ah, ah, join me every thursday on the alex simon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess in the world of politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. ah, ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peta labelle talking at cross purposes. this is that the heart of the west narrative claiming russia plans to invade ukraine. from the russian perspective, ukraine is

a symptom of a much larger issue. nato's relentless drive eastward. there is a solution though. security for all. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, peter cousin, akin to says that he is a professor of history at american university, as well as co author with oliver stone of the untold history of the united states in jersey city. we have sarah founder, she is co director of the international action center, as well as an author and an anti war activist. and in tulsa, we crossed to jeremy whose motto he is managing, editor of cooper, action magazine across stock rolls in effect, that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it or, you know, start out with peter. i guess like waiting for godot, this invasion is something that you guys are using an atomic calendar for. i

suppose it was never going to happen to least under the conditions we have right now. but there's certainly a lot of things in play. and i look at when washington and the in london have done, they've spearheaded this year. i would it be a leap to, to say, but this was an exercising in whipping everyone into order. getting the block in line. see who's on board? who's not ok. it's a list they're going through to see the cow accountable. the in the north atlantic alliance is to washington and it's senior with london. go ahead, peter. peter, i'm glad to hear you are certainty that this was not gonna turn into military confrontation. not yet, not. i was never quite so certain in this is to me a very, very dangerous and alarming situation because it comes to the time when you ask russian relations are the worst. they've been in 60 years. and, and we've got a lot of provocations, and we've got very,

very different narratives going on here. very different definition of interest. and so biding comes to power. and he says america's back again. and we're going to mend the relations with our european allies that trump had torn asunder. and so he's trying to show unity, but he's under a lot of pressure. he's under pressure because of that nature withdraw from afghanistan. it was right to withdraw from afghanistan after 20 years. i to do it so ineptly made him look very, very weak and undermined his claim to competence. and then he's under pressure from most of the republicans, almost all of them are using any opportunity they have to undermine him to weaken him and by some of the democrats. and he made it even worse by surrounding himself . he has 16 advisors from the center for a new american security. these are the hawks and he's got a secretary of state who supported the invasion of afghanistan support the invasion

of iraq supported. the invasion of libya supported the bombing in syria when they gave him a bible back off of that. so he's surrounded by hawks now that might be a crisis of his own making in part. but i see his position as being very, very complicated and a very we can to play and he wants to unite the europeans. that's not so easy to do because they got very different interests. 41 percent of european gas comes from russia. 25 percent of european oil comes from russia. the prices have quadruple the red. over the past year there are shortages, and so they're not on the same page. so you've got friends wanting to be its own leader, their microphones, god visions of becoming a global leader. and you've got the germans shows certainly does not want to go along with can slain lord stream to and then you've got or bought the picture and

turkeys are from the united states. so biden is in a very difficult, but at least that's, that, that was what i'm trying to get. and to answer my own question, then there isn't a whole lot of unity and i'm going to this war paint and you can't do this, you know, every few months here people are going to start losing interest. sir, let me go to you because i'm one of the upsides from this ridiculous escapade that we've been going through. and it's something that i am happy about. at the end of the day, the us in the u. k, and the native more broadly is beginning to recognize that russia actually has some legitimate security interest. and that's the good thing that's come out from this. go ahead, sir. well, this is something they've always known, whether they're recognizing it now or not. but from the very beginning, this was aimed at both trying to put a straight jacket, ratcheting up all the nato alliance,

and forcing them in to an aggressive sanctioned blocking the north stream to on blocking other forms of trade. and it, and it is still not passed as a danger. i really don't know that if a false flag provocation this much build up is very dangerous. and it was all based on claiming that russian troops were moving within russia within their own borders. i mean, is that while they're not at the same time nato as an aggressive us commanded military alliance, was pumping more and more troops, a equipment naval maneuvers into the black sea sea of ross. i'm really one area after another and all of that is deliberately threatening to

russia and demand that nato go along with it. now, the other nato countries are not so sure this is in their interest. and they do know that there is a u. s. effort to tie them to us for act, oil and gas. that's really what's a lot behind this and block them from normal trade. this is also aimed at china, frankly. we shouldn't for him this make well, i mean there, and i'm glad you brought up china because of it. jeremy here. i mean, i think this, the fever dream that these hawks that peter made reference to is that they somehow believe in their own nonsense, but they somehow believe that they can knock russia out and then focus all their attention on china, which is absolutely absurd. it doesn't, it doesn't have that. that's not a clear understanding of the geopolitical situation because we've all, you haven't done anything yet, but i'm sure you'll agree with this. is that the, the continental europe has a lot more at stake when they deal with russia than the u. k. in the us go ahead,

jeremy. well, i think you're a, is, this is a major folly. i mean, you know, going back in the cold warrior kissinger and nixon work so hard to undermine the russian chinese alliance. and what we're seeing, i mean, the g meeting, you know, is probably a major historical turning point to be in the of the olympics. and i mean, the sanctions have really, you know, stars and these kind of aggressive bellicose policy that peter and sarah describing have pushed the russians and chinese into historic alliance. that's really, you know, from a u. s. vantage points, you know, may very well deal to hammer blow to the u. s. empire, certainly to the air of unilateral us power. we see coming to an end right before very eyes. and as he again is, undermine the work done and been done not to say that they, kissinger nixon were. so it's great states, and i mean they did, you know, many terrible things. and there are many do close to these. but they did understand

the danger of that ally, and you know, as far as us, our and this generation of super hard to just completely foolish and ultimately putting a dagger in the heart of the american empire. i'm glad you mentioned nixon and his darling sir peter would agree with being that you know, you being a have a great geo political mind doesn't mean that you are long on morality and unfortunately, they're very separated. but peter, nothing has been nothing. i guess that's an exaggeration very little, has been resolved here. ok, cuz i started out on a more or less optimistic note because recognition of russian security. and this is the ones that forward and something when, if you look at nato's response to russians, a letter of december 17th it was just boiler plate. they didn't even respond to that. it was just this bellicose language, reckless language here. but you know, where we're getting from, from the us, at least there are some on the,

on the margins here. is that? yeah, we can sit down, we can about this a mess, but russians in anna natal no more. they do expansion. ok. and that's adamant that is going that, that is their red line in the sand. and that's why i will agree with you in a different way. peter, is that, you know, i don't think there's an invasion now, but it doesn't mean that it's completely off the table because it is very much on the table at certain things, or nato expansion, intermediate missiles being placed in ukraine. yes. that, that, that's, that's not war. talk, that's war action. go ahead here. nato is not going to expand. may the point that shows made about a war or the possibility of a war over something that is not going to happen. doesn't make any sense. it shows that it was absurd. what are his exact words? he said that we just can't have a possible military conflict over a question that is not on the agenda. you know, these people might be hawkish,

but there is no support for nato, including ukraine, and however, but couldn't demand if getting this in writing. and he did so because as we know in 1990 when baker promised garbage of the nato would not expand one inch to the east, they never garbage. i've never got it in writing. you know, what is, is it gives me little bit of hope. is that william burns, is that his head of the cia burns was the ambassador to russia back in 2008. and in his memoir from 2 years ago, back channel, he said it quotes baker in 1990. when he was ambassador russia, he wrote back a memo after george w bush talked about nato spencer ukraine in georgia, a memo to the white house title, and yet means and yet don't cross russia's red lines. he repeats that over and over again. in his bed memoir from 2 years ago,

and he also says that one thing that unites all russians is the idea is there opposite the nato expansion. and the total rejection of the possibility of ukraine joining nato. so he hasn't been very valuable, but he may be, he's the voice of saturday and restraint among all these hawks who byron has otherwise surrounded himself with. yes, and it's interesting that what he said in his memoirs you can read in weeki leaks that was released to learn more because he was in communications with or minister love on the same issue. so chelsea manning actually released a lot of it. there you go. there you go, sir. i mean, it's interesting that we burns is mentioned here because it, how much is this domestically driven? because peter, with hinting towards it here, i mean, is this just to, to show biden is tough. you know, i'm, he's tough on the russians. i mean, we have jake, so been one of the originators of the,

of the russia gate hoax. i mean, and unfortunately, russia gate is bled in to policy needlessly. but that's the case here. so, i mean, is this just a, you know, the show biden is, is strong because even when he's trying to look strong, he's got gaps left and right, and center. go ahead, sir. well, this is another point. and different time in history and new s political and economic position is entirely different now than it was in 1990. and just to go back even to, to bankers agreement and whether it was in writing or not means nothing to the us. if an agreement isn't writing, local fish and treating a broke with a ran means nothing. the beijing occurrence, this is a 50th anniversary, they weren't gonna arm taiwan. recognize their agreements mean nothing along with literally hundreds and hundreds of trainings with the indigenous peoples of the you know, of the american. so they a little they

a break. any treaty in writing or not? i jump in here. we have to go to heartbreaking out about heartbreak. looks look and you know, i want it to rachel to stay with me. ah ah . mm. bring you the very latest every out the day this moment everyone here with

well them at the crossed up your all things considered. i'm peter bill. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah, let me go back this area. we had to go to a hard break, sir. i interrupted, you are, my apologies, please finish your point. well, the biden administration has succeeded in one thing, and that is, let's go back to brzezinski. in his 1997 booked the grand chessboard, american primacy and its geo strategic imperatives. he warned that potentially the most dangerous scenario. and he meant for us domination, the most dangerous scenario would be a grand coalition of china,

russia and perhaps a ran and an anti hedge monic. coalition, united not by ideology, but by complementary grievances. well, this is what we have today. so he has succeeded in what was the nightmare of us domination, how to keep countries divided, and he is not succeeding in uniting nato either. and in that way, really, russia's position is stronger and that they have exposed the weaknesses within nato . ah, but a more dangerous position. i can, can actually immediately break out. in other words, he us back as to the wall. well, they do something truly reckless. we shouldn't put it past them. so i don't know if the moment is past. i really don't because they're pretty desperate in what they're

doing. but certainly, i, the way this is playing out is not what i'm glad you bring that avalera because, you know, they make the, all this hoopla since the beginning of november, the russia has 800120072 whatever number you want that it's, i believe it's basically all invented hundreds of miles away from ukraine. but it's not mentioned in mainstream media that over a 100000 ukranian troops or a mass on the don bass, where we had a conflict in 2014 in 2015 and the other minsk records, which the ukrainian government refuses to commit to and jeremy, let me go to you speaking of ukraine here. what, what is ukraine gotten out of all of this here? i mean, zalinski, you know, by all accounts he didn't really play his role all that well, i mean for a comedian actor he didn't seem to know was wines very well or he was just being a comedian actor. he actually said what, what his profession does is the, you know,

say the truth in front of power because you realize the more this went on an asset values went down in ukraine. the currency went down. people don't want to fly in planes. they don't, the banking people don't want to bank with you. i mean, with friends like nato. i mean, i guess, you know, ukraine doesn't need any enemies. right now. they have gone a, a boat loads in boat loads of arms. ok. in a very volatile situation. i think everyone thinks that ukraine is a problem right now. and i think that the, you know, the, the, again, the u. k. and the u. s. it's backfired. nobody wants to get ukraine into nato. now this is what can happen. go ahead, jeremy. well yeah, i think you're right. i mean, yeah, historically you see that i mean countries, you'll make a calculation that aligns with, you know, the powerful united states is going to make things great for them. that will, you know, a particular leader thinks that's going to be his savior. but you know, if you look at history, the us will stab these leaders in the back when they're no longer useful. and yeah,

i mean, they ultimately, it could, you know, so their own demise and i think you're right, you know, ukraine's experiencing severe economic problems because of the situation. and i mean, i'm sure there's a lot of domestic unrest in the country right now. and happiness was lensky, who came in as a reformer. but i mean, i think the corruption has remained endemic. crane is ranked, i think, very close to bottom world corruption index is certainly in europe. and i think he's losing his credibility very, very quickly over this. and all that weaponry what's going to do for him in the long run. and it's terrible for the, i mean, ukraine, people, i mean, they're suffering and they're a harsh economy. they already had a huge economic inequality. and they're just getting huge amount of guns from the united states and military equipment. and that's not helping them to build the sustainable economy or society. and i think they're all the more so even after everything that's happened since 2014, and i go back to peter here, russia,

it's still ukraine's largest trading partner after everything that's happened. ok. and we have this year. i mean, one of the things that i find really revolting looking at mainstream media is that the biden's in the, in the boris johnson's of the world, they tried to pitch this is jamal freebird and democracy versus an art prosy, which is completely absurd. when you look at ukraine, you've had political party shut down, you have new them, multiple media outlet shut down by government order. you have a former president under indictment for, for treason. you have. you have major political position, figure under house arrest, also facing charges of treason. and i'm glad that jeremy brought up all the corruption. where is all the world bank? you american money gone in ukraine? nobody can show me what would good it's done except for robbing line pockets. go ahead, peter. let a 1st pick of the sarah said to refer to brzezinski is

a grand chessboard from 1997. he also says there, how do you have his reference for you? i got him all a concert until history of my book. it says ukraine is a geo political pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform russia without ukraine. russia ceases to be an empire, however, of moscow regains control over ukraine. with his 52000000 people, major resources, as well as access of black sea, russia automatically again regains the wherewithal to become a powerful imperial state, sped in europe and asia. the same point was made by libby and hadley. i mean they, they know what's at stake here. and they laid it out clearly. and there was a concerted effort to rest ukraine away from russia if financial times laid that

out back in 2013. and it said that this was years in the works and then when the e u offers that deal to ukraine for exclusive economic relation with the you put an offer is a better deal. it gives a debt, it cuts the oil prices, and he says, you can work with both sides with that's what's in ukraine's interest. ukraine should be a neutral country. you crate should disavow any interest in joining nato. and they should have friendly relations with both sides. then they can try to work on their democracy. they've got a lot of work to do at night. well the heater, but do you think the people like victorian newland and jake sullivan are going to give up ukraine? i mean it's, you know, if you look at particularly victoria newland, this is the unfinished business for her. she was one of the architects of the illegal qu, that over to a democratically elected government in february of 2014. she doesn't strike me as a person is going to call it quits. go ahead peter. now victoria newland is,

you know, she's one of those cna assessors who biden has surrounded himself with and sullivan the same. so i don't have hoped for them. i do have a little more hope for biting themselves and biden's initial response unlike stolen bergen, others was let's listen he's. he's not denied that russia has legitimate security concerns that he's willing to address. and then i talked about burns before wendy sherman, over the years has not been a hard line zealous. she's done a lot of things i don't like and agree with. but so it's, it's there's, it's clear everybody has heard what putin is saying. the world has heard that russia has a national security interest of its own. we can go back in history stimson. made that point in 945, you know, the hard liners in the roosevelt administration. russia might have a much better understand. he was national security interests than we do and we

should listen to them. and when the secretary of war simpson, i mean it's so we've been, we were able to run roughshod over russia after $990.00 up through recently, i've done a bunch of interviews about the cuban missile crisis comparisons. and one big difference is that in 1962, the u. s. had a tend to one to 20 to one advantage in the number of nuclear weapons, the number of bombers that could hit the other side. and the number of missiles, i see the ems that's going away, russia is now in a position of relative strength. certainly in something in their near abroad, they would have no trouble defeating the u. s. and nato and economically, they're in a much stronger position now. so potent is acting out of the relative strength right now. and so he's making more aggressive assertions and demanding a certain kind of respect and treatment. and i think the world is going to listen and maybe come from this. something good can possibly come on the opposite,

sir. i just have no faith in the jake sullivans because he's a low octane banker and i personally think he's a liar and victoria new and well, she has a record of her own here. i mean, i worry about the people on the don bass because all of this weaponry is come in. there's been a lot of training in the u. s. and the u. k. is made it very clear that they're not going to send troops here. so just create one big headache for the entire population of the don bass and defacto, a headache for russia. that is that low cost to the u. k. and the u. s. in nature, nato, in general. and i think that's exactly what they're going to do. go ahead, sir. well, it is. let me just say it's low cost for the wars and for corporate power. you know what it is costing the people of the us. i'm talking about working people. the military expenditures are draining every every social program in the united states the day. they're huge source of profit. yes. and frank gas would be even more

profitable, but the military expenditures very profitable at the same time, life expectancy in the u. s. is like 31st globally it's, it's one of the lowest in the developing world and 38th and in education, basic education. we could look at figures on infant mortality and maternity care housing infrastructure. they really reflect. it's kind of off topic, but i mean not having a reasonable health care system of the us suffered disproportionately from coven. we are reaching a 1000000 death. yeah, well, i mean, higher world, still. they are, i, we always, there's no money, there's no money. but for the military, there's always always money. and by the way, victoria no one, let's just go back to her because she rang that they had spent about $5000000000.00 . and she didn't mean in a year, over a whole period of time. there was an investment you could say,

in setting up thousands, thousands of n g o's who were involved not only in rewriting the constitution, but in, for mentoring, all sorts of organizations, with staff, with training in every different social area. what happened in the ukraine was an effort all out on, on a religious basis, social cultural basis to pull toward the west wrap. and the people run this and the lugens have really i'm glad that brought this up because it all culminated in the deadly events of the my dawn in february 2014. so thank you all for joining me here. that's all the time we have want to thank my guest, bethesda jordan city and in tulsa. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember crosstalk rules ah

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