oh, the wrong one, i'll just don't move any world. yes, to shave out. disdain becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, [000:00:00;00] ah

. if i'm after attention, you're watching a special edition of going underground as today. august sunny by minister him on con, is scheduled to pay a visit to russian president vladimir putin in moscow. the 1st time about hasanti premier's visited russia in over 2 decades. this is so gold peacekeeping, russian troops headed to the breakaway regions of ukraine on yet can to answer the president putin in the russian parliament, a recognized as independent. but can, a full scale will be prevented. long time russia report or an eastern european specialist editor in chief of be any in tele news. been iris jones. we now from berlin. have been thanks so much for coming on. i've got to ask you, i suppose it was there any choice for put in 14000 dead, the continuous shelling that the ukrainian military spokesman said it's fake news. we always emphasize, we do not shoot that civilian infrastructure to some territory, enroll stove region or whatever. that's pavlov. global chak ad putin got any choice

but to do something after the doom are also voted for him to recognize the independent republics. well, my 2nd this is that it's this to can, i mean those that believe that boots in doesn't believe ukraine is the real country and that he's hell bent on destroying it, that he feels that democracy there is threatening him. and then those who think that puts in is what they says in the can this about security concerns that he's afraid of eventual missiles in ukraine, and those would be on the border. they would have under 5 minute flight times and they'll be able to 80 percent versus population. and although nobody's offering ukraine membership of night. so at the moment, you know, it could happen eventually and he's looking to once and for all fix this. and so this is resulted in a game of chicken if you like, in so much as he made those demands in the round pharmacy that started in january, a relatively civilized round. and go to flat, know from the west, but he's not going to let this go. i mean, for him,

this is an essential security question and he wants to have it resolved. and so the obvious thing to do is escalate. and that's what we've just seen. if he's getting a flat out and he's going to restart the conversation, but by significantly escalating by threatening to hire another piece of ukraine in the form of making its own best. that i scanned the guns in independence. and the tensions have gone up radically. and moreover, it's been quite clear that russia would get sanctioned as a result of this, but he's prepared because way i see he started this in 2007 munich when he warned that russia would push back if need to continue to expand. and it did so, then he started modernizing the army in 2012. he sacrifice the prosperity russia build up during the boom years for this effort and builds up. what is it? $630000000000.00 are reserves and insanely huge amount of money paid off the debt.

the russia is one of the lowest that and me, the whole economy, sanction prove. and he's going to go all the way because there's very little leverage. i mean, harsh sanctions are coming. i don't believe they're actually going to hurt the economy in any significant way. they'll raise costs, they keep growth low, but he's prepared to all of that because he's totally focused on solving the security issue. because, you know, agree with him or not, he has to be in his bonnet about nato expansion and the threat that poses. and so he's decided to do something about that. that's the reality. we have to deal with the goods and things like that. and i think he engage in come to some sort of deal, but it's come down to a fight between his pragmatic security concerns versus principal on europe side, about the sovereignty of nations. being able to choose who their partners are. and seeing threatened by russia, which is threatening, i mean, what he's doing is extremely aggressive. this is the most serious crisis. i think

the west is phase since the cuban missile crisis and 62. well, all that and shoring over this over well fund will come as a surprise, given me in a quote to the poor of russia. obviously, given the rise of inequality in russia over the same period, arguably. do you think, lee, i mean, you alluded to russia not getting a fair hearing. do you think? when's lensky had previously been saying? telling by nature leaders stop causing panic to the are grading economy. do you think when he started talking about nuclear weapons positioning in your grade? that was the last. that was the last straw for good. i think the last row was when he, well my crime shows during this european effort that's been going on in february both when says and sky and told him that you need to do the means to agreement. that would so everything. and moreover, you need on the times, russia once,

and that would be to make dumbass, you know, and autonomous region, which gives russia the fact of the so nights. and zalinski flatly refused to do that. more of a code the means to agreements back. it's a waste time and i think that was the point where it's in so that that particular possibility of getting minutes to implement because he clearly so shows an micron. but if you get minutes to implement it, then that will solve it, will be happy, will go away, you know, withdraw from the bus stop interfering with that didn't happen. and that meeting at the end of last week was and it made it clear that he wasn't going to budge on that question. then the next day, all of the problems in dumbass flat up and clearly the criminals been planning this . so the jim about in order to recognize, to republics, this is a car, this being prepared and was played and they put it in a position to make the decision that he's just made. and i think that they've

planned out the whole diplomatic effort very carefully. well, in advance, so it started with the demands in december and then you had january round of diplomacy, which is largely focused on the u. s. hoping that biden would be able to push this through. when i felt then you had your opinion around focused on mints too. but i think last week, zelinski definitively shut that off and said, we're not going to. why would he? i mean, the ukraine is run like the comedy series zelinski was in showing the ukraine to be an utterly corrupt all the god run. her whole country of conspiracy, and this is like zelinski comedy series. who is, can, why would you lensky do this to his own country? that what you mean? give up the dumbass? no. why would he not abide by the means agreements? it's a horrible deal. i mean, you're asking you to basically give up any control over one of the regions. i mean,

it becomes autonomous and then if there's a vote for night, so session membership, then dumbass effectively gets a veto. and quite clearly with, you know, the 700000 passports that rushes handed out, half the population of that region rusher isn't effectively in control of it. i'm so you give up the ability to make these decisions like that succession, which is in, you know, the aspirations, join nato is now in the constitution as a national aspiration in the basic law. and then to give up the power to be able to fulfill that by basically giving control about regions of rush. although normally it stays inside ukraine, i think is something that now government would accept. well, well, it was about to forward un security council by britain. russia, france and i signed the deal. i mean that's the problem. it's the ukrainian signed, signed off and agreed to it, but then pushing himself when, when subsequently he resisted at every stage actually implementing it. i mean,

it was forced on him by macklin on in 2014 to end the fighting that was going on its own bass. and to that extent it works and so much to fight and die down. it's just been a sort of frozen conflict. although people keep dying, but it wasn't a hot conflict in the way that it was. i mean, it was, you know, proper open warfare in those days. now it's just this frozen company. so it's sort of lose lose situation with minutes to that. it helps bring the fighting down, but at the same time it doesn't. it's not an appealing solution. so here that they don't want to do it. and moreover, people and can't say that should zelinski try and push it through. there would be mass process and i was also kill his own kind of career. he's facing action this year. and it's a political suicide to try and push that through. so it's really a bad deal. but as i said, it was the only thing on the table that was the solution, the peaceful solution. because unless he's rolled out and i think quite understandably,

but then persons reacted because the decision is pushed and takes it to the next stage, which is not quite the invasion, the war that everyone's been talking about. but it's certainly going well be on diplomacy. you know the regular sitting around in the pals and i should just say i was in london, moscow. and what she could do support means to still even wants go parallels with the recognition of kosovo, which russia has always criticize that kicked off the you just love, you know, war in the cost of it was just unilaterally recognized. right. bad is western europe. well, i think so, i mean that one of the points here, i mean, one of one of the basic problems is that, you know, you have geo politics going on with big countries, tell little countries what to do. and then you've got the principal, the helsinki process with southern states have a guaranteed rights to make decisions for themselves and me,

all the civilized world and should respect that. and the russians, i think, feel there's a certain amount of hypocrisy here. i mean, a minister brought up a cuban missile crisis. that was very clearly you had a sovereign nation, cuba deciding to ally with his friend, the soviet union and except missiles on to his territory. and jeff k just was like no exception that threatens us charity. and so the whole cuban missile crisis thing started and pigeons arguing that what's going on with ukraine is exactly the same that you've got ukraine that's being used as an unsinkable aircraft carrier. more along the shores of russia, that's going to be a permanent threat. and so big powers. and the way they just stop is that no 2 nations can do a security or that threatened the security of a 3rd country in this case, russia. and that's their argument then when we come back, we're saying the international exchange that has them now thank you. process means that you should respect the sovereign right. other country like you trying to do

a military alliance with whoever wants to without any interference. and so there's a basic, i think russia is obviously going to get on doris and day in venice. or in theory here in the army, is that the west coast of it was an example, and it is big power is deciding what little patterns do. so that's still the way the world works when it suits us, when it doesn't, then we come with the principles and take off a. and the other point here is that the west deals that you know is economically, militarily superior to russia. so that it doesn't need to be pushed around. but the problem with that is that putin is extremely talented at making trouble. and that's what we're seeing. i mean, biden was trying to get rid of the rush of problem to focus on, on china, and what happened. his entire foreign policy has been captured by russia and his entire foreign policy effort is now totally consumed with dealing with russia and had

a victory. and already in so much is that he's put this gender on the table and biden concert and it's not going away. and the people in europe seriously worried about having a war in that backyard, which they really don't want. well, they, people in europe, you speak of just seem to just supple washington all the way through and whether it's by no, jake sullivan around the blinking. i was a different different masha and i suppose the propaganda war now is all about the fact. russia is also broken, it's agreement to the budapest agreement that it made over ukraine and respecting crane it's old, isn't that why and ski brought up nuclear weapons and so much as part of that agreement was that ukraine agreed to give up its, its weapons under budapest, in return for a territorial guarantee by russia. and he was saying there is that russia then ignored back guarantee it gave a try and in the, in the past. and it's the same. well, if you're going to ignore your part of it,

then we'll ignore our part of it and react with nuclear weapons. it's, it's, it's right in a criticism. men are so sub you that more from eastern european specialist and editor in chief of be any until the news after this. great oh, more than 20 years have passed since one of the world's deadliest terrorist attacks that took thousands of lives. people started to scream. there was a wave that came off for us that was like opening up an oven door, but not all wounds of heel. the survivors respond does have increased rates of cancer and other health issues. due to the dust and chemicals they inhaled. coming in to get my blood cleaned out, the metals, a lot of blood cutting in my blood in terms of 1st

responder was, well over a 100001st responders in there was some estimates that 10 to 20 percent still have to yes. so now that the chief recovery is my wife. a minute i have with family friends, i thought i was home before this really homeless, you depreciate why ah

a welcome back. i'm still here with been our season european specialists and editor in chief of be any and tele news now on to the actual sanctions announced by the british government. some of them just following entities that are already sanctioned by the united states. so may i ask, why did they know it's actually or if you have sanctioning them who is get eaten chain go the vulgar group. i understand that they have a 23 percent stake in nova tanks, russia, 2nd largest gas producer construction. they own a rail company. timber infrastructure project is always going to affect many workers in russia. what were you going to mean to him? and boris rothenberg and his nephew, i go and be back there. rush,

his biggest ox and moreover they belong to a so they've known who since they were all in st. petersburg, young man and have grown up together. and then when pushing came to power, the 1st thing you did in the 1st year, you had this famous art meeting and pushed all the, all you got out of the prominent except these are the gods have stepped in and they didn't want to call them the king's the stake contracts, they win all these contracts. for example, the $4000000000.00 bridge that was built between crimea and russia to link it to the mainland. was built by these guys that construction companies like so over here in britain, i mean, the other, all i got kicked out will ones who also benefit from the shock therapy of western business consultant and the privatization that they were a corrupting influence. i mean, because these people are close to boots and personally i was,

and some of these big stay on contracts needed to be given to someone. and so countries in a circle and in a way it was a way of controlling corruption. and so much of the other all ago, we're all charging rents and stealing and for themselves. and these guys who are multi billionaires in the mean time because they were friends with boots and he could trust them to do the right thing. and so they were paid handsome profits, but they weren't necessarily sort of filling their pockets in. so match anyway, i thought well, so they didn't pick on them like he picked on the ones that profit it out of the privatization because of the they obviously profited as well though. yeah. they did, they didn't know. i mean, you know, it's, it's, it's of nepotism and very least, i mean it's, it's an uncomfortable relationship because these guys extremely close to that. they go and hang out and stature that we can. but, but it's done now is targeted the closest interest and you know, they have assets in the houses and what have you. but they're so incredibly wealthy

if they lose a house in grove square because it sees but you can go, it's not exactly going to bloody than us. so what they're doing there won't be any investment, obviously, from these big companies in british infrastructure. or that's all the label there isn't, i mean there's lots of us money coming in in the real estate market. i mean, it comes up to prices. but again, according to deutsche bank, you know, russian money in the real estate kind of 15 percent of the market. so it's not really going to have the british market, but they don't really invest an industry in britain either. and it's more property is more lifestyle, it's them personally. but i think with the sanctions in britain is making a point symbolic gesture going off the people closest to put in. and they going to cause them inconvenience because they won't be able to go to london, is going to make any difference or don't ask. and now it's not, it's symbolic. i'm going off to the banks again,

it's the same sort of thing. it's going to be an inconvenience and it's because of the ownership of those banks that are being sanctioned. but like i said before, the sanctions, i think are ineffective too, because russia as person prepared itself. so the west has very little leverage over them. so what they can do is punish and annoy him, but it doesn't really go beyond that. it's not that i think that's clear on the view of the british government. they obviously think sanctions are a useful tool and i should say, jet girl, the rotten words deny all wrong doing this, right? all this actions. but i mean, one of the banks, problems with bank has partly been owned by the european bank reconstruction and development. i don't know whether people who don't understand that and they have millions of deposit is obviously in russia. so that means that if they have relatives here, they can send money and things like that. but that's a special case. and so much is in 2017. i think it was a crisis in these books,

9 has gotten ring banks and that was one of them. i went down and got taken over by the central bank of russia and it's been restructured. and that one's been read to as now. stay on and it's been really tough to specifically for the defense industry . so it's a military. thank. now it does all the arms deals and facilitates all those deals. and then russia exports $15000000000.00 worth a year. so it's a big business. no idea would be to sell some escrow accounts in london for alms dealing internationally. i mean, russia, russia, so around the world it's got huge contracts with india with china, with brazil with london. so what's the point of this? and if you go off to the bank, i mean is part of the international financial system. and if you block business in london, that's a serious inconvenience. i mean, it's the same with the state. if they put sanctions on the bank, then you can also sanction anybody who does business with it. and so if

a u. s. sanction on a russian bank, that's effectively a global ban on using that bank actual so that it's not stupid. i mean, if they go after it's going to have to find another bank, student business base. all right, well, of course the big story is the delay announced by a love sholtes with a it's a delay. but it's another review, isn't it? it's not actually a cancellation. well, i understand just having no stream to gas pipeline is complete. it has been since september is full of gas. it could be turned on literally tomorrow. however, it was waking, waiting for the german, regulates. it's given, approval has to check to make sure it's not going to be an interest. and what the german government has done is removed one of the documents that gives it permission to function. and because of that document is now missing, there is an incomplete package, which means the regulator cannot approve it,

it becomes impossible. so effectively they've killed it for the meantime, i mean that there's the option of retaining this document and then it will be back on. so you can see it maybe is as a bargaining chip. so just to be clear. so while that is the aide north stream to is delayed, the gas supplying germany from russia goes to pipeline existing biplane through ukraine, north stream one. in fact, no, no, this is just a pipeline. so this ukrainian, or the central root that runs from western siberia through ukraine's here. and then as the north stream rose the northern route collection of pipelines and they were in the north stream, one runs on to the boats in no stream to goes along side and back that they are unaffected. i mean, no stream one is up and running and full capacity and has been and nobody is complaining about. so what difference does it make to russia if the gas is still being piped through ukraine and through these baltic republics,

that are old gung ho with getting into a lot of detail, the no stream pipelines that connected to the new fields in the fields and the cranium pipe is connected to the m p t. fields which are in western siberia. now those fields almost to places and then very old. and guess from one to triple investment into the mpg just keep production flat, whereas your mouth is full of brand new fields full of gas. so russia wants to, from a business perspective, change to mal, which is a 100 years with gas, whereas the m p t and western side barriers to run out of gas. and more time scale . i don't know, 5 years. i mean, like i said that the investment going into those fields to keep producing, going up and up and up. so it becomes less and less profitable. whereas the mount fields with brand new pipelines are extremely profitable. so just from a business perspective, russia wants to switch to these new fields. and the problem is that you can,

the mount fields are not connected to the cranium, but you can sell and send this oxy gas through the cranium, but we'd have to build a whole bunch of interconnections which don't exist. or these 2 are a small, it's the in the short term in the short term, the guess is just flowing through grain from russia. yeah, no, most of it is going through, well, not stream. and there's another northern pipeline. so there's about 40000000 cubic meters going through ukraine, and then there's another 100 going through these other pipelines to the north. they've got ukraine on a minimum now. and the training system could carry 150. so it's being used at the absolute minimum by russia, as part of a political process of trying to get everyone this way. everyone's 10 no string to on, which would totally, it could take up. all of the volumes that are going through right at the moment. could be if you had no stream to working,

then there would be no gas going through kind of so overseas the training academy already suffering if you believe they would say, and the russian economy being helped by the spiking oil prices. and what are you saying about our journalists in this country? and what are you saying about the role of this information oversee ukraine is closed down 5 channels. so you can start with a label either want to close this channel down all around the world. what is the role of information? how should we and people watching this program understand media coverage of this conflict with how the senior crane rush story in particular is that it's become very emotional. you know, we've had like 20 years or less 15 years of demonizing goods and which itself is become a great story that you know, this is believe like even puts in south papers which is probably true to an extent . but the objectivity to some extent is gone out the window because various races

have developed and those rights it's get fed and then again, a lot, you know, then the number of foreign correspondents in moscow is very small. and a lot of people are writing about russia from the outside, then what they do, what they know, their entire background is based on the rates that they've had. you know, what we do is we have, we, you know, we live that we work there and we're trying to balance story and there's lots of good things that happened in has doubled the size of the economy. incomes have gone from $10.00 a month, 20 to $2.00 same level is learned at the you. it's the most prosperous of all of the former soviet union countries that didn't join the years. so there's been successes. but at the same time, you know, he is who he is for mc h, u b officer brought up in the soviet union. and so he's this figure sort of caught between these 2 wells at the same time on the other sides because of the decaying relationships that he's being progressively demonized. so we have this expression

puts in russia in so much is the implication there is, there a country belongs to him and he runs it like the czar and sees aggressive and k g, b, and shoots journalists and crushes the opposition. and some of that stuff does happen is not entirely reform country, and that's the narrative against tolls and the other stuff. the success is the transformation gets ignored. some of the business pester it. but when you look at the market markets overweight in russia has been so recently been market, laughs, russia. so, but back story is still contained within banking circles and dads, l that's all seen as propaganda, as you know, by the nurse. thank you. and that's her for the show will be back on saturday, 10 years to the day, unarmed, 17 year old treyvon martin was gone down by george zimmerman who was later acquitted smoking mass protests in the beginning of the black lives matter movement until then he would touch fire all our social media, let us know whether you think there will be now

a full scale war in europe. with a to see how it becomes the answer to an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will to part, we choose to look for common ground. russia's official recognition of the dullness in logan's people's republics. as

independent states formerly puts to an end what was known as the men's peace process. this recognition also creates a new political fact on the ground, and there is nothing nato can do about it. ah don vasily to say ukrainian forces have stepped up cross border shell fire in the wake of russia's recognition of the new republics. and the head of the don, yes, peoples republic deny is western reports of russian troops entering the area while saying they could be brought in, if indeed, that conflict escalates other western powers at russia with a wave of sanctions. but moscow says, soaring energy prices are going to hurt consumers worldwide. and as we understand,

the 10s of thousands of people have fled, gone back in recent days by approaching the border into neighboring russia. here on