ah, ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . russia's official recognition of the don't the, it's in lugens people's republics. as independent states formally puts to an end what was known as the minced piece process. this recognition also creates a new political fact on the ground, and there is nothing nato can do about it. ah, ross stuck in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess in my pay of in london. she's an analyst on russian and ukrainian affairs, an author of through times of trouble conflict in southeastern ukraine, explained from within in delmar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer and the united nations weapons inspector. and in

sydney we cross a jo loria. he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com, all right, cross hoc rules that affect, that means it can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate, scott, let me go to you 1st here. i made, i made mention in my introduction, the mince piece process. that essentially was something that russia, france, germany were guarantors of. and it was certain things that ukraine had to do to keep lou ganske and done the ets inside the country. this is what russia has been asking. unfortunately, ukraine never implemented it. and even though the germans and the french always said that, they stand by it, they never put any pressure on the government to implemented. then we go to a putin's recognition. russia's recognition of these 2 peoples republics as independent states. so are you going to miss the mince piece process? scott? of course i am, i had uminski pre peace process been implemented, we wouldn't be faced with what, regardless of where you stand,

whether you're pro nato pro russian or in the middle is going to be a very, very difficult, a geopolitical struggle, a going forward. um, you know, i think everybody's gonna miss the mixed mince processor. i think zalinski is going to wake up one morning and recognize that man i should have just done mention of the germans and the french are going to which they had pressured. other, the british are going to wish they had pressured, a ukraine, the united states is going to wake up and realize they made a strategic error not forcing. and i say force because the u. s. controls almost everything ukraine does. so the u. s. could have forced this issue. um, you know, the, in russia's gonna regret it because, you know, while russia's taken a principled stand um, you know, it's in for a hard ride right now. so i think everybody's going to wake up and realize, man, we made a mistake and not, not, not going forward on mence. i think we all have to agree that this is the beginning of something, not the end of something here. and, and show us your book. ok,

so it shows you. but because you're going to be one of the only people in the english speaking media world that's actually going to tell us what the people in done the answer can lugens know, cover your face, derek. okay, we got it, we got it, but i mean, how do the people in these 2 and now at least recognized by one country in the world, russia, how do they feel about it? they never are given any agency whatsoever in western media. so give them a little bit of agency right now. anna in london. go ahead in summer. yes, but it's not something which they wanted at b was they never been separate this around like western me did quite often label them. i would say that he would talk to them if you them would like every dentist, they wanted to join the state where they feel they belong to. so they will i the fighting to join the ration in 2014. when you remind that ukraine was turning into an unfriendly country,

will they have an interest or they wanted to re join a different grade where they will feel more comfortable, more welcoming. so in that sense, kind of making them kind of separate this school, wanted to create this kind of republics. if it's not something which they aspire to school or this is not something which they ultimately want. but in the concentration, it gives them better security guarantees. and that's where the most important point of this process is. now, what we're going to see after that of course, is everybody's guess it might be that he has about something which will stop the war. but it might p s final newest commission as a joke, or where do we go from here? i mean, obviously the as we speak now, new sanctions are being being thought of and probably implemented. we've seen all

of this before. we saw it after crimea and, and the, and the russians go into this with really open eyes here. also we had a north stream twos, a certification has been halted. that is an important issue here, but that is fully, i fully expected that and i think it that certification will continue, probably in a few months at, by the end of the year. it says 2 important to europe into germany. but the russians have made it very clear that their security is very serious for them. i look at all of these meetings, all of this, talk all of this a shuttle diplomacy going nowhere. talk is cheap actions speak a lot and we just got it with the recognition of these to break re republics. jo. yes. love in the coming days, we'll see whether things calm down in the hands and don't ask. that was the reason archer did what they did. so if there is a resumption shelling with russian troops, there'll be very interesting. see what happens. um, we have to hope that is calm, but you're absolutely right. the. the overarching issue here has been european

security. and this began back in december, you know, in spring of last year, russians also had a troop deployment. very similar to the one mr. now, and the u. s. didn't start screaming invasion then. what changed would change was russia put forward these draft proposals to nato, and the united states that they would not allow a ukrainian, or ga, into nato, that they would remove the missiles from poland and romania and it would, most importantly, they would remove forward deployments from the former warsaw pact states, they're now nato members. what did the u. s. do they responded to that? they responded not like a bully, as i always thought the u. s. blogs, but almost like a psycho now because when a victim whose finally standing up for themselves after 20 years and markins don't get this because they've never been invaded before. where russia of course chased the major power and the european power on the 19th and 20th centuries. and defeated both of them. this is a deeply, obviously, in the russian psyche in the americans on understand that we don't want to

understand this. so the idea of nato expanding to the east was clearly seen as russia by russia for 20 years. have 1st pointed out 2007 by a president, putin and munich, a security conference that this had to stop. and finally, when you stand up to bully, most bullies will stand back with united states to doubling down. and in when a victim says, please don't we please remove the nato troops at nissan. you are. what in the u. s . do they put more troops in eastern europe? they said that was in response to the crisis in ukraine, but that style, hundreds of kilometers away, is not in the theatre of expected war. why did they put those troops to? because the issue for us was also, we're not been a, to accept russia standing up to us and the expansion of nato. and that is a very troubling development there. that the u. s. will not even talk about this. they've doubled down and acting in a very strange way and not wanting a russia to have their security. now what happen, of course, is the french and the germans were at least listening and understand it,

particularly micro on that. russia has a point there and that they've had to talk about new security arrangement. now, by, by recognizing the 2 republics, this as the l. a native, direct, french on the germans from russia. maybe i think that the russians finally decided that mince was dead and the american and the british of started the germans in the french were hopelessly an american camp. well, i mean, anna, if i go back to you in london, i mean, i, again, you know, that the russian issue here, primarily is nato expansion. but, you know, they, the nato countries said that they would not some protect you ukraine. they would not defend it with their own troops. and then you have the major western embassies evacuated and they say, i mean, and then lugens and on the exc is finally gone. crimea is gone forever. i mean, it's kind of a moot point. i mean, who and ukraine actually believes that, that the, the west actually wants ukraine and nato. it's ukraine, that keeps losing every single step of the way ana and london is so ways. yeah. but

i would say enough to pictures one us firstly, i don't think that amuse agreements and i think that different government in ukraine can actually ever provide them and take them as a guide, a resolution of the crisis because to be fair and they are not named in the means agreements in that sense of 2014 and 15. so i think it's a nation by russia. now it doesn't mean that music is actually there in current clinical climate. it is not something which is very viable, but it has a big political commitment. yes, i think that they are still valid and they have been handled by the un security council resolution. so we should not be giving up on them in time in terms of the agreement. yes, i would say that the ukranian government felt that it cancels it security program

in the east to the western powers that they got. their tactics offers will be the conflict was to persuade the west to pressure rise. russia for a pressure rise the republics into accepting some kind of 32014 situation that didn't know. yeah. the hard work which was supposed to be happening on your premium plan, as well as in that i didn't really materialize the out sourcing to the west. what on that is pulling global on sanctions level, but it is, it has of course, limitations. what we have seen recently is probably like crazy overreaction, and that it follows what happened in the dentist when the time it

has been bucket under estimated. so the american intelligence did not pick the signals, which obviously was the, that the kind of bomb case just i was away from what they g couple. so now we saw this really disastrous seems to me with the equation. now they thought, all right, let us be prudent, ah, let us preempt that kind of scenario. because if it doesn't look at it unless ag, after a few months, well, i mean, i mean, but then it seems to me that the are, you know, ever since know of november, it's been the u. k. and the united states actually wanted to military conflict. they were, you know, an anthony blinking at the united nations. he's basically projecting making all these accusations. but in fact, that's exactly what the us does all the time, all around the world. i mean, i've never seen a secretary of state to base him so much. i or i and said colin powell, i must say ok so you know, you know, it looks like, you know,

this was much more smoke and mirrors than anything else because it's nothing that they, the intelligence community has said about this makes any sense at all about the jump in here, everybody, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine staying with our team. ah ah oh, more than 20 years have passed since one of the world's deadliest terrorist attacks that took thousands of lives. people started to scream, there was a wave that came off for us. that was like opening up an oven door, but not all wounds of heel. the survivors respond does have increased rates of cancer and other health issues. due to the dust and chemicals they inhaled. i come

here to get my blood cleaned out. the, the metals with obtaining non 11 little of blood cutting in my blood in terms of 1st responder was that was well over a 100001st responders. and there was some estimates that tend to 20 percent still have to yes. son. yeah, but the chief recovery, it's my wife, but i cherish a minute i had with family friends. i thought i was home before is really home, was you appreciate life with

ah, welcome back. across the top, were all things are considered. i'm peter rebel, to remind you we're discussing ukraine. ah. okay, let's go back to scott scott, more than anything else. this has been an information war more. i mean, this looks like the run up to iraq, but on steroids. okay. everyone speaking from the same hem she to, i'm looking at american cable stations. it's got you hear the say mantra approved and wants to rebuild the soviet union without any scant evidence, whatsoever is the case. as a matter fact, i think it's, as you've pointed out or out already on this program here. i mean when you have

your back up against the wall, you're not building an empire trying to maintain what you have. and that's exactly what we've seen going on. which is new version of the crisis since november. go ahead scott. i guess one of the interesting things is that a blood report and gave one of the most honest speeches. a modern politician of global significance is given in some time it matches of it. you know, the only thing that matches it is, is 2007 address. you know, security conference saw, you know, it was, it was a speech. however, that requires a little bit of intellectual competence understand. and unfortunately for present booty, he was speaking over the heads of the american people, american politicians, and the american media. i'm your russian studies has been dead in america since the cold war in rush has been put on the backburner is an insignificant language and insignificant culture. insignificant nation. i in the re emergence of russia as a,

as a global player. as america ill equipped to deal with this reality. and so all we have left is propaganda propaganda. that is not fact based it's. it's designed to support a political narrative not, not a not, not reality. and you say, you know it, the unseen the since iraq. let me make the, the following point in iraq. we were jenina propaganda that could be backed up by military force. meaning that we were selling a war and we were prepared to fight. and we did fight it, we didn't, we didn't do too well, but we, we, we did fight it. here we are, a united states is, is, is pushing forward a narrative that we're ill prepared to deal with our sanctions. i believe we're gonna are going to fall flat where it's going to be a big political statement. you're going to see it unfold in the coming days and weeks. but it's going to go nowhere because russia has had time to prepare for it. a russia didn't just sit back and say, hey, we're going to get ourselves in

a tussle with the west. oh, my goodness, 2nd his we're sanctions. we surrender. that's not going to happen. and the other thing is that russia is a go a, as a, from a foreign policy standpoint, basis, everything they do in a legalistic foundation. it's not simple propaganda. it's not, you know, your artificial narrative. it's, it's founded in legal fact in legal precedent. and that means that russia isn't going to be pushed off of its position of readily. so i think where, you know, the united states is found that we have a lot of hot air floating around. we have nothing of substance, rushes, the only one that's put something of substance out there and in a storm you find that it's the building made out of stone that continues to stand. the flimsy, you know, wouldn't structures that the west has been building. you know, you know, joe, i just kind of echo, went to scott was saying, right there it wheatley, it's been pointed out here in december it was december 17th. the rushes sent

documents to nato and to the united states. and the reply always is, but it's not in line with our values, and that's when, you know, they didn't read the document in that. and that's when you know they have no answer to what would the, the demands that were being made. you always know that they go back to values, whatever they may be here. but you know, each of the problem here for and for policy makers, is that the issues that russia has been bringing up, particularly with those 2 drafted are treaties. they're not being addressed. ok, and until they're addressed, we're going to continue having a situations had been played out in like during this week. so, i mean, it's really incumbent upon western policy makers to start getting their act together because russia is going to start making decisions based on its own definition of security. go ahead, joe. and the united states cannot conceive of themselves as being aggressive. they

still have a world war to fantasy of having defeated hitler. of course, it was russia that mostly defeated hitler. they see themselves as spreading democracy, although they overthrown numerous democracies from chile and guatemala, to ukraine. but they project and you mentioned projection this week they put out a, they sent a letter to the un high commissioner for refugees saying that they had from mimi from intelligence that they didn't cite. of course, they never do that. russia was guarded by completely take over ukraine, including key of that lists of journalists and distance. they were going to capture and kill and torture and concentration camps, and the journalist, etc. and then you look at the united states record in the last couple of decades. i will grab, it was a torture center. they have guantanamo, it's a concentration camp on cuba. they have a journalist, drew in a sergeant prison in london, told just what they were choosing rush of planning to do, and actually using the un as a foil here to try to spread the story they themselves do. and i do believe which

also said, peter, that the u. s. seems to wanted this wars, not quite sure. they were screaming every single day, was a distraction from the nato treaty. the treaties, the draft treaties director put forward, but they seem to have wanted to drag drag brush into a trap in the don bass by starting up this offensive and cleverly, the civilian agents were dealing with her. and let me go to you. do you think now there's going to be pressure from the united states in the u. k. in particular, to mount and offensive against these newly departed m republics? i mean, what did that, what is kim's position right now? they're obviously not very happy about it, but they didn't do very much to keep those 2 republics in. so i mean, where does they can't government stand? now you can say that to some extent came. government can also draw the section for, because you might also have this argument that the a team,

but they didn't really want this can hostile and better that people don't bus back home and they would need to incorporate them. that's really quite difficult. after 8 years old, separate existence. so in that sense it kind of takes no pressure from them to somehow be seen as implementing means agreements. the only thing that people actually doing something. so now they can say ok, we probably wanted to do something, but the station made it impossible. so in that sense on it, if you can say that he has some point which they scored in terms of your argument about the us and the u. k. one to one thing you want, i just need to be so they would want me to have a little bit of a kind of demonstration that said a little commissions here. and then they last you, one crash to be seen as to some extent, go back to having a bit of

a block. and now some of the ministry wanted to see how the western weapons, what before, again the really any me who actually shoots back. but i think the west, well a, if i, with all due respect and i mean the us and other nato countries been pouring a lot of arms, do you grain. and that's for one reason. and one reason only, and that is to use them. and of course, and i say this all my guess here with the u. s. u k, were doing it is very low cost to them. they have no skin in the game except for they want everybody else to fight with. and they want russia, obviously, to be isolated in your let me go to scott right now. it's got, where do we go from this? now, i keep pounding away. is it? russia's demands have not been met. so this isn't far from over. and i'd like to point out to ever since 2014, russia is more or less sanction proof. okay. they've already,

they've already dealt with those issues almost completely across the board. here. a bullies don't like to be shown up in public. ok to be made, complete fools of you know, planning the invasion, the date, the hour. what are we supposed to do? get on the roof with our, with binoculars? i mean, they made complete buffoons out of themselves. they don't like to be shown up like that. go ahead, scott. i think we are in for a long haul and it's going to be very uncomfortable for all parties involved, especially the ukrainians are going to be stuck in the middle. as you pointed out, russia has prepared itself for the reality of sanctions. now we'll see, you know, because prior to this week we had the theory of massive sanctions. russia no sanction. they been saved by the west. the 1014 rush understands how its economy works. it understands what it's vulnerable points are, and i'm sure they've prepared for it. you know, who hasn't prepared for any of this europe in the united states, right? because of these sanctions go down the path. they look like europe is going to

suffer egregiously, their economies will collapse. many of their, many of the european nations there currently are now pounding their chest about how tough they're going to be. are going to be crying in pain as their economies class . and you know, who else is prepared? the american people, when gas prices go through the roof, when inflation goes through the roof. when economy collapses, when their paycheck is worthless? um, their selling can be asking pertinent questions like, what the heck are we doing? and at that point in time, i think you're going to see it in russia isn't going to budge. let me just make that point. i don't believe russia is going to budge. a rush is going to stick to its principles. fixtures. arguments in the west is going to have to come to them. and that's what's ultimately going to happen now. while, while this game is being played about who can now wait home and believe me at russia, can i wait the west? i, there is the question of ukraine. i can this conflict b and find who don't yet lugens in terms of what's currently going. i don't believe

so. i believe that a ukraine is it can't tolerate a zalinski can't survive as a politician and i, the west is going to egg him on. because as you have rightly pointed out, that there are some people in the west who have romanticized, the concept of ukrainian resistance. and you know, and they, and, and, and of course we've poured in the west of being over a $1000000000.00 of modern weaponry. i'm with the reality is ukrainian army isn't probably trained on these weapons. they haven't properly integrated them into their structure. and they like a viable doctrine, tactically, operationally, strategically, to, to use these weapons. his weapons are useless. yeah. so the metal warehouse and um i am afraid that. busy uh. busy you guys are gonna be pissed by the west. i think i have the job and i have the job here on this very depressing. uh, but actually re with you on that. now we have run out of time. many thanks my guest in delmar london. and in sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, rti see you next time. remember crossed hovel

with i was thinking somehow i had to come back because mom was waiting for me. i just knew that everything would be fine. for some reason we were so confident because we were going to get married officially after he came back. how could he not come back? because the mere thought of it never crossed her lines with the militants decided to try and break through. i heard you again. yep. of screaming grenade, google, who are you? an explosion below him. we'll run his bag through a a little and it was all over. all shall we know that our comrades and our commander won't leave us yet. no matter how tough it gets,

where team there interval. if jenny was a senior in his military trio on reading, he knew that if he didn't smother that grenade with his body, more of his comrades would die. he gave his own life to save his friends. oh, well, it shows the wrong one. i'll prove. just don't hold any world yet to see how'd disdain becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. o is your media reflection of reality.

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madness ah, without stop headlines right now. what is the national pensions mounting in dawn bass with a massive explosion going off near a t v station and don't? yes. the newly recognized public accusing ukraine ratcheting up shelling a fresh wave of sanctions target moscow. russia born just the global energy market on which the most pain will be inflicted. that has a defensive decision to protect the russian speaking population of don basses from shuttling attack spending by the time of 90000 people to play the danger there in recent days, by crossing the border into neighboring russia. they're all, there's china. we speak to some of the refugees for extremely terrified. that's why when we heard about the vaccination, we gave up everything and came here. volunteers help.