oh, there's no, i'm sure business. i'll see you then. ah ah, [000:00:00;00] ah . i'm after it aunt janie watching, going underground while the world is arguably fixated on the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that a safe all his lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader mammography. address libby and state tv wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these words were to be prophetic as africa's riches per capita.

country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule, occupation, and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country in his britons. ro key. joining me now for a special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is rupert, we lock the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert, for coming on, anyone would think your senior british commander would have a written the book just about the 2011, the invasion your bookstore to 631 b. c. why is that? well, libya has a much deeper history than european involvement. so our question, oh, the osman rule, and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to high. yeah, i mean, i sort of go to ask you,

what do you think of it now when obviously it disappeared from a tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion that you of course, weren't commander there in libya. what's your view of the seeming chaos in as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under good effie. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. usually, as you say, an equal migration or some form of violence was that's exported finance. or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beach is it's got the most wonderful history, archaeological sites, the people warm, polite, and they're welcoming. but unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to

establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take place by when i was that in 20112012 we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britton helped and t imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libya relationship when the newly created israel for the bell, for declaration was started, the 6 day war was israel so important in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair was always a very large navy and community and dating back to brian times,

and i before that bucks off to a community with a jewish believe it. yes. yes, that's correct. but after the, the, the war was, the shape of libya began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians. i were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in the 1st world war and also the sovereignty emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship

with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clag. so the tension increased and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community. and there are, i mean, you say that there was actually a team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, that was a long time before that was even before the italians evaded 1911. but there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible i'm not for for church people, and that is correct. you give it a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rural gus the

british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what they, i think prison after the war where it was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and there are communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job. but there was certainly contracts where, where it really got difficult was when, when a contract psalms in the $960.00 is an in particular the tank contract, which christian was hired with israel government and also with the libyan government. i'm not really brought to i had some of the tension on the arb is writing more 967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean,

the home sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. what we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the blog between the super boss. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries where they were arming each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with libya. certainly, americans backed off and not sense and the, and the neighboring country, egypt by the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to put a friend, nasa who was very influential in terms of stirring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies, as, as you would imagine,

and you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers. but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapons carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only until the stage when, when they were replaced by yourself. and once the nuclear submarine program was at chase, the buncombe program diminished very quickly. and say really it didn't play to break apart and the late sixty's. so everyone forgets the support from the libyan people for britain. but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resources? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right,

that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert. and it was a very old country with very little gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in 1950 britain to as economy popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model, the written favors, and i said the favorite it in those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or are shown green. elizabeth, the 2nd even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie king address was a corrupt beyond belief. was me, i mean, the, the historians of the time say, the amount of money amongst his cronies,

angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king interest at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to brooding at dynamic, energetic countries, which wanted to become use. it's new found well and a dominant way it, i forgot to mention train yet and with the r r lee. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all lame of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from

the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the cou, a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary council to power it? i think, i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with mine, october $960.00. i say he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d, as in m. yeah. well, i will change, done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean,

king interests was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get off, he came to power. as we know, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. i think they were, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet as good talking about just going back to the causes of a cou. i think one of the very big points is that they wasn't a success at 22 teenagers. the nomination was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided if you like. the fact you as you dress fell,

he was too old to continue. and was i going to advocate at the put his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable. and therefore there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete find it of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to pay back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh, tasted, boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side came to the truck. but why do you think it is in that region that get daffy managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back, the pages in egypt in tune is here. in algeria, the indicators were all terrible. it all those countries. so when you're talking

about king edges, his replacement being better. i mean, it's clear that anyone, that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to good daffy all be before the arab spring. well, not that's not the, that's why i saw i went into the the, the museum of the marches and miss ross and saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good out the richie. so any progress that he made for his, his corrupt people was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history. obviously as denied by daffy's follow, isn't safe. i'll get off his fall as roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya and author of liberating libya,

british diplomacy more in the desert after this break. ah ah, and i dream shaped bank printers and those with theirs sinks, we dare to ask for what we are witnessing is nothing less than dangerous war, hysteria. western countries, particularly the u. s. in

u. k. make predictions about alleged to russian invasion of the grain. meanwhile, the security situation within ukraine is deteriorating. will biden, and johnson get their wor? welcome back. i'm still here with ruth that we locally formed, commander british forces in libya, an author liberating the british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces. all you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in human rights abuser with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 house go back slight to the 1980 and the period you said there was some progress and i think one of the

big successful programs that are to go to it was the great mandate river which will also from the aquifers and that has it up to the coast. so there was a, was progress and, and that was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 flights a flight there was a need to, to, to try and rein him back. and so the international committee, you're convinced it was a good f, a opperation them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record, i have no reason to they might have been all the possible as well. but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the $990.00 s i was in any

way incorrect. but what i mean, you know, that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported good f. why good? that he supported the revolutionary movement as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed was just see good daffy mandela. i think one could say adored mama gadhafi at yes, they had

a good relationship. but i have to correct you on the issue of pressure being a colonial power. and it was never like i've been any colonial pause with the ottoman rule and the 1900 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. i'm ramos africa. you mean? i says in the sense that we have u. s. basses in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states. is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought to libya, independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by

having a partnership with egypt. but the price, egypt demanded was too high. fast in money. and secondly, in territory. they want to see a large oasis town chug, which is the type as a new c hot to be junction rather that than a then it and that was to higher price. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economic pay. what i mean that i see, and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal dispute distribution between the sar. any kids in the east, the present in the south and the trip on a time to put a tangent to the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who,

according to get after participated in counsels the gadhafi governance. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m. d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in the nato countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visited, gadhafi, do you think his greatest mistake gadhafi was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? i. that's a very interesting question. i. i know that the i those who i went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was for very supplies. how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not, i think by that stage in 2011,

after the international community hives are supported completely the united nations, most notion of our responsibility to protect. we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of show vanessa and rwanda. and i, which is as a, which is why the united nations security council all are great to the resolution, the 5 resolutions and 2011, which began with the condemning that vivian action. i get off his actions. and i his statement about what he was going to do to compilation bankruptcy. so really though, is he more controversial arguably as seen by some power? ah, which is interrupted our programming here on our tea international because serv plan me peyton has been speaking to the russian security council. this is what he said for

a teeniest lillian part of the population of his country primula. they didn't, they were accept nepal. new storm lou, this could it ties to hobbs line to remind me that it was anti constitutional ant logistics of blood was spilled because during this her van, so lot of innocent people were killed. you to know what was wrong, the pitiless because that was 2nd. so technically you to e armies put it, could you tie and no one is denying that good. so part of the citizens of this country, they didn't accept the this qu at the car solis a q. oh, dig a took a brave concerned people who lived in crimea and o l. e, but a jeweler. oh, so those people them by who are leading and see only of lean the danverse here, right? these people, toaster and you for the middle would. genius, asian lady said that they are going to who and that was stablish to independent republics. don't ask people's republic. lugens people to republic my means the michel is but it will stay in accused. starting from that moment the confrontation

between authorities and keeping people who leap and this parent has begun. and i would like to troll your attention to the fact that russia has done all we could to us. you will be useful tools to use peaceful means to resolve all the differences you skew listed. but despite this efforts, but he authorities wisely, i made a fancy, launched, offensive resume against people and these territories. and it seems that we are witnessing the escalation of the simulation situation for the 3rd time. all this years i would like to remind you because you are the people who leave for teachers . they're basically, he was wondering if they were held all the time they were, it was it, it blocked relation. as you all know, you get relation to a, people can move it new really close to the front. like well,

they had to leave and 3rd basements, so they leave there. now we are children, basement of their houses. when you pick it up, during the negotiations, mutiny blunt leader when we came up with the land to me just to resolve the situation and call the misc accords. because the negotiations were held in means this was packet issues with you because were, but further advance showed you give me 2 days. the authorities from keith have no intentions to will implement with this plan. more than that, the, they have stated business on number of occasions tolerated at the highest you state level when you and me to me at the level of the foreign minister at the level of the security council and secretary. so it is obvious for everyone in your room

that sure, in the context, in the framework of this means course, you're not going to do anything. nevertheless, russia does it still making attempt to get those issues to resolve just for me and all this, if i each complications that we just all this tragic event where peaceful mans will weigh, we should, but we have what we have to show you our machine at the top of the park, today's meeting is to hear everyone out and to come up with are further established next stablish base track. when you to lose what i mean, then you can, that is the request from the how to solve the don't ask people to republican lugens was people's republic exhibit to recognize their sovereignty for independence

and the storage of the request made by the state him of the russian ration about this. so they made a request for the head of state to do these, to recognize the independence and sovereignty of the don people's republic and all the lou gaps republic him admitted at the same time, i would like to be soon. we can see that all these matters, mark on you closely related fees are different matters, but see on your closely related to william the global problems persist. all of security in the world and in europe in particular, is poised because we're still using ukraine as a tell us confrontation from our side here to watch switching, bi gruesome eighty's at the bus. that's exactly why in recent months and at the end of the last here it's mostly miss. normally my partner members and we escalate it. our work with our counterparts in washington in ne,

to to come to an agreement to validate security matchers and to between them. but pollution got to do everything we can to continue develop the country on the piece for the consensus for us. it's a priority come to our account for it's a priority, not a confrontation by inventing security and providing necessary conditions to continue to grow. we need to understand current realities, and as i have said on a number of occasions, if russia is going to major these threat over like ukrainians, joining the north atlantic treaty organization, nato, been a threatened to our country but will increase the tenfold because the various article 5 of the crate, your organization is going to re, yes, they're still here and it says, all the light countries that they have to join the military actions on behalf of one of its members. if there is aggression its members,

and no one wants to recognize that there are 3 of them in crimea, ukraine, and that it's their territory with a real threat that they will want to fight for these territory that the claim belongs to them. with military means. and that it is stated in their documentary, in their papers, he spent the entire north atlantic treaty organization. this military blog will have to join this with 2 actions. and we are told, and you know that, that some countries, some nato members are against you, of ukraine becoming a member of the alliance. nevertheless, despite being against this is a 2008 correct. they signed a memorandum opened doors for ukraine in georgia to join nato. when i asked why did you do that and i got no response. so we were pressured into these by the united states. that's why the response, well,

they didn't leave staff being pressured by the united states. what guarantees do we have that a want make next steps in these directions? we have no sign you up here right here. so there could be no, it's got the united states can renounce any agreements previously reached. they can withdraw from any documents. they sign. no communion, you have a daughter, but never the last. at least something should be right english should become unless you wish to do when you moved them to go. it's a legally binding, but it's not command, but we can't reach at the terms. forgotten about that. so that's how i suggest we work 1st, i would like to give the floor to mr. law brokers who probably took the good so. so now the trying not to come to an agreement with washington with brussels with natal regarding the security guarantees. and then i would like to ask mr. cause if i ask him to join us today,

he is here. i can see that you would sumption and i would like to go to school,