council would constitute a flagrant violation of the prohibition of the use of force security council resolution. 1441 does not authorize the use of force. now, okay, we may not be talking about war here, but the recognition of breakaway regions as independent. but if we take another look back, can surprise surprise. we see another example straight from the usa textbook washington was full of congratulations for casa off to recognizing its independence . in light of the conflicts of the 900 ninety's. independence is the only viable option to promote stability in the region back then they said it was the only peaceful resolution, but it seems there's no a deering to tradition as regards lugens and dynette regions now. so those who do not learn lessons from history may be doomed to repeat it. but when it comes to the west, the u. s. and nato, it seems a total lack of awareness, means they blindly accuse others of repeating their own history without ever gazing back at their own checkered past or to we are still keeping our eyes on the world

hotspot abuse and ukraine right now, you might have seen the officials in the break way republics giving their 1st have a press conference this at this afternoon, quoting to them there are no russian soldiers in the don bass, but that well goes in stark contrast to what the western media and politicians are saying. they sang, the russian invasion has already begun. well, no need to panic. not quite yet. anyway, we'll try to clear things up the top of the hour. we're back soon here on our team . ah. now it shows thing wrong $1.00 oh $3.00. just don't hold me yet to see out the see because the applicant and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will to part we choose to look for common ground.

ah ah, with money across the entire ocean capital visiting to national with ah, ah ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle.

russia's official recognition of the don't the, it's in lugens people's republics. as independent states formally puts to an end what was known as the minced piece process. this recognition also creates a new political fact on the ground. and there is nothing nato can do about it. ah, cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess anna mateo vine, london. she's an analyst on russian and ukrainian affairs in author up through times of trouble conflict in southeastern ukraine, explained from within in del mar, we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer and united nations weapons inspector. and in sydney we cross jo loria. he is the editor in chief of consortium news dot com or a cross hoc rules that affect, that means it can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate, scott, let me go to you 1st here. i made, i made mention in my introduction,

the mince piece process. that essentially was some things that russia, france, germany were guarantors of. and it was certain things that ukraine had to do to keep lugens and done the ets inside the country. this is what russia has been asking. unfortunately, ukraine never implemented it. and even though the germans and the french always said that, they stand by it, they never put any pressure on the government to implemented. then we go to a putin's recognition. russia's recognition of these 2 peoples republics as independent states. so are you going to miss the mince piece process? scott? of course i am. i had the mince, pie, pre piece process been implemented, we wouldn't be faced with what, regardless of where you stand, whether you're pro nato pro russian or in the middle is going to be a very, very difficult, a geopolitical struggle, a going forward. um, you know, i think everybody's going to miss the mixed mince processor. i think zalinski is

going to wake up one morning and recognize that man, i should have just done mention of the germans and the french are going to which they had pressured of the british. we're going to wish they had pressured, a ukraine. the united states is going to wake up and realize they made a strategic error not forcing. and i say force because the u. s. controls almost everything ukraine does. so the u. s. could have forced this issue. um, you know, the, in russia's gonna regret it because, you know, while rushes taken a principled stand um, you know, it's in for a hard ride right now. so i think everybody's going to wake up and realize, man, we made a mistake and not, not, not going forward on mence. i think we all have to agree that this is the beginning of something, not the end of something here, and show us your book. ok, so it shows you, but because you're going to be one of the only people in the english speaking media world that's actually going to tell us what the people in done the answer can lugens no cover your face, derek. okay, we got it. we got it. but i mean,

how do the people in these 2 and now at least recognized by one country in the world, russia, how do they feel about it? they never are given any agency whatsoever in western media. so give them a little bit of agency right now. anna in london, go ahead in summer. yes, but it's not something which they wanted because they never been separated around like western media quite often. label them. i would say that if you would talk academically, them will like it dentist. they wanted to join the state where they feel they belong to. so they will i the fighting to join the ration in 2014. when you remind that ukraine was turning into an unfriendly country, will they have an interest or they wanted to re join a different grade where they will feel more comfortable, more welcoming. so in better sense, kind of making them at

a separate school. wanted to create this kind of republics. if it's not something which they aspire to school or this is not something we say ultimately want, but in the concentration, it gives them better security guarantees. and that's where the most important point of this process is. now, what we're going to see after that of course, is everybody's guess it might be that he has about something which will stop the war. but it might p s final new commission as a joke, or where do we go from here? i mean, obviously the as we speak now, new sanctions are being being thought of and probably implemented. we've seen all of this before. we saw it after crimea and, and the, and the russians go into this with really open eyes here. also, we had a north stream twos, a certification has been halted. that is an important issue here, but that is fully. i fully expected that and i think it that certification will

continue, probably in a few months at by the end of the year. it says 2 important to europe and to germany, but the russians have made it very clear that their security is very serious for them. i look at all of these meetings, all of this talk all of the shuttle diplomacy going nowhere. talk is cheap actions speak a lot and we just got it with the recognition of these to break re republics. jo. yes. love in the coming days, we'll see whether things calm down in the hands and don't ask. that was the reason archer did what they did. so if there is a resumption shelling with russian troops, there'll be very interesting. see what happens. oh, we have to hope that is calm, but you're absolutely right. the. the overarching issue here has been european security. and this began back in december, you know, in spring of last year, russians also had a troop deployment. very similar to the one mr. now, and the u. s. didn't start screaming invasion then. what changed would change was

russia put forward these draft proposals to nato, and the united states that they would not allow a ukrainian, or ga, into nato, that they would remove the missiles from poland and romania and it would, most importantly, they would remove forward deployments from the former warsaw pact states, they're now nato members. what did the u. s. do they responded to that. they responded not like a bully, as i always thought the u. s. blogs, but almost like a psycho now because when a victim who's finally standing up for themselves after 20 years and miracles don't get this because they've never been invaded before. where russia of course chased the major power and the european power on the 19th and 20th centuries. and defeated both of them. this is a deeply, obviously, in the russian psyche in the americans on understand that will don't want to understand this. so the idea of nato expanding to the east was clearly seen as russia by russia for 20 years. and 1st pointed out 2007 by a president, putin and munich, a security con conference that this had to stop. and finally,

when you stand up to bully, most bullies will stand back with the united states to doubling down. and when a victim says, please don't really please remove the nato troops at nissan. you are. what did the u. s? do they put more troops? yes, right in eastern europe, they said that was in response to the crisis in ukraine, but that style, hundreds of kilometers away, is not in the theatre of expected war. why did they put those troops there? because the issue for us was also, we're not gonna to accept russia standing up to us and the expansion of nato. and that is a very troubling development there. that the u. s. will not even talk about this. they've doubled down and acting in a very strange way and not wanting a russia to have their security. now what happened, of course, is the french and the germans were at least listening and understand it, particularly micro on that. russia has a point there in that they've had to talk about new security arrangement. now by, by recognizing the 2 republics, this as the l. a native,

direct french on the germans from russia. but i think that the russians finally decided that minsk was dead. and the american and the british of started the germans and the french were hopelessly in american camp. well, i mean, if i go back to you in london, i mean, i, again, you know, that the russian issue here, primarily is nato expansion. but you know, they, the nato countries said that they would not some protect you ukraine. they would not defend it with their own troops. and then you have the major western embassies evacuated and they say, i mean, and then lugens and on the exc is finally gone. crimea is gone forever. i mean, it's kind of a moot point. i mean, who and ukraine actually believes that, that the, the west actually wants ukraine and nato. it's ukraine that keeps losing every single step of the way ana and london is always yes, but i would say enough to pictures one us firstly, i don't think that amused agreements and i think that different government in ukraine can actually ever provide them and take them as a guide,

a solution of the crisis because to be fair and they are not named in the means agreements in that sense of 2014 and 15. it's not important the only commission by russia. now it doesn't mean that music is actually that in current clinical climate, it is not something which is very viable, but it has a big political commitment. yes, i think that they are still valid and they have been handled by the un security council resolution. so we should not be giving up on them in time in terms of the agreement. yes, i would say that the ukranian government felt that it councils, it security program in the east to the western powers that they are offers will be the conflict was to persuade the west to pressurized russia

for us to do something and also pressure the republics into accepting some kind of create 2014 situation that didn't work. yeah. the hard work which was supposed to be happening on your premium plan as well as in the rush, i didn't really materialize the out sourcing to the west. what's on that is pulling hello on sanctions level, but it is, it has of course limitations. what we have seen recently is probably like crazy overreaction. and that follows what happened in them. when the stress time it has been bucket under estimated. so the american intelligence did not pick the signals, which obviously was the at that time if i'm case just i was away from what they g

couple. so now we saw this really disastrous seems to me with the equation. now they thought, all right, let us be prudent, let us preempt that kind of scenario. because if it doesn't look at it unless ag, after a few months, well, i mean, i mean, but then it seems to me that we are, you know, ever since no november, it's been the u. k. and the united states actually wanted to military conflict. they were, you know, in anthony blinking at the united nations. he's basically projecting making all these accusations. but in fact, that's exactly what the us does all the time, all around the world. i mean, i've never seen a secretary of state to base him so much. i said colin powell, i must say ok so you know, you know, it looks like, you know, this was much more smoke and mirrors than anything else because it's nothing that the, the intelligence community has said about this makes any sense at all about the jump in here everybody, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine staying with our team.

ah ah ah . ah, welcome back to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter rebel,

to remind you we're discussing ukraine. ah, okay, let's go back to scott scott: more than anything else. this has been an information war more. i mean, this looks like the run up to iraq, but on steroids. okay. everyone speaking from the same hem she to be looking at american table stations. it's got you hear the say mantra approved and wants to rebuild the soviet union without any scant evidence, whatsoever is the case. as a matter fact, i think is, as you pointed out, all right out already on this program here. i mean, when you have your back up against the wall, you're not building an empire trying to maintain what you have. and that's exactly what we've seen going on, which is new version of the crisis since november. go ahead. scott. like, you know, one of the interesting things is that i'm glad report and gave one of the most honest speeches. a modern politician of global significance is given in some time.

it matches up. it is the only thing that matches it as, as 2007 address munich, security conference saw, you know, it was, it was a speech. however, that requires a little bit of an intellectual competence understand. and unfortunately for present booty, he was speaking over the heads of the american people, the american politicians, and the american media. i'm, your russian studies has been dead in america since the cold war in russia has been put on the back burners and insignificant language and insignificant culture. insignificant nation. i in the re emergence of russia as a, as a global player. as america ill equipped to deal with this reality. and so all we have left is propaganda propaganda. that is not fact based it's. it's designed to support a political narrative not, not a not, not reality. and you say, you know,

at the n c, the since iraq, let me make the, the following point in iraq, we were jenina propaganda that could be backed up by military for spinning that we were selling a war. and we were prepared to fight. and we did fight it, we didn't, we didn't do too well, but we, we, we did find it. here we are, a united states is, is, is pushing forward a narrative that we're ill prepared to deal with our sanctions. i believe we're gonna are going to fall flat where it's going to be a big political statement. you're going to see it unfold in the coming days and weeks. but it's going to go nowhere because russia has had time to prepare for it. a russia didn't just sit back and say, hey, we're going to get ourselves in a tussle with the west. oh, my goodness. second is, we're sanctions. we surrender. that's not going to happen. and the other thing is that russia is a go a as a, from a foreign policy standpoint, basis every thing they do in a legalistic foundation. it's not simple propaganda. it's not, you know,

the artificial narrative. it's, it's founded in legal fact in legal precedent. and that means that russia isn't going to be pushed off of its position of readily. so i think where, you know, the united states is found that we have a lot of hot air floating around. we have nothing of substance, rushes, the only one that put something of substance out there and in a storm you find that it's the building made out of stone that continues to stand. the flimsy, you know, wouldn't structures that the west has been building. you know, you know, joe, i just kind of echo, went to scott was saying, right there it wheatley, it's been pointed out here in december it was december 17th. the rushes sent documents to nato and to the united states. and the reply always is, but it's not in line with our values, and that's when, you know, they didn't read the document in that. and that's when you know they have no answer to what would the, the demands that were being made. you always know that they go back to values

whatever they may be here. but you know, each of the problem here for that, for policy makers, is that the issues that russia has been bringing up, particularly with those 2 drafted treaties. they're not being addressed. ok. and until they're addressed, we're going to continue having a situations had been played out in like during this week. so, i mean, it's really incumbent upon western policy makers to start getting their act together. because russia is going to start making decisions based on its own definition of security, go ahead. joe. in the united states cannot conceive of themselves as being aggressive. they still have a world war to fantasy of having defeated hitler. of course, it was russia that mostly defeated hitler. they see themselves as spreading democracy, although they've overthrown numerous democracies from chile and guatemala, to ukraine. but they projected you mentioned projections this week they put out a, they sent

a letter to the un high commissioner for refugees saying that they had from mimi from intelligence that they didn't cite. of course, they never do that. russia was guarding, but i completely take over ukraine, including key of that lists of journalists and dissonant. they were going to capture and kill and torture and concentration camps, and journals, etc. and then you look at the united states record in the last couple of decades. so i will grab, it was a torture center. they have guantanamo, it's a concentration camp on cuba. they have a journalist, drew in a sergeant prison in london, told just what they were choosing russia planning to do. and actually using the un as a foil here to try to spread this story that they themselves do. and i do believe what you also said beated that the u. s. seems to wanted this wars, not quite sure. they were screaming every single day was a distraction from the nato treaty. the treaties, the draft treaties director put forward. but they seem to wanted to drag drag brush into a trap in the don bass by starting up this offensive and cleverly,

the civilians were evacuated. first, the recognition of the republics putting russian troops in there to try it in a peacekeeping role in a country they now legally recognized they were invited it because no other country does recognize that the american response was quite mute in a way, strangely enough. they didn't, and called it the invasion right away that they are expecting. so they want them to go to key of and you know, if biden says 8.2.4000000 innocent people in t ever going to be bonding a dying their beds from russian bombs. but then they say to defending ukraine, i mean, it undercuts the credibility of that. they really believe this will happen by not sending troops there. if they american sent troops, and i'm not advocating they do that, of course. but it's, they really believed ukraine was going to be able to run like this. you know, how could they let this happen because they don't give a damn, i mean, any ill innovate, you know, and the afghan government forces were, again, able to hold the country. okay. i mean, right, this is a kind of intelligence we're dealing with her. and let me go to you. do you think

now there's going to be pressure from the united states in the u. k. in particular, to mountain offensive against her? these newly departed republics. i mean, what are the, what is kim's position right now, they're obviously not very happy about it, but they didn't do very much to keep those 2 republics in. so i mean, where does they can't government stand? now you can say that to some extent came, government can also draw the section for because you might also have this argument that the a is back. they want to the satisfaction of restoring the territorial integrity. but they didn't really want this kind of hostile and bitter that people don't back home and they would need to incorporate them that's really quite difficult after 8 years old, separate existence. so in that sense, it kind of takes no pressure from them to somehow be seen as implementing music agreements with people actually doing something. so now they

can say ok, we probably wanted to do something, but the station made it impossible. so in that sense, and if, if you can't say that he has some point which they scored in terms of your argument about the us and the u. k. one to one thing you want, i can be so they would want me to have a little bit of a kind of demonstration that said a little skin missions here. and then they last you, one, crash to be seen as to some extent, a bit like a nouns. some of the minutes can be want to see how the western weapons, what before again the really any me who actually should back. but i don't think that the west, well, a, with all due respect,

and i mean the us and other nato countries been pouring a lot of arms into your grain. and that's for one reason and one reason only. and that is to use them. and of course, and i say this all my guess here with the u. s. u k, were doing it is very low cost to them. they have no skin in the game except for they want everybody else to fight with. and they want russia, obviously to be isolated in europe. let me go to scott right now. it's got where do we go from this now? because i keep pounding away it rushes demands have not been met. so this isn't far from over. and i'd like to point out to ever since 2014 russia is more or less sanction proof. ok, they birdie, they've already dealt with those issues almost completely across the board. here. a bullies don't like to be shown up in public. ok to be made, complete fools of you know, planning the invasion, the date, the hour. what are we supposed to do? get on the roof with our, with binoculars? i mean, they made complete buffoons out of themselves. they don't like to be shown up like that. go ahead, scott. i think we are in for

a long haul and it's going to be very uncomfortable for all parties involved, especially the ukrainians are going to be stuck in the middle. as you pointed out, russia has prepared itself for the reality of sanctions. now we'll see, you know, because prior to this week we had the theory of massive sanctions. russia no sanction, they've been sanctioned by the west of the 1014 rush, understands how its economy works and understands what it's vulnerable points are. and i'm sure they've prepared for it, you know, who hasn't prepared for any of this europe in the united states, right? because of these sanctions go down the path. they look like europe is going to suffer egregiously. their economies will collapse. many of their, many of the european nations there currently are now pounding their chest about how tough they're going to be, are going to be crying in pain as their economies class. and, you know, who else is prepared. the american people, when gas prices go through the roof, when inflation goes to the roof when the economy collapses,

when their paycheck is worthless. there's only gonna be asking pertinent questions like, what the heck are we doing? and at that point time, i think you're going to see it in russia isn't going to budge. let me just make that point. i don't believe russia is going to budge. a rush is going to stick to its principles. of jewish arguments in the west is going to have to come to them. and that's what's ultimately going to happen. now. while, while this game is being played about who cannot wait home and believe me at russia cannot wait the west. there is the question of ukraine. i can this conflict be confined to, don't yet lugens in terms of what's currently going. i don't believe so. i believe that a ukraine is it can't tolerate the zalinski can't survive as a politician. and i, the west is going to egg him on because as you have rightly pointed out, that there are some people in the west who have romanticized, the concept of ukrainian resistance. and, you know, and they, and, and, and of course we've poured in west being over

a $1000000000.00 of modern weaponry. i'm, but the reality is ukranian army isn't probably trained on these weapons. they haven't properly integrated into their structure and the like a viable doctrine, patrick lee, operationally, strategically to, to use these weapons which webpage are useless in the rental warehouse. and um, i'm afraid that. busy busy you guys are gonna be pushed by the west. i think that i have that job and i have the job here on this very depressing, but actually re with you on that. now we've, we've run out of time many thanks. my guest and del mar, london, and, and sydney. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, rti see you next time, remember crossed hubble with ah, ah, more than 20 years have passed since one of the world's deadliest terrorist attacks that took thousands of lives. people started to scream, there was

a wave that came up for us. that was like opening up an oven door, but not all wounds of heel. the survivors and responders have increased rates of cancer and other health issues due to the dust and chemicals they inhaled. come in to get my blood cleaned out by the metals with obtaining love. love led me to my blood in terms of 1st responder with well over a 100001st responders. and there were some estimates that tend to 20 percent still have a cheat full recovery. it's my wife, but i cherish a minute. i have with friends. i thought i was horrible before this really home was you depreciate life with

ah, with don't boss leaders say ukrainian forces have stepped off cross border shell fire ever since russia recognized the new republic? the head of the don. yes, people's republic denies western reports of russian troops entering the area while saying they could be brought in if that conflict escalates further. meantime, western power to russia with a wave of sanctions, while moscow says soaring, energy prices are going to be hotel consumers worldwide. and tens of thousands of flat adorned vast in recent days by.