and they say father's lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader, mamma gadhafi, address libby, and stay tv warning. the demonstrations could lead to civil war. in libya, it appears that these words were to be prophetic as africa's riches per capita. country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libya's history from foreign rule occupation and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and his britons ro key. joining me now for a special edition of this show from here in london to discuss, this is rupert, we locked the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libby, a british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert, for coming on any one would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011 or invasion, or your bookstore, and 631 b. c was that well, libya has a much deeper history than european involvement. so our question, oh, the os my rule, and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british

involvement, which starts a little bit closer to high. yeah, i mean, i sort of go to us, what do you think of it now? when? obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion that you of course, were commander there in libya. what's your view of the seeming chaos in as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under good effie. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. usually, as you say, a legal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported violence or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got the most wonderful history archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite,

and they're welcoming. but unfortunately, this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take place. i, when i was that in 2011, a 2012, we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped and t imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libya relationship when the newly created israel for the bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel, so important in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed

up. again, obviously under tony blair was always a very large navy and community and dating back to brian times. and before that, bucks off the g community with a yes. yes, that's correct. but after the, the war was, the shape of libya began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government and the british to that. as a result of defeating the germans and the italians, i were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course, that had been experiments with the republic in the festival. and also the

sovereignty could emmert, and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with jewish community as the state of israel was to clack. so the tension increased. and i'm, and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community. and they are, i mean, you say the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya, to decide on whether to put it love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, that was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but then there was a small group of people who are looking at

a possible i'm not for an oil change people and that is correct. you give us a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rule. gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what i think britain, after the war way was to settings and as it is now trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and they are communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job. but there was certainly contracts where, where it really got difficult was where, where them a contract mom's in the 96. and in particular the tank contract, which gratian was i hired with israel government and also with the libyan government. i'm not ready brought to i had some of the tension of the arab is

writing more 967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. well, we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy, countries where they were army each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with libya. certainly the americans backed off and not sense and the, and the neighboring country, egypt by the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to put a friend,

nasa who was very influential in terms of staring out the arab nations which attracted many of the young ladies, as, as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers. but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only until the stage when, when they were replaced by you. and once the nuclear submarine program has and chase the buncombe, i grab diminished very quickly and say really, it didn't play to back up in the late sixty's. so if one forgets the support from the libyan people for britain, but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resource?

the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that the gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. libya was named as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face today with a very difficult desert. and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in the ninety's, britain who is economic the popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model that i've written favors, and i'm, i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or ashatash on queen elizabeth the 2nd,

even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief, was me, i mean, that the historians of the time say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king interest at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new file well, in a dominant way it, i forgot to mention train yet and with the r r lee. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all lame of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean,

the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the crew? a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary council to power it? i think i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of king hendricks, who had done a good job for for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with mine, october 960 say he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d, as in m. yeah. well, i will change, done a good job. i mean,

you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, living people, i mean king address was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get after you came to power. as we know the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds to get off the revolution free medical get free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. that they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that, a coo, i think one of the very big points is that they wasn't to success at 22 interests. the nomination at ha was,

was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided. if you like the fact you as can you dress fell, he was too old to continue at work was going to abdicate at the, his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable. and, and therefore there was the vacuum. and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side change. but why do you think it is in that region that get daffy managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back the pages in egypt in tunisia or in algeria,

the indicators were all terrible. it all those countries. so when you are talking about king edges, his replacement being better. i mean, it's clear that anyone, that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to get daffy all be it before the arab spring. well, not that's not a, that's why i saw i went into the the museum of the marshes and ms. ross and saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good, happy richie. so any progress that he made for his, his corrupt people, ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history,

obviously as denied by the daffy's follow, isn't safe. i'll get f, he's full as roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in warren, the desert after this break to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. creed, even foundation, let it be in arms, race is on offense. very dramatic development. only nationally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical of time. time to sit down and talk with welcome back. i'm familiar with rupert. we locally formed commander british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be

a british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in human rights abuser with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 husky back slightly to the 19 eighties and the period. you said there was some progress and i think one of the big, successful paragraphs that godaddy brought it was the great man bait river which oh, water from the aquifers. and that as it up to the next day was progress. and, and that was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that and the,

the war and chat which i sent to the dawning of the 2 flights i've a long flight there was a need to, to, to try and rein him back and said, the international command, your convenience. it was a good apparation, them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record, i have no reason to. there might have been other possible as well, but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s, was in any way incorrect to or, i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not

proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed was to see good daffy mandela. i think one could say adored mama gadhafi. yes, they had a good relationship. but i have to correct you on the issue of pressure being a colonial power. and it was never, i've any colonial power with the ottoman rule and the 1900 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when

britain defeated the italian army. i'm ramos africa. you mean, i says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial state of united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the u. n. administration brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt. but the price, egypt demanded was too high. fast the money and secondly, and territory. they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type as a new c hot to be junction rather that and then it.

and that was to hire products. and therefore the libyans asked to help because economically they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i mean the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal dispute distribution between the sar. any kids in the east, the present in the south and the trip on attack to put attendance in the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get after participated in councils on the gadhafi governance. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m. d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in the nato countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting gadhafi, do you think his greatest mistake gadhafi was removing his weapons of mass

destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? i. that's a very interesting gosh i, i know that the are those who i went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not, i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations. my notion of our responsibility to protect. we were in a different year, we were no longer in the era of shanita and rwanda and i, which is as it, which is why the united nations security council. all

a great to the resolution, a 5 residues and 2011, which began with the condemning that it actually i get off his actions. and i, his statement about what he was going to do to calculations and coffee. 72, obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that they're both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libby and you thing on the ground when you a, with your british soldiers, they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons. otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want to go to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's

a great mari international circles about a non state actors gaining it nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state wouldn't have an inch nash response if it conducted genocide within its boundary. i didn't, i didn't say, well study this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, ariana grand atrocity. us, you know, about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's,

there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that comes with it as the next day. the black flag, which appears off to in 2012 and then go see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state. i know they did come in later and grow very much associated with elk either and those that sympathize with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well, we were most worried about our own kind in my grand and trap the trip. eat with multiple mom, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before the doctor was captured, killed i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, they were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises

to the revenue and to the diplomatic leaders who are that? because it's, we likened the whole new invasion as basically putting a coke off the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis with thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth. and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was i as a, as agreed in the united nation security got so i have the resolution c, l 5. you know, lastly, voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council. thank you for when to 3 the stages and you one has to remember that the beginning it was the arab

league, cold on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the, i'm back until my m. i'll put the said this was, it regime has failed miserably, and gadhafi must late meet on the 2nd presentation was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent. yeah. has officially requested your nice nation security council to impose a no slide against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community completely. and all members of the security council do not often one can say that about recent big i'm city, big boy. but on the other, on the, on it is desperately sad that there wasn't

a united front or in syria where you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria. more explicitly, you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empowered islamists who trained them to go to afghanistan, whether it be iraq, whether it be at libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al kinder in that area that alone isis, that the entire british project has bizarrely beamed to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that whole. it is good about human kind. now a dataset i saw,

i think it is now make stretch. if you call that a threat, i the, at the feelings of the islamic extremist, i extend way back and i do in my chapter on the italo ottoman ball. tell the story of i'm albanian arrived. it was very much about it's nomic cause so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very deep in the psyche of i, they are at your strategic center road. we are good not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you so much for going on. thank you. lots of the show will be back on wednesday, 55 years of the day. no, i'm chomsky that the vietnam war essay, the responsibility of intellectuals was published in which he stated it is the

responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies until then he would touch my role. i social media, let us know whether you think libya will ever reclaim the title of africa's riches per capita. country ah, join me every 1st day on the alex salmon. sure. and i'll be speaking to guess from the world politics, sport, business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. mm. it's been 30 years as the soviet union collapsed, long misconduct. go to chill them on to what the problem yet nuclear you talk so, so shown where you swore trust one, want all of them. ukraine was one of the independent states that emerged from the ruins of a super bowl. i'm doing awesome. what would you also get on google greens? come a little more surely confusing. some of the i can last new lease in west indiana

better one more law a for apple watch at the past 3 decades. green light for ukraine. eye witnesses recall the events. this will be more or less due to shoot me a little here. what i knew to know if that order. sure, i'm not sure, but i did that for 2 months with marvin windows and what other forces were at play, the producer whom you show in shin mushy. in those in you are in the clear water a little bit. when is it the shows us the most low version? jordan. nice. take a look at ukraine. 30 years out the gaining independence. if you're going to read your phone with us for dinner, unless you me, and yet, i guarantee retorted live, but a will, it could be issue ok. lush will still holding so far

in everything in the distance is now controlled by the ukrainian military and self proclaimed republics. rebels now fear that any day now i defensive could come from there, yelling intensifies and eastern new crane as i was, the monitors confirm. heavy artillery being used in violation of sci fi commitments, resulting in casualties. tens of thousands of fled the violence in recent days by crossing the border into name in russia to the mass evacuation. well, in the white we have from dumbass residents. we've taken refuge at a russian shelter. we set off and ran from the world that's been there for 8 years . there is no strand from nerves left anymore to engineer. it started with russia which has survived so.