this is logically time for booting to strike and he hats. now president, the ukrainian president, william is lensky, has said that he feels abundant by his allies in nato. do you think that is the case? the outcomes in hundreds of millions of dollars of lethal aid, would you expect them to do more nato? i think, checked in early on in this process and let everyone know there would be no military intervention. which of course, is what nato is there for, an attack on nato country as an attack on all nato countries. luckily, for nato, you green is not yet in nato, and so they're not driven by their contract and their agreements to protect your grain. but all the same, the purpose of nato is to put a hand on the forehead of a strong soviet union. now a strong russia and trying to hold it back and prevented from going crazy on the world stage. and now nato has said that we're not going to do that. and it's up to who joe biden, and a week in united states in energy terms and military terms and

a leadership turns. and so it's not at all the surprise that newton has done it. and i do not expect any significant intervention or action by america ordinate joe from here on out, it's over. well, dave, i'm afraid, does all we've got time for now, but for a thank you very much for your insights into this just a perkins radio host and political analyst. thank you. peter or european reaction has been pouring in since the starts of the russian operation in ukraine. the british foreign secretary, for instance, outline new sanctions aimed at devastating rushes economy policy. as more the president of the european commission, a shallow funder lion has said that putin chose to bring wool back to europe. now this is factually incorrect. you need to a member of course, that the war has been ongoing since 2014. so that's 8 years and the western media and went down to the folder for not pointing that out. in fact,

in the last 4 years. so if we're looking at just simply from 2008 for a loan, that they have been 381 civilians who have been killed in the don best region. and that is according to united nations figures. this is 5 times more measures the, the number of people who have been killed in territories that are controlled by kids. and the vast majority of these people who've been killed, in fact, of 80 percent, are in these groups who would have makers, who have the kid independence. this is what ocean the fun, the lion had to say. my children are dying of fear for their lives. we condemned this barbaric attack and the cynical arguments to justify it. it is president putin was bringing war back to europe. now we have received a leaked text regarding this meeting that is currently underway. and it says that

e leaders will call for sanctions also to be imposed against bella worse for supporting russia in this military action. united. so if you follow who is g, i representative of the new full for foreign affairs for it made these comments. ready, then i'll do b and gone chill. regina michelle high school for a meeting are due to be and gone. she'll this evening and they will agree and provide food together guidance to adopt the stronger package, the harsh it baggage. those sanctions we haven't ever implemented is not the quick general blush. is not a question, no diplomatic power games is a matter of life and death earlier, the g 7 met virtually, and they say that they will and poured by unprovoked and unjustified attacks by russia. they said that this military action was preceded by fabricated plains and

unfounded allegations. the g 7 saying that this is fundamentally changed. united atlantic security situation, and that they are going forward severe and coordinated economic and financial planning. sanction. that's all for now. money's pizza scott's and i'll be back again at the top of the hour with ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . moscow repeatedly warned. it would not tolerate ukraine being used by nato to threaten russia's national security. those warnings were not taken seriously. even dismissed out of hand. what we are witnessing is the cuban missile crisis in

reversed and this could have easily been avoided. ah. cro, sucking events in ukraine. i'm joined by my guest. alessandra bruno in toronto. he's an analyst at golf state analytics, and in osland we have down to bar. he's an anti war activist and a radio show host, or a gentleman, cross sock rules and effect. that means he can jump in any time you want. i always appreciate it. i'll sandra, let me go to you 1st in toronto. we have big our changes. so when i woke up this morning and started reading the news in my heart, sunk for everybody involved, this could have been very much avoided. i all through the day, thinking about our, our, our recording here. i was thinking of the munich conference in 2017, when potent warned nato about its expansion about it's the stabilizing effect in

pan european security. and here we are today, go back to december 17th of last year, asking nato, asking the united states to reconsider the architecture for european security. because was it because it would be had become inherently unstable and against russia's enter. and here we are today, and i like i just said, no one is a winner. your thoughts on this sad day go ahead in toronto. yes, it was shocking for me. i for me, it was evening. and i opened the news and i saw what was happening. and while i was hoping until the last moment, in fact, i was surprised. but at the same time, not surprised. i wrote a piece that titled it's a trap. and i think perhaps the calculation and the crumbling was, will take the trap because the alternative is worse, which means this would have ukraine live inevitably fall into nato's lap.

and then the situation would have been worse, and i think it has played out as a cuban missile crisis in reverse. in fact, this is exactly the same situation. the, you know, if we, if you don't take out the missiles, we will. and that's what i've put in seems to have done overnight. i'm not sure what the situation is like later how the things are progressing. what i've seen the focus. busy has been on military bases for the time being but it's a shock and unfortunately, i think russia will pay, will be made to pay a high price as, and i think europe will pay a huge price as well. it's a, it's everyone's shooting on the wrong feet. here and they could have been

completely avoided not once, but several times or 8 years to change, to consider even open to the idea of changing the architecture, which is completely it's not even useless. it's completely inappropriate. because the nato was designed to protect europe from soviet russia. soviet union, the soviet union has long finished. it's no longer in existence. so nato should have been. the architecture should have been changed already in 1992. this is already, we are 30 years too late. don, you know, the, you know, when i was this morning when i was watching events on hold and checking around, various news outlets trying to get my head around what was going on. the thought entered my head that the post cold war era is finally over. we're in the new epa right now. i don't know what to call it, but the, the, the europe, the pannier

a p in security architecture came into existence. after the end of the soviet union, at the end of the cold war, now it is completely collapsed because it is security is indivisible. if one country is threatened all are, and this is the situation that we've come to know. and ukraine is paying a very heavy price for not making a choice. we had the men's got accords wanting to, it was a way out. there was a guarantor, russia, france, germany, france, and germany did nothing. they sat on their hands for 8 years. and they were supposed to be guarantors to this. they did not push camp to commit to itself. and this is where we are starting monday would be with russia, recognizing the don republics. and now what we have now disarming ukraine, the name of this program, don, your thoughts they have a real complex puzzle of, you know, different pieces interacting, the geopolitical considerations of these,

you know, economic, political. ready blocks are the one that, you know, is more or less comprised a much of the world up until recently, the hedge am on really are the rising eurasian global competitors, how it's viewed in washington anyway, the in other words, eurasia building and standing on its own. m and a charting at its own future, which is a thread of course, to those who have designs on the future of eurasia for themselves. the goal of the united states looking at russia in particular, what china tube hasn't changed really from the goal of france in the 19th century and of germany in the 20th century. they see, siberia, in essence, asian, russia, and china as the africa of the 21st century where they're going to go in and

capture all the mineral wealth. rather than dragging laborer thus slaves off, you have highly skilled a technical workers. they want to extract value from them working from megan for the corporations in the west, at the direction of people in the west and the foreign policy, the united states and the ear was directed towards that. you cannot really have any other interpretation for the placement of military forces along russia's borders from the baltics to the korean peninsula, including those things that would negate roches ability to respond in the event of an attack. this is a 1st strike. you know contraption that's been installed around russia. oh, great. oh no, john don, not what we're told over and over again. nato is a defensive ally and it's a defense of alliance. you know, it's delta burge, he has that on speed dial. it's all he can say here. i mean, this is what we keep hearing and speaking of now to let nato, let me quote here. nato claims that it is made every effort to pursue diplomacy and

dialogue with russia and has repeatedly invited it for talks to in the nato, russia. council. let me go back to toronto, how do you respond to that? you know, we've been asking for talk, but yeah, that's all it is, is talks. that's what so frustrating when every opportunity is put on the table for a negotiated resolution to this, that was always pushed off the table. this is what so infuriating. go ahead and toronto, indeed. and in fact, it seemed to me that your opinions remembered not to mention, nato remembered the men's chords only, maybe a couple of hours after the, after the attacks began. that's when all of a sudden they started calling out men's and the rushes failure to abide by those agreements. so it's, it's a one way situation, but also natal has become stifling because it prevents the various countries which

are already bound by rules. for example, in germany, france, italy have to abide by the e u rules and then there is a nato one and the individual foreign policy and the pursuit of individual interests is completely cancelled out. there is france, italy, germany has 0 interest in going along with the nato attitude, one loses they all lose, lose gas. and then there are the other problems that i found out. of course, we will probably go up and my favorite pasta will cost a lot more because of this. so the, i can't believe the nato has actually interfered with the individual interests of the various powers that it represents. it's become utterly useless. not to mention

it. i don't have words, in fact it's very angering and i've never quite understood that it's point any more after 1992 doors, so pack was dismantled. it should have been dismantled. fair and square then. yeah, i mean we are, we hear this a lot from earth. everything must have reciprocity, but the warsaw pact collapse, but nato didn't. so where is the reciprocity there? i don't, i don't cedar live don. let me quote the, my ursula underline of the e u. m. we condemn this barbaric attack and the cynical arguments used to justify it. how do you respond to that after all of this shuttle diplomacy that we had for actually, you know, 6 weeks, 2 months before prior to these events? i, i find it very hard to take that seriously. go, had done well start with the previous architecture for security in europe. you

have a germany divided in 4 parts. mostly that a concession by the way, by the soviet union, because the soviet union really defeated germany. and perhaps you could make a case also that the u. s. in the u. k. had a hand in it, france collaborated with germany. they should have divided france also to be honest . but you had this division and you had buffer countries, in essence, the warsaw pact, countries for all of the ideological stuff that he side used against it. there. there were indigenous communist parties or indigenous capitalists parties. there was like, well this is close to us. we don't want to be invaded from here. again. let us have paul. one is the buffer czechoslovakia is a buffer, romania, bulgaria, et cetera. that was the agreement and western europe was handed to the united states. in essence, the united states occupied and still occupies that the soviet union withdrew from

germany on an agreement that it's now been rat, you know, 4 or 5 different people who were involved. have confirmed that with the documents that the agreement was there would not be any further movement of nato beyond the elm. and yet, there has been after the collapse of the soviet union, the alleged res, on for the creation of nato. it moved all the way to the borders of russia. how else can you interpret that? ok, gentlemen, we will interpreted or we're going to go to a hard break here. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on what's happening in ukraine. stay with our ah ah ah,

food. welcome back across stock were all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing events in ukraine. ah. okay gentlemen, i want to talk about 2 related topics here. first of all, let's talk about energy. let's talk about the nord stream to and of course the gambit to, in my opinion, this is all about trying to neutralize russia from europe to, for the west, to focus to sanctions on china. which i think is a stupid fever dream. but i think it's in the cards here. first of all, i let it go to toronto, let's talk about energy. let's look at the history of nord stream, too hot. what was its origins up? i remember germany requested russia to build a 2nd pipeline. it was a german idea,

and the russians built it at a very hefty some. okay, of course, when you look at western media, particularly american media, they talk about it is it's an american pipeline. you know, i don't know why joe biden or donald trump or anyone else in any american administration feels they have ownership of something that they don't own. but that's exactly how they talk about it in media. so europe now is experiencing a severe energy crunch. and there is a pipeline that could be full of gas, but they don't want to fill it up because somehow this benefits rush. it actually benefits consumers and producers, but i don't want to get too technical here. i was sandra, i mean, you know, it's almost out to the point of absurd, the way they're talking about energy because it's the u. s. that wants to capture the european market at a huge premium. it's a good power play for the americans and for their, their control over europe as we will talk about later. say, look to china, m,

i over the target. go ahead. no, peter, i think this is exactly right. in fact, i think ultimately the reason for the lack of understanding from the west and particularly from the united states is north stream to the north stream. 2 stood in the way of american l. n. g. ship delivered by ship, you know, very expand, expensive and very dangerous because the u. s. has been increasing its production of energy. it needs the market. so the nor string to was a huge obstacle. the other problem, of course, is that of europe's actually, the world's on making this, the climate change story has increased to such an extent, making unreasonable and, you know, dream like solar and wind energy as if, you know, there's enough space for all that. the only solution in europe, germany shut down,

it's nuclear reactors. there's perfectly cheaper many cheaper sources available. but know they, in the name of this, that early ideology, they, they need natural gas to fuel the, the green revolution. they've made the natural gas much more important and they go and shoot their own foot by interfering with making it now impossible. perhaps in a couple of months we may have some talks again to reopen, but certainly the target, i think for this entire thing was nor string to from the beginning. yeah, let's go back to don don. i think that's absolute. i mean, i think that's one of the most important layers here. i mean, centrally would, and energy is the means to, to, to do this is to, you know, what they want to do is they want to shut russia out of europe. ok. that has been the entire of thinking since the end of the cold war is that quote unquote, russia,

the soviet union is defeated. now we push it out of europe. american hegemony maintained. and germany was always the wild card there because it's the power house of europe. it's the economic powerhouse of europe. and you have to make sure the germans cannot make amends. make a work with the russians. this is what the atlantis is. we hate the most and they're winning their winning right now. and the 2nd caveat that i, how here china, how does this play into it? go ahead, done that well, and as i said before, you've got, you know, multiple dimensions to this one is the geopolitical, obviously, the commercial, the, you know, the market that this is a very important driver of, of these policies. and you've got a market in europe, 1st of all, where for 3540 years you've had, you know, broader and deeper austerity imposed on workers and even the middle class or what remains from it. an energy cause soaring before this crisis. so,

so cold and anticipating that there would be this natural gas supply through north north stream to now that dries up, what you're going to do is substitute something like, because you may be looking at 2530 percent of germany's energy going by, by in the middle of these are still bodies because rushes, it's going to cut him off for acts. well, if that happens, you're going to make it up. was more expensive to produce tract gas from the u. s. the that have to ship across the atlantic there, who's going to pay for it? no one in, in europe could they can of their choosing now between food and heat. and so you're going to jack up the baby double the price of it. again, you may see some re rebellions even revolutions in europe over this. well, it's got back to toronto, i mean, they, the issue of the price of grain has been brought up here too. i mean, if you and it's, it's one of them, it for a lot of people to really mundane, but the price of grain. i can tell you about social, on stability,

around the world, not just in europe here. but let's, let's stay with the what the, the gambit is here. it seems to me that the way events are being played out right now. is that again, what they, they want to keep russia out of europe? well, i think that said europe's expense. i mean, if you're it becomes very stagnant, it's not very dynamic. it's supposed to get on board with the washington's anti china crusade, which, you know, a lot of people in the us, particularly wall street, are not particularly interested in a lot of people who made money in china. very few of those wall street people that made money in russia. okay. so i think again, this is kind of a fever dream here, but it's, it's, it's certainly the united states demonstrating it. so hold, it's had gemini over its allies and i don't see that it goes anywhere parts deposit positive and certainly trying to knock rush out. will russia, obviously, is everyone's worried about will turn east, go ahead in toronto. well, i mean,

the russian turning east and i think this must come into the calculus at the beginning of the operation because it's clear putting, understand what, how and when europe will react and they will, but it will perhaps, in a few months we'll see europe reversing. because they're going to feel the pain and the, the green revolution in europe is truly and they're threat now because the, this idea of having the conversion to electric cars has been pushed in a much faster way than anybody ever expected with the european rules. banning therm, fuel power, the engines by 2030 or 2035. i forgot the actual date, but it's ridiculous. so they want to bring an electric car who's going to produce all this electricity. certainly not wind farms or solar panels. you need that

whole pipe dream work on natural gas that masked the fact that these sources were insufficient. and then they went along and shut down nuclear reactors, germany in ports, nuclear energy from france. because france still has the sense to keep its nuclear reactors going. china is building hundreds of new reactors. so and of the new type they, they're much smaller, much more efficient and much cleaner. and perhaps that's the only solution if, if you are one to survive but you don't have the time. luckily i think for europeans, i've actually one of the 1st things i did when at the beginning of this military operation was check the weather forecast for europe, european capitals for the next 2 weeks. it's going to be some warm and as

a spring comes, because i think her, it had, they had a toronto weather minus 10 minus 15 and so on the a the, they're putting would have had an extra card to play. it was a yeah, i mean, when i think of germany at the sun, this is what in wind isn't when i think of when i think of germany, i think of good cars in beer. i don, let me go to you. i were all told, this is in the name of democracy, one of the problems i have a problem. one of the things i have with this issue here is that ukraine had a democracy in 2014, but the west over through they a democratically elected governments. i mean, what is this democracy thing if they, over through a government go ahead. one of the say is this really useful for people to do if you go to wikipedia as bad as it is as bad as it is? look at the 2010 a ukrainian election. there's a map there that shows you the, the route relative support for young cove itch. and to miss shanker were the to the 2 final round candidates and to verify that election by the way, there's also

a chart if it's still up at the c. i. 8 isn't take them. of like 7 or 8 exit polls from all over the world that confirmed that you know, that he won the election. then you can see that, you know, everything, it's and blow in essence on that map, you're going to have strong support for what's going on with russia right now. cuz those are the people that elected him and where it's read, you're going to have support for what's going on in kia because they voted against of the candidate the of the party of regions, piano cove edge. and that is not by the way entirely of with the school because the co was illegal, the governments that have flown float from it or illegal they've banished the party, is that existed for about a 3rd to a half of the population at politicians in jail. this is the broadest and they've got nazi actual, you know, people call neo nazis. these are not me are not,

he's are old school. they still have the same uniforms and shields. and same hero that they had in the 1940s when they welcome the germans and showed them where the jews and russians were to kill. and so, you know, just on the china question very quickly, or if this plays out the way it appears to and china keeping you know, and even bouts. but, you know, supporting russia against us sanctions like has happens was 2014 in one way or another. you could be looking at some kind of sanctions war with china, but with the united states, which they really can't do. i mean, at the end of that day, we end up with china's 1000000000 of and a half people have to absorb another 5 or 10000000 cars. computers and tv sets every year. and we and absorb another couple 100000 lawyers, accountants and b. s artists because that's what we export. well, you know, as well i, well, i least, you know, down in the, in the arms export business is always good. okay. i mean there are 2 types of

country in the world. people, countries that are sanctioned by the u. s. and countries by american arms. that's the only 2 differences. there are a gentlemen that's all the time we have here. many thanks my gets an earthling and in toronto and thanks. so our viewers for watching us here are t see you next time. remember rostock rules? ah long went out. so thing wrong. when old fools just don't hold any rules yet to see how the theme because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will

decline, we choose to look for common ground. ah rushes defense minister orders safe exits, routes for ukrainian soldiers willing to surrender. as a military operation unfolds, lost after the russian president ordered a special operation, saying the aim is to defend the people of the don boss from aggression by the ukrainian military. but he may putin as stressed. russia has no plans for occupation. give codes diplomatic relations with russia and urges the west to build an unsafe routine coalition, while the u. s. on his eyes slum the cremins operation as a barbaric at sack and vow the harshest of.