when customers go buy, you reduce the price, then el, reduce a lower that's under cutting, but what's good for food market that back to the global economy? with me hello, welcome to wealth apart. more than 700 years ago, the great sophia point roommate pound, one of the most enduring commentaries on the state of the world, comparing it to a reeling drunken body and saying that the caravans of civilization has been ambushed with fools in cherish everywhere. he called untrue leaders to stand up and

beat the captains that ships. well, what does it take to navigate the dire straits of life 1st as a world class, athlete them down as a world leader? all to discuss that i am now enjoying by prime minister of pakistan, even upon prime minister create you see you great to talk to thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. now i begin with this somewhat their bows introduction 1st because i know of your interest in supervision. and more importantly, because i think your whole life in politics and before that is a very colorful and i think very authentic illustration of following your heart desires, which was very essential to you. who miss teachings and the teachings of other mystics. you're going to turn 70 you this year. what keeps you powered? well, let me say one thing is when a human is born within had he's trying to look for god. and this is a constant journey towards god. lot of people,

unfortunately, never asked the 2 questions. they never asked themselves, what is the purpose of existence and what happens to be off friday. but whenever they ask these questions, it takes them towards god. the only way you can on have the quest answer to this question, the purpose of existence, what happens to us when we die isn't religion. and all religions answer that western science doesn't. so the 2 ways of existence. one is the spiritual and the other is the material. and for me, if you are on the spiritual aurora, then you will always be looking for how you can face your god after you die, that you have fulfill your responsibility as a human being. and our responsibilities as

a human being is the more god gives us the more responsibility we have to lift to help other human beings. well, let's talk about this practical aspect of our lives and helping other human beings and the state of the world which and then a lot of concerns are around the world about where it's moving and many apocalyptic projections. i wonder how you feel about it and how do you feel about pakistan's ability. she'll adapt for this shifting landscape. well, the world faces to huge challenges. what is climate change? were the material existence when we only live in this world, from material well being. then classic example is how we are in barrel on existence is what climate change is, how we have ravaged the earth and how we have misused the blessings of god. up on the other hand or so. so that is the biggest challenge i think for human

beings. the 2nd biggest challenges, the blunder of the developing world by the ruling elites of the developing world. where every year, huge amounts of money. according to the fact of the sector general of the un, $1.00 trillion dollars move from illegally. there's a trade in balance anywhere. i mean, the money flows through the trade in balance to the developed world anyway. but the elicit the illegal money laundered by the ruling elites, are over $1.00 trillion dollars every year, moves to the offshore accounts and western capitols. not this is going to have severe consequences on foot on hunger, on starvation, on, on, in balance between the rich and the poor. and so i don't think enough attention has

been paid to the 2nd one because the, the richer countries benefit from it. because they have this capital inflow, so they don't care. but the poor countries are getting destroyed and i mentioned roomy and he wrote something to the effect that clever people want to change the world. while wise people focus on themselves. and i wonder in the current predicament in finding the ones that you talked about climate change and the plundering and of the human societies of the, of do for countries. yeah, i, if that is in a way, a consequence of some clever people trying to make the world a better place, the plunder, as simple as the rich people in the ruling elites. what the doors are, when they as prime minister and me as a prime minister, if i want to take money out from pakistan and my ministers, the only way i can do it is by destroying the institutions that will stop me from

doing it. the judiciary, the accountability process, the, the techs department. so when i destroy the institution, the country goes down. and this is why countries upon, but what is happening is the rich countries are now building barriers. they're allowing the capital to come in, but the don't allow the labor to come in. so the only way to stop this, people are dying of hunger and poverty. and this imbalance is for the rich countries to make laws like they have for drug money, like they're for dinner financing. they should not allow, for instance, are ex rulers have living in millions of dollars of properties in london. we can't do anything to get them back because the rich countries, they make it so difficult for get, let us get the money back. this should change because if really you want to stop this immigrant problem, poverty in the developing world, then there has to be

a way that if, for instance, we say that look, this person who was living in august and has this huge properties in london. then then, unless that person can justify that he got this money, legally, the property should be returned to us that put stop the plunder of the developing world. we are recording this interview on the eve of your visit to russia for a highly anticipated meeting between the has of our country's countries whose relationship for a very long time has been conditioned on others. it's been a function of, you know, other processes, regional global processes. do you think russia and pakistan have reached that point when they can deal with one another? as, you know, self sufficient actor is on a bilateral basis rather than, let's say, looking on to others. well, let me just go back in history, or when the cold war was, you know, ravaging the whole of the world. the world was divided into blocks. pakistan

moved into the united states. we became part of the block in the cold war with the us. india actually stood neutral, but it was very close to the soviet. now when i look back, i think it initially august than needed help because of when we became independent, we were above rush, the millions of refugees and pakistan we needed help. but you know, beyond a 10 years or so, we should have then be non aligned, independent country. us stood in own feet not relied on it. we became part of a block because we got foreign aid. when you look back foreign aid as a curse for a country, because you do not fix your own systems, you do not raise your net revenues. you don't increase your export. you rely on hand out and it stops a country evolving and developing and becoming self for reliant. so

the world being divided into cold war blocks and pakistan becoming part of a block. when you look back at it stopped us from developing as a country, but you cannot go back by then you can change things moving forward. so thing and so, so when you, what you, you know, you learn from history, you learn from your mistakes, you have to know how to take the knox the, i guess that's your water in life, right? you cannot move forward in life until you learn from your mistakes. so now what we want to do is not become part of any block. we want to have trading relationship with all countries. we have suffered, india became a hostile country, so the trade between them was minimal. iran had sanction. so we can trade on the west side of honest than has 40 years of conflict. so we can go north and then to central asia. and we can go to central asia because we became part of the u. s.

block. essentially ship was part of the, the soviet block. so what we want now is trade with everyone and, and, and to, and what is the purpose behind it, to raise up people out of poverty. that is the min, any head or state as men of focus should be how do you raise people out of poverty? and if you and the best was drilling with everyone, that prime minister intention to trade is perhaps not an app. because as you know, our countries for quite some time have been discussing a large infrastructure project there. i think it's called the pakistan stream a gas pipeline. but for giving you my power upon this stream hasn't gotten enough steam yet. and now in addition to logistical financing challenges, we are also dealing, i mean, mosque was dealing with that threat of arbitrary sanctions, western sanctions. and that could be imposed on any russia associated project. do

you think this project and others? i will be up and running in our lifetime because i'm sure you are free. and technically speaking, you're free to trade with everyone. but you know how geopolitics works. and there are some subtle ways of imposing pressure on international partners. that's true. i mean, the sir north south bought biplane, one of the reasons a suffolk was the companies that, that people negotiating with turned out that the u. s. a deployed sanctions on them . so, so the problem was to get a company that was in sanction or russian company that was in sanction. so that became broke with iran. we could, we are gust deficient right now. we could just a good a gas pipeline from iraq, but it on a sanction. so we, i mean, this is a, i have to say that the developing world really wishes that there is not another

gold war. because you know, how do we go ahead our purposes, not that we become part of a blog on my bid purposes. we have on half or pollution which is above the off the bottom, 50 percent off is above the line and half is below. but if the, if there's a like this commodity super cycle when commodity prices have gone up, or if there's a short like the covered 90 and then they start going below the poverty line. so the last thing we want is the world devoted to blog sanctions. and i'm hoping that this, you, ukraine crisis is resolved peacefully. if we vent reports in the western media, there is an imminent war between russia and ukraine in on the carts. and clearly, western countries take a very oppositional,

i would even say. and the michel due to russia for a shrewd the latisha like yourself, don't you think that it's perhaps too precarious over time to expand pakistan's and geopolitical horizons? the world firstly, this doesn't concern us. i mean, you know, we have a bilateral relationship with russia. and we are, we really want to strengthen it up, you know, as i said, regions develop, it's not countries don't develop in isolation. it's because of the whole region goes up. like we saw the european union. i mean, i was in university in england. ready when the european union a came into being and then the whole area standard of living went up. so we want to sort of really, we hope that, you know, sanctions are lifted on her on so that, you know, we were short of gas here. and you know what, they're honest, the cheapest guess we can get. and some of that we have the in the a one day. i

mean indian leadership, i wish there would concentrate on raising people out of poverty in india. rather than proven to the world that the hindus are the most popular race, i mean the, the leadership. how can a leadership, not worry about having the most, the highest poverty in the world isn't the indian subcontinent. how could the not worry about it rather than trying to prove to world of the hindus are superior to prime minister and the other hand, as many nations go through such period. i mean, it could be a more or less painful i, historically, but you know, the spell of nationalism has affected many countries historically. now you mentioned that you don't want to play camp politics anymore and you want to be a bridge. and, and this is a very admirable goal, was also fair, beautiful matter for, i think turkey or even the ukraine are frame their foreign policy in such terms,

say, a few years back. but they were disappointed. what makes you believe that pakistan can actually pull it off being this bridge, let's say, in eurasia, when so many other countries attempted and failed, was 1st let me say one thing. as a student of history, i do not believe that military conflict solve problems. if you look back, i mean, look at the conflict since 911. i mean, if a 3rd party, dispassionately did a proper analysis of so many people killed, what was the, what was the g at the end? what, what happened and of honest, on 20 years of god knows hundreds of 1000 of people dying. what, what was the achievement? so therefore, i'm not a believer in military conflicts. i believe the civilized societies has all the difference through dialogues. and the countries that rely on military conflict have

not started. history probably, do you believe on a personnel that say on a political level in some sense of accountability, maybe historical accountability. do think things will change in the world so that all the greatest operations that you have that could be realized without that as getting very cynical because i hear what you're saying on the emotional level, but i have covered so many wars and i have seen so many people killed absolutely for nothing that i simply don't believe that western leaders care about things like human lives or even development in the developing countries. i'm sorry for saying that it's true or most leaders, the demand concern is to stay in power. so if to stand power, you know, there's a, what they call as a good war, never devon, their war mind, loss of you or human lives and damage. it's not, it's not people. exactly. i mean,

you know, as someone who looks upon the word from a spiritual point of view, i think it is insane to have a conflict with the idea of people dying and, and thinking that you will get more popular because of that. for instance, take this ukraine conflict. i mean for the life of mine, i cannot really believe that there were that there is any chance there's any possibility of a contract because the consequences forget about what will happen to the combatants for the developing world. already the price of oil has gone up because of the prospect of conflict. you can supplies week to the world. and for that matter, russia. now imagine what will happen already with the world is suffering from the aftereffects of the gorge 19. imagine if there's a conflict,

what will happen to the poor countries? already the poor countries are suffering. they're already in debt because they had to incurred debt because of the consequences of the govern bank in follow. so i cannot in my linda this, dan, oh well, i mean, how can they even have got this close to a conflict? i gotta understand this prime minister, we will try to figure it out after a short break. but let's take a quick boss for the time being. we'll be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah, mm. mm hm.

ah, join me every posted on the alex silent. sure. but i'll be speaking to guess with the world politics sport business. i'm show business, i'll see you then. mm. ah. welcome back to, well, the part with prime minister of pakistan, amazon prime minister, before the break, we were talking about the ukranian conflict. then obviously we had the russians and our ukranian neighbors are very effective. but you have your own conflict to solve

and it may be a very stupid question on my part. but because we all know that, you know, bad piece is better than a good war. but still, historically g thing, it's better to leave a conflict in limbo for decades on an a. do you think issues should be solved when they are hot? you see if, if humans want, they can solve any conflict. the problem is that the humans that the leaders and i'm talking about the leaders, i'm sure people in ukraine and russia, everyone understands that if there's a conflict, there will be consequences. everyone will be, was all the people people on either side. don't want this conflict to help us exactly, but i think that the leadership in the countries is then stuck. that if we

withdraw from this position, what will be the consequences to us politically? because politically, the consequences always. and i think it takes very baffle great leaders who rise above this and who look up to think about the effects on the human beings. i do want to ask you about the great leadership, but very quickly i know that you have tried to deal with your mutual grievances or with india over kashmir, and i'm sure you're not satisfied with the, with the results of those efforts. and i'm going to leave that issue to your successors, or you're still hoping to try something you judo, when, when my bought to kim to power in 2002. first thing i did was to reach out to india . and i told them, you know, only issues kashmir. let's sit down on the table and resolve. let's have a roadmap, but i didn't realize it. and remember,

i'm the one who knows india better than any one because of course, cricket is a passion, you know, in the subcontinent. and because of, you know, me being captain of cricket hair and sort of playing last over 10 years against india. i knew india better than most people, so i immediately stopped. but then i discovered to my horror, that this is not the india i used to know because it's been taken over by this mag ideology. it's a racist ideology which was, which was inspired by the nazis. the founding fathers were inspired by the nazis. you can google on your phone and you can the founding fathers praise the nazis racial superiority. and you see there's a negative nationalism. there's a positive nationalism. you must distinguish between the 2. i can inspire by people by saying, look, you were a great nation. less, no, get back again. but if i said you were a great nation,

but because of these other human communities, you could not reach the top. so ship the hatred towards them. there is always a bloodshed, prime minister, i'm sure your counterpart than your daily with disagreement. they prime minister mooney wants to share his own use to me would be more than happy to travel a. i would love to debate with them on tv that i would like to talk. but you know, before we organize this debate, and by the way, archie would be happy to moderate that me personally. but it would be so good for a 1000000000 people on the subcontinent. if we can resolve our differences through debate, rather than that would be amazing. but let me ask specifically about pakistan because this year marks the 75th anniversary of your contract coming into being and they figure out mohammed ali jan. i still loans large with his philosophy of marrying modernity with traditional grassroots culture. and i think it's not only

in pakistan, but i see this philosophy coming to prominence all around the world. even in rush, i think i didn't put in, subscribes to similar brand of enlightened conservatism. when you see progressive things around the world, the you benefit from them, but you stay true to your sort of your, in your core, your collective. so why do you thing and it's becoming so popular around the world . why does hendrik? because whenever you try and superimpose another culture on auto nation, it doesn't work. you know, colonialism, what did it do? what the colonialist created was a thin lot of people who imitated the colonialists, who and pakistan would be called the westernized elite. but there was a big gap between them and the rest of the population. so nations evolved organically, the border from all over the world, but they're,

they're rooted in their own culture history. if you cut that off, i mean it has severe consequences all over the world when you cut off a country from its roots, a nation, and try and if another culture then become neither one thing or the other. nor do we said not at the thought of baterri, neither quail or a partridge. what has happened after colonialism is that you have a dining set of elite, which pretends that the, that their western and their gap between them and the rest becomes wider and wider . it's what happened, it or iran. the iranian revolution was that the elite of the shah of iran became cut off from the mass of the population. so there was a huge reaction against it and focused on what we are trying to do is do ado obviously learned from all advanced societies and right now the nation we can learn most from china. because if my men emphasis to raise people out of poverty,

nor human society as a keyboard, china has done so. therefore we learn from every one. but we should be rooted in our own culture. history, religion tend to play a subtle but there, i think, very significant role in facilitating ration, pakistani changes. and i know that recently while visiting beijing, you suggested that his mom about can act as a mediator between teaching and our washington. what makes you believe, i'm sorry, 15 grand, that what makes you believe that mediation is even possible? because as far as i understand the american psyche they are not after understanding, they are not after negotiating on the level playing field. they are after preserving dominance with china. agreed to that. look, the america, i know is very diverse. any country, for instance, what is happening that india is not what indians are like, this is not the india off of narrow and gone the,

this is the india of not in the movie, but daily, highly organized elite has taken over and they're just like the nazis took over germany, so you know, at a given point, there is this extreme nationalism which has been released in the us. and they want us dominance. but surely they are sensible voices and the you are saying that conflict is where you are heading gauntlet. gore war is not the way. there is another way where it could be women when for all of everyone. and i certainly believe that the cooperation between china and the united states, anyone for that, but a russia wouldn't benefit mankind much more than a conflict. i wish i had more time, i have many more questions, but let me ask the final one and, and it's a bit cheesy. but i asked sincerely because you have reached the pinnacle of your supporting career by giving your country. it's 1st and only victory in the cricket

world cup. how do you hope to be remembers? what do you wanna give to your people as, as the prime minister? that's a simple answer. i would love to emulate china in terms of bringing people out of poverty. 2 things i want, one thing is if i can bring people out of poverty, but related to that as rule of law, human societies are defined by 2. great, thanks, rule of law and a welfare society, a society that is you men and just to looks after as it's are people who are not so privileged were poor. and so that's how i want to be looked urban bird. if i can bring rule of law and pakistan and raise up people out of poverty on the lines, what china has them, i would be able to meet my maker with confidence help. prime minister has been great pleasure talking to you. i hope your team receives as much hospitality as we have benefited from here. best of luck, i'm looking back and i'm looking forward to my trip to moscow and can and thank you

for watching hope to see you again. next week i will depart. ah ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk

ah, fireworks chairing on joy and don't bath is vladimir putin recognizes the independence that the don. yes. i look down republic bank also that measures that being taken to ensure peace in the region. it comes with a don't going shelling across on bath where locals are staying close to bomb shelters. we hear from some of them a but i had the shelling through the whole night at the local school with shell. that was scary. my children live in crimea. my daughter often calls me and tells me to come to where she lives with the un security council conveying.