that the sanctions will push china and russia closer close together, that is something that seems to me to be unavoidable. and in my mind, does not outweigh the importance of reacting with

a serious set of sanctions against a native. what's the point, what does it, what do they do? what's the point to the sanction they, they would create number one, a deterrent putin has to ask, are russians going to be better off if we occupy ukraine and they'll be body bags coming home? you can be sure of that, and if major russian banks and companies are cut off from the west, we hear that there will be a ban on certain kinds of technologies that will make it very hard for russians to buy cell phones and other other basic electronic items, so the idea here is to create this incentives for ukraine to, to suffer a rush. where is it? where is the, where is this your sleep? if, where is this whole does use force against it? where is this hasn't worked in iran in venezuela or in syria? where is this sanction policy ever ever worked?

it's, it's worked in in iran. right? i mean, we, that we got it, we got an agreement. it looks like we may get a re start of the j c p o way. why is iran going to the negotiating table in part because they want to get out from under sanctions. ok, well i mean, a lot of people in are on arguably a saying why, why bother given of course the reneging of the un security council resolution by the trump administration. in any case, i do think her do think that if, if russia is definitely not going to invade ukraine, the sanctions are going to be in place that russia and china and the global south. because we've seen chinese massive investment all across the global south means that the european union, an u. s. power is basically on the decline now. well, you know, i think that if we do get a d escalation,

if we do avoid a major war and this would probably be the biggest war in europe since 1945, it's conceivable that you could see russia's relationship with the, with the united states, move in a better direction, maybe we can get the main sk agreement implemented. maybe the dispute over ukraine can turn into a broader discussion that would include conventional arms control that would include nuclear arms control. so it right now that doesn't seem to me very likely, but it's, it's conceivable. i also think, as i wrote in the piece that you mention, that russia is over the longer term uncomfortable in the relationship with china because it is the junior partner. and over time, i think russia will be looking for a western option because chinese power is going to make the russians uncomfortable

. yes, you're right to say that china is a rising power. it will soon have the world's largest economy. but it's important to keep in mind that if you add up the collective weight of the united states and it's democratic partners in dramatically out ways, china or a combination of russia and china, it's important to keep that in mind. and that's one of the reasons that biden has been working so hard to promote solidarity, not just with europeans, but also with south korea, japan, taiwan, australia, and democracies in east asia. professor charles scott, john, thank you. my pleasure. ah, in recent days the u. k. monarch, queen elizabeth the 2nd celebrated hood platinum, jubilee mugging. 70 years on the british throne, when she found out her father george the 6th had died. the queen was on a 4 day trip to kenya, the east african nation was declared an independent state in 90. 63 after the spark

of the mo, mo uprising johnny me now from the capital of kenyan i robe, you senior lecture from day star university, a member of gender africa, dr. wendy and joy. thank you so much on the ever coming back on. yeah, britain. her big celebrations for the platinum jubilee. she was told she was queen at tree top. say that i'm the senator. shut down hotel now. i'm surprised. no big mention that what perhaps a 160000 were being held in u. k. concentration camps at the same time. yeah. yeah. during their mama i insurrection against their colonial government. so it's kind of ironical that it would elaborate, mentioning, at the circumstances in which she became queen. and in fact the president's office was also celebrating that event. so it's kind of irony call, although of course as we noted that the people that took over a drama kenyata or his son of course is now president distance himself big time

from ma ma just remind is because i mean what 90000 may have been killed maimed or, or tortured. yeah, yeah, i'm not sure about the numbers that was a huge number in millions in and sensation and so far about die. it's about 8 years. so it was not have pretty period at the end was great, brutal. and as the canyon human rights commission of the fact, you don't know what symptomatic of the education that's happened since post independence in your country. read writing a lot about what you call a colonial education in kenya. regardless of how we are educated here in britain about colonial and imperialist atrocities. yeah, we got, i didn't education system that's more about telling us the benefits of mpeg colonialism and very little about the resistance of many, many candidates against colonialism right from the 1895. when they set

foot t and b, say that that kenya would be long period british battery company. so there have been rebellions there have been armed struggles. the one that catches the imagination, of course, is them are low because of the extent. but they're, all these rebellions are hardly talked about in the curriculum. and it's really strange that even at this level of the present, you have to go over what colonialism is with my students because they don't know, they don't know, many of the major feedback it don't even know why it was here in the 1st place. and that's a combination of the education system that we have wise. otherwise i should say one of the princess elizabeth for then princess elizabeth porters. or if he was interviewed he, he joined a rebellion after being the porter for the green 3 drops. why,

why is the educational system like that? because it was set up to proper colonial admin. so in fact, one of the ways in which the british government, one of the tactics against mount a rebellion, was to increase the number of schools, especially in central province where the larger mo, mo, was based. so the point was to get people who are it, who would not be loyal to not keep their loyalty to them. and that would support the british government. so that legacy has continued because now the people who got education, why those who, why not actual resist. and then when the camp came in and you get that the next generation to think more in terms of maintaining the colonial system that had been left behind as having a different education system that was inclusive. and that reflected our study,

but as regards imperialism. and it's a connection to racism. you've actually talked about class here. and even where the queen was staying, the princess or queen was staying working class whites. boas, of course, church was concentration camps in south africa against the white boys. there was a class system around the new key area which, you know, in the western imagination is karen blix and his wife, mischief, happy valley. those are the those are the stories of kenya, safaris. yeah. what can i was cast to be colonized by the elite of the british colonial. so other people who went to the bab brands of africa. why he's not there is people or just civil servants who are working on behalf of the state. but the people who came to kenya and settled in a new key area that you know,

you and all of those. so they came with that all day. then you know, the values of that he stop trusting. that's what they brought here. you have a problem for can, can you highest number of it on high school bureaucrats? so it was not just the i used to, it was also that you ation system. many of it on your office has had been to the public schools and to opt to breach. so from mister burns, johnson went to that school. i'm sure he'd say good, good bye. kimberly. i mean, i should ask, i mean, barbados obviously is left to commonwealth. i don't know what your views about. can you leaving the commonwealth of? would it be possible for princess elizabeth, on the 5th of february $9052.00 not to know about the mass extermination of canyon's going on at the time she was staying there. even if she knew it was inconvenient for her to know,

and that's another legacy we have in it. we have remained from britain, which is out of the special and secrecy and spin that what is more important is that you have the system in fact, and any stories that they inconvenient you just keep them under the rad, or you don't to mention them. i thought so, even if she knew it was inconvenient for empire, so it was, it was easy and they found not to know and that's, that's our legacy which we have remain even in canada right now. a lot of the problems that we have are swept under the rug and we talk elephant in the room, but we never mentioned the elephant. what is that? the, the commonwealth imperialism of the i, m f. all, all of them, all of them. you know, for example, in education i education system was, are we got a new system from the class and from i m f and world bank. all those kinds of fellows. but we can't talk about it even if it's in the documents. so when you hear

civil servants they, they behave like lord chroma, who, who wrote their handbook for civil service. they just pretend it didn't tap and they just keep away the documents. and just, you know, brand the system as efficient as efficient. and that's a british pin for you are pretty good that it's well had in government. did i? and refute all the allegations of course we invite the best of luck on the i'm after a few things don't want to enjoy a thank you. thank you very much. ever the show will be back on wednesday, 17 years to the day, the un mobilized the kyoto protocol, the international treaty, which extended the you and framework. conventional climate change until then. keep in touch by social media. let us know whether you think kenya is free from british imperialist. ah,

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