i sat to high. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from a tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches began to country under gadhafi? i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence was that exported violence or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning, b chairs, it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are a warm, polite, and they're welcoming. but unfortunately, this,

this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take place. i, when i was that in 2011, 2012, we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped and t imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from the belford declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel, so born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, while there was always a very large unity and that that takes you back to bremond time. so i'm before

that bucks off the g community with a yes. yes, that's correct. but how often the, the, the wall was the shape of maybe a big, big i'm to be mapped out by the i forces that there was a decision to make about how it would be government and the british to that as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had the difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course that had been experiments with the republic in the 1st. well, i will say the sovereignty can emmert,

and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with jewish community as the state of israel was to clad. so the tension increased. and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community. and they are, i mean, you say that there was actually a team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but that was, that was a small group of people who are looking at a possible i'm not for an oil change people and that is correct. you give us

a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans are listened to egyptian rule. gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what they i think freshen after the war, where was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the, the jewish community and the, our communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job, but there was certainly contracts where we're really go difficult was when, when a contract. so in the 960 and in particular the tank contract, which question was i had with these ready government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready brought to, i had some of the tension of the arab is ready more than 1967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between them and the international

community. i mean, um sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships . well, we have to remember we were in the time co and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and that was a relationship with that proxy. countries where they were army each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with libya. certainly the americans backed off and not sense. and the, and the neighboring country, egypt. both the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to befriend nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations which attracted many of the

young ladies as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was higher. wilson, who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapons carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by suffering. i'm once the nuclear submarine program was and chase the buncombe program diminished very quickly and say really it didn't play to break apart. and the late sixty's acceptance. so everyone forgets the support from the libyan people for britain. but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resources? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that the gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right,

that oil changed everything up until that point. libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face today with a very difficult desert. and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it. it sounds of industry or, or i cannot mix. so in the 1950 britain who is economic the popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model that written favors and, and i said he favored it in those days, is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or are shown green. elizabeth, the 2nd even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief with me. i mean,

the historians of the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found well and a dominant way. i forgot the next train yet and with the arab ira lee. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the name of corruption, a failure of intel it. i mean the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course,

a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the clue, a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary con council to power it? i think i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of king hendricks, who had done a good job for for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with milo tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d. as in am, it will, i will change. have done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean,

king address was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get afi came to power. as we know, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds. get off the revolution free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean, king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people that they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about just going back to the causes of that a coo, i think one of the very big points is that they wasn't to success. i 2 to erase the nomination, i saw was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided. if you like the fact you, as you dress fell,

he was too old to continue at work was i going to object add the, his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable. and, and therefore, there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side change. but why do you think it is in that region? that good, daffy managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nature back dictators. in egypt, in tunisia, in algeria, the indicators were all terrible. it all those countries. so when you are talking

about king edgers, his replacement being better, i mean, it's clear that anyone, that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well, not that's not the that's i. i saw i went into the, the, the museum of the martyrs and miss rasa. and saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good api richie. so any progress that he made for his, his corrupt people, ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history of his he has denied by get after his followers in favor gadhafi scholars, robi, is going to become the next president,

reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces libya and author of liberating libya. british diplomacy were in the desert after this break. ah harold was driven by dreams shaped banks and cursed under those

with dares sinks. we dare to ask ah ah

with welcome back. i'm still here with ruth that we locally formed come under british forces in the beer in author liberating the british diplomacy in warren. the does it. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of maybe or off. do you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before? what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. b has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with over oil. so i think 11 has to go back slightly to the 980 s and the period. you said there was some

progress and i think one of the big successful programs that kathy brought it was the great mandate river which will also from the act fast and that as it up to the coast, there was, i was progress. and, and that was very expensive, but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 fights, a lock, a big fight. there was a need to to try and rein him back. and so the international committee, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operational lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to they might have been other pos both as well, but i have no reason to believe that the,

the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s. i was in any way incorrect to budget what i mean. you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported good f e y? good. that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed was to see good daffy mandela. i

think one could say adored mama gadhafi. i, yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of a person being a colonial power. and it was never any claim new policy with the ottoman rule and the $900.00 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. i'm ramos africa. you mean i says in the sense that we have us bases in britain. britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states that what do you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to

begin by having a partnership with egypt, but the price, egypt mandate was too high, fast in money. and secondly, in territory. they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type as a new c ha that to be gyptian rather that. and then did it, and that was to higher price. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economic pay what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan? i'm in the british bag. i can't choice that and i, the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal disagree distribution between the sar, any kids in the east, the prison in the south and the cabal attack to pertaining to the west. but these were the leads within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who,

according to get afi, participated in counselors on the gadhafi governance. i'm also going to ask you if you e, it's a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d. and the very important issue of that which was to the 4 in the nato countries. obviously in london, when attorney blair was visiting gadhafi, do you think his greatest mistake gadhafi was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? i. that's a very interesting question. i. i know that the i those who i went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was for very supplies. how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference?

i think not, i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community hives are supported completely the united nations . i've made notion of our responsibility to protect. we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of revenue. and rwanda, and which is as, which is why the united nations security council. all a great to the resolution, a 5 residues and 2011. which began with the condemning that that, that, it actually, i get off his actions. and i, his statement about what he was going to do to population and coffee. 70 though, is he more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that they're both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya,

you thing on the ground when you a, with your british soldiers, they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons. otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i one must go to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors gaining it nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state wouldn't have an international response if

it conducted genocide within its boundary. i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them well, sunny. this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, ariana grand atrocity. us, you know, and about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers. maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that comes with it as the mistake, the black flag, which appears off to in 2012, and then go see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they're in group very much associated with elk either and those that sympathize with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well,

we were mouse worried about unkind in my grand and trap the trip to eat with mock turbo motor. but did you fight with any of those people, the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before gadhafi was captured, to killed as i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that, where advises to they were the revenues the fall. and to the diplomatic leaders who are that? because it's been likened the whole nato invasion as basically putting a coke off the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis with thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda,

the myriad other groups. did he true to that when it wasn't an invasion? this was as a, as agreed in the united nations security got so i have have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council. 34 went through the stages. and you want us to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the i'm back until mom em output. the said this regime regime has failed miserably. gadhafi must late meet on the 2nd resolution was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent the arab league has officially requested the united nations security council

to impose a no fly against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community completely and all members of the security council did not often one can say that about recent big city, big wood, but on the other, on the, on it, that's pretty sad that there wasn't a united front and syria. well, you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan valuable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention and syria. but can you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empowered islamist to train them to go to afghanistan, whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria,

because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al kinder in that area that alone isis, that the entire british project has bizarrely beamed to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that whole. it is good about human kind. now a dataset i've, so i think it is now make a threat if you call that a threat. i the, the feelings of the islamic extremist, i extend way back i do in my chapter on the italo ottoman ball. tell the story of i'm albanian arrived. it was very much about the it's nomic cause say this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very deep in the psyche of

a i chair strategic have sedar raymond wheeler, good not many books by commanding british officers in the projects like libya that thank you so as you're going on. thank you. that's it for the show will be back on wednesday, 55 years today. no, i'm chomsky that the vietnam war essay, the responsibility of intellectuals was published in which he stated it is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies until then he would touch fire my social media. let us know whether you think libya will ever reclaim the title of africa's riches per capita. country. join me every thursday on the alex salmon shore and i'll be speaking together in the world of politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm.

oh, more than 20 years of since one of the world's deadliest terrorist attacks that took thousands of lives, people started to scream. there was a wave that came on for us. that was like opening up an oven door, but not all wounds of heel. the survivors respond does have increased rates of cancer and other health issues due to the dust and chemicals they inhaled. coming in to get my blood cleaned out. of the metals, a lot of blood in my blood. in terms of 1st responder was well over a 100001st responders and there was some estimates that 10 to 20 percent still have to yes. so you have the chief with my wife a minute i have with friends. i thought i was humbled before this really home was

you appreciate life in everything. and the distance is now controlled by the ukrainian military and self proclaimed republics. and the rebels now free of the 30 day. now i defensive could come from their shelling, intensify. denise ukraine is the monitors to confirm that heavy artillery is being used in violation of sci fi commitments, resulting in casualties for tens of thousands have fed to violence and recent days by crossing the whole, the internet, avery russia, with the mass evacuation well on the way we hear from don bath residency style is made to june. we set off and ran from the war that's been there for 8 years. there's no strand from there's last anymore to in here with russia which has remarked so

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