your time as well. joining us here for what has been rolling breaking news coverage on all the international. the past 1216 hours we've seen a lot of developments between russia. it's a european professional partner on who's slap bang in the middle, but that of ukraine. more details to come when we return at the top of oh well, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk

with with me. hello, welcome to worlds apart. more than 700 years ago. the great sophia boy roommate pound one of the most enduring commentaries on the state of the world comparing it to a. busy reeling, drunken body and saying that the caravan of civilization has been ambushed with fools in cherish everywhere he called untrue leaders to stand up and beat the captains that shapes well, what does it take to navigate the dire straits of life? first, as a world class, athlete them down as a world leader all to discuss it. i'm now joined by prime minister of pakistan,

even upon prime minister. it's chris to see you. great to talk to thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. now i begin with this somewhat their bows introduction 1st because i know of your interest in supervision. and more importantly, because i think your whole life in politics before that is a very colorful and i think very authentic illustration of following your heart desires, which was very essential to whom his teachings and the teachings of other mystics. you're going to turn 70 this year. what keeps you powered? well, let me say one thing. when, when a human is born within henny, he's trying to look for god. and this is a constant journey towards god. lot of people, unfortunately, never asked the 2 questions. they never asked themselves, what is the purpose of existence and what happens to be off for i die. but whenever

they ask these questions, it takes them towards god. the only way you can have the question answer to this question. the purpose of existence, what happens to us when we die isn't religion and all religions answer that question. science doesn't. so the 2 ways of existence. one is the spiritual and the other is the material. and for me, if you are on the spiritual aurora, then you will always be looking for how you can face your god after you die, that you have fulfill your responsibility as a human being and our responsibilities as a human being. ready is the more god gives us the more responsibility we have to lift to help other human beings? well, let's talk about this practical aspect of our lives and helping other human beings and the state of the world which and then lot of concerns are around the world

about where it's moving and many apocalyptic projections. i wonder how you feel about it and how do you feel about pakistan's ability. she'll adapt through this shifting landscape. well, the world faces to huge challenges. what is climate change? were the material existence when we only live in this world, from material well being. then classic example is how we and barrel on existence is what climate change is, how we have ravaged the earth and how we have misused the blessings of god. up on the other hand or so. so that is the biggest challenge i think for human beings. the 2nd biggest challenge is the blunder of the developing world by the ruling elites of the developing world. where every year huge amounts of

money. according to the fact of the sector general of the un, $1.00 trillion dollars move from illegally, there's a trade in balance anywhere. i mean, the money flows through the trade in balance to the developed world anyway. but the elicit the illegal money laundered by the ruling elites, are over $1.00 trillion dollars every year, moves to the offshore account. and western capitals. not this is going to have severe consequences on foot, on hunger, on starvation, on, on, in balance between the rich and the bore. and so i don't think enough attention has been paid to the 2nd one because the, the richer countries benefit from it. because they have this capital inflow, so they don't care. but the poor countries are getting destroyed and i mentioned roomy and he wrote something to the effect that clever people want to change the

world. while wise people focus on themselves. and i wonder in the current predicament, including the ones that you talked about climate change and the plundering are one of the human societies of the, of do both countries. yeah. if that is in a way, a consequence of some clever people trying to make the world a better place. the plunder is simple. the rich people in the ruling elites, what the doors are, when they as prime minister and me as a prime minister, if i want to take money out from pakistan and my ministers, the only way i can do it is by destroying the institutions that will stop me from doing it. the judiciary, the accountability process, the, the techs department. so when i destroy the institutions, the country goes down. and this is why countries are poor. but what is happening is the rich countries are now building barriers. they're allowing the capital to come

in, but they don't allow the labor to come in. so the only way to stop the people dying of hunger and poverty. and this imbalance is for the rich countries to make laws like they have for drug money, like they're for debt financing. they should not allow, for instance, are ex rulers have living in millions of dollars of properties in london. we can't do anything to get them back because the rich countries, they make it so difficult for get, let us get the money back. this should change because if really you want to stop this immigrant problem, poverty in the developing world, then there has to be a way that if, for instance, we say that, look, this person who was living in pakistan has this huge properties in london. then. then unless that person can justify that he got this money, legally,

the property should be returned to us. that put stopped the plunder of the developing world. we are recording this interview on the eve of your visit to russia for a highly anticipated meeting between the has of our countries. countries whose relationship for a very long time has been conditioned on others. it has been a function of our, you know, our, their process range and now global processes. do you think russia and pakistan have reach that point when they can deal with one another? as you know, self sufficient actor is on a bilateral basis rather than, let's say, looking on to others. well, let me just go back in history, or when the cold war was leveraging the whole of the world, the war was divided into blocks. like a son moved in to the united states, we became part of the block in the cold war with the u. s. in. they are actually still neutral, but it was very close to the soviets. now when i look back,

i think it initially august than needed help because of when we became independent, we were above rush, the millions of refugees and pakistan we needed help. but you know, beyond a 10 years or so, we should have then be non aligned, independent country. us stood in own feet not relied on it. we became part of a block because we got foreign aid. when you look back foreign aid as a curse for a country, because you do not fix your own systems, you do not raise your never revenues. you don't increase your export. you rely on hand out and it stops a country evolving and developing and becoming self for reliant. so the world being divided into cold war blocks and pakistan becoming part of a block. when you look back at it stopped us from developing as a country,

but you cannot go back by thing. you can change things moving forward. and so, so when you, but you, you know, you learn from history, you learn from your mistakes, you have to know how to take the knox the, i guess that's your water in life, right? you cannot move forward in life until you learn from your mistakes. so now what we want to do is not become part of any block. we want to have trading relationships with all countries. we have suffered, india became a hostile country, so the trade between them was minimal. iran had sanction, so we can trade on the west side of honest than has 40 years of conflict so we can go not and then to central asia. and we can go to central asia because we became part of the u. s. block essentially ship was part of the soviet block. so what we want now is trade with everyone and group, and what is the purpose behind it? to raise up people out of poverty. that is the min,

any head or state his main focus should be how do you raise people out of poverty? and if you and the best was treating with everyone that prime minister intention to trade is perhaps not an app. because as you know, our countries for quite some time have been discussing a large infrastructure project there. i think it's called the pakistan stream a gas pipeline. but for giving you my power upon this stream hasn't gotten enough steam yet. and now in addition to logistical financing challenges, we are also dealing, i mean, mosque was dealing with that threat of arbitrary sanctions, western sanctions. and that could be imposed on any a rush associated project. do you think this project and others? i will be up and running in our lifetime because i'm sure you are free. and technically speaking,

you're free to trade with everyone. but you know how geopolitics works and there are some subtle ways of imposing pressure on international partners. that's true. i mean, the sir, not southpark biplane. one of the reasons a suffered was the companies that, that we were negotiating with turned out that the u. s. a deployed sanctions on them. so, so the problem was to get a company that was in sanction or russian company that was in sanction. so that became broke with iran. we could, we are gust deficient right now. we could just a good a gas pipeline from iraq, but it on a sanction. so we, i mean this is a, i have to say that the developing world really wishes that there is not another gore war. because you know, how do we go ahead our purposes, not that we become part of a blog. on my big purposes. we have almost half our population which is above the

off the bottom, 50 percent off is above the line and half is below. but if the, if there's a like this commodity super cycle, when commodity prices have gone up, or if there's a short like the, the govern, 19, then they start going below the poverty line. so the last thing we want is the world devoted to blog sanctions. and i'm hoping that this, you, ukraine crisis is resolved peacefully. if we vent reports in the western media, there is an imminent war between russia and ukraine in on the carts and clearly, western countries take a very oppositional, i would even say, and michel the you to russia for a shoot latisha like yourself. don't you think that it's perhaps too precarious over time to expand pakistan's into your political horizons?

the world firstly, this doesn't concern us. i mean, you know, we have a bilateral relationship with russia and we are, we really want to strengthen it up. you know, as i said, regions develop, it's not countries don't develop in isolation. it's because of the whole region goes up. like we saw the european union. i mean, i was in university in england. ready when the european union came into being and then the whole area standard of living went up. so we want to sort of really, we hope that, you know, sanctions are lifted on her on so that, you know, we were short of gas here. and you know what, they're honest, the cheapest guess we can get. and some of that we are there in the a one day. i mean, indian leadership, i wish there would concentrate on raising people out of poverty in india. rather than proven to the world that the hindus are the most popular race, i mean the, the leadership. how can a leadership,

not worry about having the most, the highest poverty in the world isn't the indian subcontinent. how could the not worry about it, rather than trying to prove the rule that the hindus are superior to prime minister . on the other hand, as many nations go through such period, i mean it could be a more or less painful i historically, but you know, the spell of nationalism has affected many countries historically. now you mentioned that you dont once you play camp politics anymore and you want to be a bridge and, and this is a very admirable goal, was also fair, beautiful matter for i think turkey or even the ukraine are framed their foreign policy in such terms. there a few years back, but they were disappointed. what makes you believe that pakistan can actually pull it off being this bridge, let's say, in eurasia, when so many other countries attempted and failed was 1st let me say one thing.

as a student of history, i do not believe that military conflict solve problems. if you look back, i mean, look at the conflict since 911. i mean, if a 3rd party, dispassionately did a proper analysis of so many people killed. what was the, what was the g at the end? what, what happened out of honest, on 20 years of god knows, hundreds of 1000 of people dying. what, what was the achievement? so therefore, i'm not a believer in military conflicts. i believe the civilized societies has all the difference through dialogues. and the countries that rely on military conflict have not started. history probably, do you believe on a personnel that say on a political level in some sense of accountability, maybe historical accountability? do think things will change in the world so that all the greatest operations that

you have that could be realized without that as getting very cynical because i hear what you're saying on the emotional level, but i have covered so many wars and i have since so many people killed absolutely for nothing that i simply don't believe that western leaders care about things like human lives or even development in the developing countries. i'm sorry for saying that it's true or most leaders are the main concern is to stay in bower. so if to stand power, you know, there's a, what they call as a good war. never there will. there were minor loss of you or human lives and damage. it's not, it's not people. exactly. i mean, you know, someone who looks upon the word from a spiritual point of view, i think it is insane to have

a conflict with the idea of people dying and, and thinking that you will get more popular because of that. for instance, take this ukraine conflict. i mean for the life of mine, i cannot really believe that there will vic, there is any chance there's any possibility of a conflict because the consequences forget about what will happen to the combatants for the developing world. already the price of oil has gone up because of the prospect of conflict. you can supplies week to the world, and for, for that matter, russia. now imagine what will happen already with the world is suffering from the aftereffects of the cupboard. 19. imagine if there's a conflict, what will happen to the poor countries? already the poor countries are suffering. they're already in debt because they had to incurred because of the consequences of the govern bank in follow. so i cannot

in my linda, this is dan, how will i mean, how can they've got this close to a conflict? i gotta understand this prime minister, we will try to figure it out after a short break. but let's take a quick pause for the time being. we'll be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah, and join me every posted on the alex simon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess with the world politics sport business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm hm. mm

hm. mm. mm. welcome back to worlds of far as with prime minister of pakistan, amazon prime minister before the break, we were talking about the ukranian conflict. then obviously we had the russians and our ukraine and neighbors are very effective, but you have your own conflict to solve. and it may be a very stupid question on my part. but because we all know that, you know, bad piece is better than a good war. but still, historically, do you think it's better to leave a conflict in limbo for decades? ah, on an ingenious thing, issues should be solved when they are hot. you see if,

if humans want, they can solve any contract. the problem is that the humans that the leaders and i'm talking about the leaders, i'm sure, and people in ukraine and russia, everyone understands that if there's a conflict, there will be consequences. every one will be, was all the people people on either side don't want this conflict to help us. exactly. but i think that the leadership in the countries is then stuck. that if we would draw from this position, what will be the consequences to us politically? because politically, the consequences always and i think it takes very powerful, great leaders who rise above this and who look up, oh, think about the effects on the human beings. i do want to ask you about the great leadership, but very quickly, i know that you have tried to deal with your mutual grievances or with india over

kashmir, and i'm sure you're not satisfied with the, with the results of those efforts. and i'm going to leave that issue to your successors, or you still are hoping to try something you judo, when, when my bought to kim to power in 2000 new to 1st thing i did was to reach out to india. and i told them, you know, our only issues kashmir. let's sit down on the table and resolve. let's have a roadmap, but i didn't realize, you know, and remember, i am the one who knows india better than anyone because of course, cricket as a fashion, you know, in the subcontinent. and because of me being captain of cricket, her and sort of playing last over 10 years against india, i know india better than most people. so i immediately reached out. but then i discovered to my horror that this is not the india i used to know. because it's been taken over by this mad ideology. it's a racist ideology, which was,

which was inspired by the nazis. the founding fathers were inspired by the nazis. you can google on your phone and you can, the founding fathers praise the nazis racial superiority. and you see there's a negative nationalism, there's a positive nationalism. you must distinguish between the 2. i can inspire by people by saying, look, you were a great nation. less, no, get back again. but if i said you were a great nation, but because of these other human communities, you could not reach the top. so ship the hatred towards them. there is always bloodshed, prime minister, i'm sure your counterpart than your daily with disagreement. they have prime minister movie, wants to share his own use to me, would be more than happy to travel a i would love to debate with them on tv that i would like to talk. but you know, before we organize this debate, and by the way, archie would be happy to moderate that me personally, but it would be so good for

a 1000000000 people on the subcontinent. if we can resolve our differences through a debate, rather than that would be amazing. but let me ask specifically about pakistan because this year marks the 75th anniversary of your country coming into being and they figure out how much that legion are still looms large with his philosophy of marrying modernity with traditional grassroots culture. and i think it's not only in pakistan, but i see this philosophy coming to prominence all around the world, even in russia, i think i didn't put in, subscribes to similar brand of enlightened conservatism. when you see progressive things around the world, you benefit from them. but you stay true to your sort of your inner core, your collective. so why do you think it is becoming so popular around the world? why does have because whenever you try and superimpose another culture on auto

nation, it doesn't work. you know, colonialism, what did it do? what the colonialist created was us. then lot of people who imitated the colonialists, who and pakistan would be called the westernized elite. but there was a big gap between them and the rest of the population. so, nations evolved organically. the board from all over the world, but they're, they're rooted in their own culture history. if you cut that off, i mean it has severe consequences all over the world when you cut off a country from its roots, a nation and try and if another culture then become neither one thing or the other . nor do we say another, the throttle body and neither quail or a partridge. what has happened after colonialism is that you have a tiny set of elite which pretends that the, that there western and then gap between them and the rest becomes wider and wider.

it's what happen it or are iran. the iranian revolution was that the elite of the shah of iran became cut off from the mass of the population. so there was a huge reaction against it and focused on what we are trying to do is do a, to obviously learn from all advanced societies. and right now the, the nation we can learn most from is china. because if my main emphasis is to raise people out of poverty, nor human society, as a keyboard, china has done so therefore we learn from every one. but we should be rooted in our own culture history, religion, tennis played a subtle, but i think very significant role in facilitating ration, pakistani changes. and i know that recently while visiting beijing, you suggested that his lamb about can act as a mediator between teaching and our washington. what makes you believe, i'm sorry, 15 grand. that what makes you believe that mediation is even possible?

because as far as i understand the american psyche, they're not after understanding, they are not after negotiating on the level playing field. they are after preserving dominance with china agreed to that. look the america. and i know that is very diverse. any country, for instance, what is happening that india is not what indians are like. this is not the india off of narrow. and gandhi, this is the india of not under moody, a tiny, highly organized elite has taken over. and they're just like the nazis took over germany. so you know, at a given point, there is this extreme nationalism which has been released in the us. and they want those dominants. but surely they are sensible voices and the you are saying that conflict is where you are heading gauntlet. gore war is not the way there is another way where it could be women when for all of everyone. and i certainly

believe that the corporation between china and the united states, anyone for that by to russia, will benefit mankind much more than a conflict. i wish i had more time. i have many more questions, but let me ask the final one in and it's a bit cheesy, but i ask and sincerely because you have reached the pinnacle of your sporting career by giving your country. it's 1st and only victory in the cricket world cup. how do you hope to be a remembrance? what do you wanna give to your people as, as a prime minister? that's a simple answer. i would love to emulate china in terms of bringing people out of poverty. do things i want. one thing is if i can bring people out of poverty, but related to that is rule of law. human societies are defined by 2. great thanks, rule of law and a welfare society, a society that is you men and just to looks. ready after, as it's

a people who are not so privileged were poor, and so that's how i want to be looked urban. but if i can bring rule of law in pakistan and razor people out of poverty on the lines, what china has done, i would be able to meet my maker with confidence help. prime minister has been great pleasure talking to you. i hope your team receives as much hospitality as we have benefited from here. best of luck and are you looking forward to my trip to moscow? thank you and thank you for watching hope to see you again. next week i was apart. ah ah.

ah, top headlines right now you're naughty, international and celebrations. and don boss as president putin recognizes the independence of the john yet. and lugens republics and pledges to ensure peace in that region. he is to really, i'm certain we haven't been abandoned and that we have a future. we greeted the knees with tears and we are happy. at least there will now be order. the bombings will stop and people will be able to lead normal lives. germany suspended to know what stream to gas pipeline. as western powers drew up sanctions against moscow. both though the russian foreign minister says western condemnation of law may putin's move was expected. and he says that mince agreement from the ukraine conflict have been trampled on by kiya also in the.