ah, we can do better, we should do better. every one is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great, the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. ah, i ah, i'm after attention you're watching going underground. while the world is arguably

fixated on, the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that a say fall his lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader. mcgaffey address libby and state tv wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these woods were to be prophetic. as africans, riches per capita, country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule, occupation, and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country in his britons. ro key. joining me now for a special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is rupert, we lock the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert, for coming on, anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011, the invasion your bookstore in 631 b. c. was that wow. libya has a much deeper history than european involvement. so our question, oh,

the osman rule, and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to high. yeah, i mean, i sort of go to us, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from a tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the invasion that you of course, were commander there in libya. what's your view of the seeming chaos in as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under good effie. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. usually, as you say, a legal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported finance or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is

a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite, and they're welcoming. but unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hope to take that take place. i, when i was that in 20112012, we're going to have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped and t imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libya relationship when the newly created israel for the bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel,

so important in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair was always a very large community and dating back to bremond times. and before that, bucks off to a community with a church could yes, yes, that's correct. but after the, the war was, the shape of libya began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government and the british to that. as a result of defeating the germans and the italians were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had

a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course, that had been experiments with the republic in the festival. and also the sovereignty emmert, and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clag. so the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community they are. i mean, you say that there was actually a team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911,

but they were there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible i'm not for for jewish people and it is correct. you give it a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rule. gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what i think britian, after the war way was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and the our communities are not. that is not an easy job. but there was certainly contracts where, where it really got difficult was where, where the contract bombs in the 960 and in particular the tank contract, which question was i had with the israel government and also with the libyan

government. i'm not ready wrote to i had some of the tension of the arab is writing more than 1967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. well, we have to remember, we were in the time co and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries why they were arming each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with. certainly the americans backed off and not sense and the, and the neighboring country, egypt. both the soviet union,

the russians and on the americans were trying to put a friend, nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies as you would imagine. and you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapons carrying vulcan moments to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by suffering. and once the nuclear submarine program was and chase, the bulk of our program diminished very quickly and say, really didn't play too big a box in the late sixty's. so everyone forgets the support from the libyan people for britain. but you want the world to remember,

why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resources? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that a good effie was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face. today, with a very difficult desert and it was a very old country with very little gang for it. it sounds of industry or, or i think it makes. so in the 1950 britain who is economic the popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model that mission favors and, and i said he favored it in those days, is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or

a great elizabeth. the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief with me. i mean, the historians of the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found well and a dominant way. i forgot to mention train yet. i'm with the r r lee,

but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the name of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the clue, a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary council to power it? i think i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of king hendricks, who had done a good job for for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with mylo tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as,

as a grande it as an it will, i will change, have done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean, king address was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get after you came to power. as we know the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds to get off the revolution free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. that they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that, a coo, i think one of the very big points is that they wasn't to success i to 2

interests. the nomination i saw was was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided. if you like the fact you as can you dress fell? he was too old to continue at work was i going to abdicate at the his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable and, and therefore there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest who did his best in difficult circumstances. what i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european site. but why do you think it is in that region? that good, daffy managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity,

and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nature back dictators in egypt into nicea in algeria, the indicators were all terrible in all those countries. so when you are talking about king edges, his replacement being better, i mean, it's clear that anyone that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life . chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well not that's not the that site. i saw i went into the, the museum of the marches and missouri and saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the godaddy richie. so any progress that he made for his, his corrupt people was as much corrupt as,

as the previous regime, or any ratio that has be back in history of his he has denied by get after his followers in faith. i'll get off. he's full as roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya, an author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war. the desert after this break. ah join me every 1st bit on the alex simon. sure. and i'll be speaking to guess of the world politics sport business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. mm.

ah, welcome back. i'm still here with ruth at we locally foreign come under british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in war and the does it. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. b has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with over oil. so i think 11 house gave back slightly to the 980 s. and the period you said there was some progress. and i think one of the big successful programs that godaddy brought it was the great mandate river, which water from the aquifers and that as it up to the coast. so they would,

they was progress. and, and that was very expensive, but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that and the, the war and chat, which i said to the downing of the 2 flights i've a long flight. there was a need to, to, to try and rein him back and said, the international command, you're convinced it was a get afi operational, the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to that might have been other possible as well, but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s i was in any way incorrect to budget what i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i,

as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported good f e y? good. that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed was just c gadhafi mandela. i think one could say adored mama gadhafi. yes, they had a good relationship. but i have to correct you on the issue of pressure being a colonial power, and it was never i've the only claim to pause with the ottoman rule

and the $900.00 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. and i'm ramos africa co mean i says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial state of the united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the u. n. administration brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt, but the price egypt, amanda, it was too high, fast the money and secondly, and territory they wanted the large oasis of chug,

which is the type as a new c ha that to be gyptian rather that and then i did it and that was too high on products. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economically they were, i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan? i'm in the british bag, which was my and i, the libyan government was drawn from across the country. he was an equal disagree distribution between the sar, any kids in the east, the present in the south and the trip on attack to pull attendance in the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get after participated in councils on the gadhafi governance. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in nature countries,

obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting gadhafi, do you think his greatest mistake gadhafi was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? i. that's a very interesting i. i know that the are those who i went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not, i think by that stage in 2011 after the international community, i've supported completely the united nations. i've made notion of our

responsibility to protect. we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of shanita and rwanda. and i, which is as it, which is why the united nations security council, all a great to the resolution, a 5 residues and 2011, which began with the condemning that it actually, i get off his actions. and i, his statement about what he was going to do to calculations and coffee, 72, obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that they're both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libby and you thing on the ground when you a, with your british soldiers, they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons. otherwise

they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want to go to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors, gainey. it nuclear weapons and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state wouldn't have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundary. i didn't, i didn't say well study this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously, what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena,

area and the grand atrocity us, you know, and about the libyan fighting group, maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a there's a bit of a confusion that comes with it as the next day, the black flag, which appears off to in 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state. i know they did come in later, but they're in group very much associated with elk either and those that sympathize with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well, we were most worried about i did my grand and trap the trip. it took a long time, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in,

i was appointed just before the doctor was captured, killed i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises to the revenue and to the diplomatic leaders who are that? because it's been likened to the whole nature invasion as basically pulling a coke off the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis with thousands of what we see drowned in the mediterranean. but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups in the truth. and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was i as a, as agreed in the united nations security. got. so i have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for that the,

the resolutions which were all the security council voted for when to 3 the stages. and you, one has to remember that the beginning, it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the, i'm back until 9 am. i'll put the said this was, it. regime has failed miserably. gadhafi must late meet on the 2nd presentation was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent the arab has officially requested the united nations security council to impose a no fly zone against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community completely. and

all members of the security council do not often one can say that about recent big i'm city, big boy. but on the other, on the other is desperately sad that there wasn't a united front r m, syria where you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly, you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe. on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can you understand that of course, when it comes to islamist terrorism, a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empowered islamists who trained them to go to afghanistan. whether it be iraq, whether it be at libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al kinder in that area that alone isis, that the entire british project has bizarrely beamed to

empower these is the miss groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all the whole? it is good about achievement? good. now david says i've so i think it is now make threat if you call that a threat. i the, at the feelings of the islamic extremist, i extend way back i do in my chapter on the italo ottoman ball tell the story of an albanian arrived. it was very much a promotion. it's not me, cause say this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very in the psyche of a chair. strategic have center road wheeler. good not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya. thank you

. so what you're going, thank you. that's it for the show will be back on wednesday, 55 years of the day. now i'm thomas, he's on the vietnam war essay. the responsibility of intellectuals was published in which he stated it is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies until then human touch, viral about social media. let us know whether you think libya will ever reclaim the title of africa's riches per capita. country when i would show anything wrong when i just don't want you to see out these days because the advocate an engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look so common ground.

ah, goodness, conclusions. russia, which has survived so many wars, is the last country in europe that would want to even say the world war. russia says it's western powers who are stoking tensions over ukraine after yet another predicted invasion date reported by the mainstream media passes. the ca confirmed that heavy artillery is being used in the new crime, despite to cease by commitments with 2 civilian reported, killed by a shell. and after a weekend of intense escalation in the conflict, correspondence that people are fearful that is good for their futures. many of them went through and brave the last war. the last thing they wanted to put their children through it again. and in other news, canadian authorities threatened to go out for anyone can.