put, and so he's willing to do just that in minutes. is it possible the end is theoretically inside? already actually the russia side has older reasons to believe that zalinski is his political line is in line with natal. therefore, he knows that he is receiving orders and also instructions from his nature partners, especially from washington. therefore, engaging, you know, talk with southern sky, although it's very important. however, at the same time, you also need to talk with the people or the politicians or the conscious behind certain sky, right? if we check the court on your, the timeline of the events, you will realize that every decision zelinski has taken in the past few years were against the interests of the ukrainian people. and at the same time, it was threatening dispositions were turning the national secrets. therefore, put in can engage in negotiations. of course we didn't ski, however, most importantly is to engage in negotiations with the united states because all

these circus, the war situation in ukraine is a direct result of years who mongering and, and increasing the pensions in ukraine in your korean by the united states. in order to insert to russia, and in order to disconnect russia from it's your asians peer of influence. because when you disconnect russia from your pain, that means russia has become only an issue of power and not to your issue. and this is well described by b, jim skeen. you spoke to graham just for me. i'm sorry i to apologize. i just don't have enough time for that kind of conversation, but i'm going to ask you some questions. what i've still got you here. i do apologize, i, president putin is addressed ukrainian soldiers, cutting ukrainian soldiers, putin telling them to take control of the country, essentially ask them to engage in a military coup. how do you think that's going to be viewed on the global stage? actually putting is trying to influence the public opinion in ukraine and by

calling to go against their own government. i don't think it will be it will be successful. however, putting can use other technique that the ukrainians are adopting now, which is army the civilians. and when you arm the civilians, that means dest elements, this individuals have lost the character of civilians, and when you target them, they are military targets, right? but what the west is trying to do a truism in ski it, they are copying the strategy, the media strategy of the white elements which is carrying arms in the residential areas and by civilians. and when you receive a blow, or you receive a bomb or a target from the russian army you will make from it's a big international candle and you will use it in all the media office in order to increase the pressure on shiny order to bring the humanitarian aspect into the surface, right? but we all know that the cord off, the issue is geopolitical and it's not to manage area. and the sooner the western

partners of ukraine realize that the, the multiple, our system is going to be revived again. the better for the, for the work, for the better for the global piece, because the insistence of refusing to accept russia and china in the international community, it will only increase attention between all science. so diplomacy should prevail between decides but the russian, sorry, there were, some officials should understand that the days of colonialism is over and they have to accept the growing powers, such as russia, china and iran, in the global scene. the alternatives for this is only war, and i think nobody has an interest in engaging in a dyadic tour now in eastern europe that could split into western europe, which means world war t and tens of millions of people may die. so i hope sooner the lesson officials understand this, the better for international peace. well let's,

let's hope cool ahead prevail of all cal massey and appreciate your opinions there . independent political analysts. thank you. thanks for joining us. we are back in just about ah ah ah, ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. moscow repeatedly warned. it would not tolerate ukraine being used by nato to threaten russia's national security. those warnings were not taken seriously, even dismissed out of hand. what we are witnessing is the cuban missile crisis in reversed and this could have easily been avoided. i

cross sucking events in ukraine. i'm joined by my guests. alexander bruno in toronto. he's an analyst at golf state analytics and in osland we have down to bar . he's an anti war activist and a radio show host or a gentleman cross sock rules, and the fact that means he can jump in any time you want. i always appreciate it. i'll sandra, let me go to you 1st in toronto. we have big our changes. so when i woke up this morning and started reading the news in my heart, sunk for everybody involved, this could have been very much avoided. i all through the day, thinking about our, our, our recording here. i was thinking of the munich conference in 2017, when po didn't warned nato about its expansion about it's the stabilizing effect in pan european security. and here we are today,

go back to december 17th of last year, asking nato, asking the united states to reconcile or the architecture for european security. because it was because it would be had become inherently unstable and against russia's interest. and here we are today, and i like i just said, no one is a winner. your thoughts on this day go ahead in toronto. yes, it was shocking for me. i for me, it was evening. and i opened the news and i saw what was happening. and while i was hoping until the last moment, in fact, i was surprised, but at the same time, not surprised. i wrote a piece that titled it's a trap. and i think perhaps the calculation in the kremlin was, will take the trap because the alternative is worse, which means this would have ukraine live inevitably fall into those lap.

and then the situation would have been worse. i think it has played out as a cuban missile crisis in reverse. in fact, this is exactly the same situation. if we, if you don't take out the missiles, we will. and that's what i've put in seems to have done overnight. i'm not sure what the situation is like later how the things are progressing. what i've seen the focus. busy has been on military bases for the time being but it's a shock and unfortunately, i think russia will pay, will be made to pay a high price as, and i think europe will pay a huge price as well. it's a, it's everyone's shooting on the wrong feet. here and they could have been completely avoided not once, but several times or 8 years to change,

to consider even open to the idea of changing the architecture, which is completely it's not even useless. it's completely inappropriate. because the nato was designed to protect europe from soviet russia. soviet union, the soviet union has long finished. it's no longer in existence. so nato should have been. the architecture should have been changed already in 1992. this is already, we are 30 years too late. don, you know, the, you know, and now is this morning when i was watching events on hold and checking around various news outlets trying to get my head around what was going on. the thought entered my head that the post cold war era is finally over. we're in the new epa right now. i don't know what to call it, but the, the, the europe, the pannier a p in security architecture came into existence. after the end of the soviet union,

at the end of the cold war, now it's, it's completely collapsed because it is security is indivisible. if one country is threatened all are, and this is the situation that we've come to know. and ukraine is paying a very heavy price for not making a choice. we had the men's got accords wanting to, it was a way out. there was a guarantor, russia, france, germany, france, and germany did nothing. they sat on their hands for 8 years. and they were supposed to be guarantors to this. they did not push kev to commit to itself. and this is where we are starting monday with the, with russia, recognizing the don as republics. and now what we have now disarming ukraine, the name of this program, don, your thoughts and you have a real complex puzzle of, you know, different pieces interacting, the geopolitical considerations of these,

you know, economic political blocks are the one that, you know is more or less comprised a much of the world up until recently, the hagaman really are the rising, eurasian global competitors, how it's viewed in washington anyway, the in other words, eurasia, on building and standing on its own and charting at its own future, which is a threat, of course, to those who have designs on the future of eurasia for themselves. the goal of the united states looking at russia in particular of what china tube hasn't changed really from the goal of france in the 19th century and of germany in the 20th century. they see seberio, in essence, asian, russia, and china as the africa of the 21st century, where they're going to go in and capture all the mineral wealth,

rather than of dragging laborer, thus slaves off, you have highly skilled a technical workers. they want to extract value from them working from megan for the corporations in the west, at the direction of people in the west. and the foreign policy in the united states in the ear was directed towards that. you cannot really have any other interpretation for the placements of military forces along russia's borders from the baltics to the korean peninsula, including those things that would negate roches ability to respond in the event of an attack. this is a 1st strike contraption that's been installed around russia. oh, great. oh no, john don, not what we're told over and over again. nato is a defensive ally, and it's a defensive alliance. you know, it's delta burge, he has that on speed dial. it's all he can say here. i mean, this is what we keep hearing and speaking of now to let nato, let me quote here. nato claims that it is made every effort to pursue diplomacy and

dialogue with russia and has repeatedly invited it for talks in the nato, russia council. let me go back to toronto, how do you respond to that? you know, we've been asking for talk, but yeah, that's all it is, is talks. that's what so frustrating when every opportunity is put on the table for a negotiated resolution to this, that was always pushed off the table. this is what so infuriating. go ahead and toronto, indeed. and in fact, it seemed to me that your opinions remembered not to mention nato. remember, the men's chords only, maybe a couple of hours after the, after the attacks began. that's when all of a sudden they started calling out men's and, and the rushes failure to abide by those agreements. so it's, it's a one way situation. but also natal has become stifling because it prevents the

various countries which are already bound by rules. for example, in germany, france, italy have to abide by the e u rules and then there's the nato once and the individual foreign policy and the pursuit of individual interests is completely cancelled out. there is france, italy, germany has 0 interest in going along with the nato attitude, one loses they all lose, lose gas. and then there are the other problems that i found out. of course, we will probably go up and my favorite pasta will cost a lot more because of this. so the, i can't believe the nato has actually interfered with the individual interests of the various powers that it represents. it's become utterly useless. not to mention

it. i don't have words, in fact it's re angering i've i've, i've never quite understood that it's point any more after 1992 door so fact was dismantled. it should have been dismantled. fair and square. then. yeah, i mean we are, we hear this a lot from earth. it, everything must have reciprocity, but the warsaw pact collapse, but nato didn't. so where is the reciprocity there? i don't, i don't cedar link don, let me quote, it will quote the, my ursula underline of the e u. m. we condemn this barbaric attack and the cynical arguments used to justify it. how do you respond to that? after all of this shuttle diplomacy that we had for actually, you know, 6 weeks, 2 months before prior to these events, i find it very hard to take that seriously. go had done well start with the previous architecture for security in europe. you have

a germany divided in 4 parts, mostly that a concession by the way, a, by the soviet union, because the soviet union really defeated germany. and perhaps you could make a case also that the u. s. in the u. k. had a hand in it, france collaborated with germany. they should have divided france also, to be honest. but you had this division and you had buffer countries, in essence, the warsaw pact, countries for all of the ideological stuff that he side used against it. there, there were indigenous communist parties or indigenous capitalists parties. there was like, well this is close to us. we don't want to be invaded from here. again. let us have paul. one is, is the buffer czechoslovakia is a buffer romania, bulgaria, et cetera. that was the agreement and western europe was handed to the united states. in essence, the united states occupied and still occupies that the soviet union withdrew from

germany on an agreement. that's now been rat, 4 or 5 different people who were involved have confirmed it with the documents that the agreement was there would not be any further movement of nato beyond the elm. and yet, there has been, after the collapse of the soviet union, the alleged res, on for the creation of nato. it moved all the way to the borders of russia. how else can you interpret that? ok, gentlemen, we will interpreted or we're going to go to a hard break here and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on what's happening in ukraine. say, with our tea. ah, ah, join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. and i'll be speaking to guess on the world politics sport. business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then.

ah, food. welcome back to across stock where all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing events in ukraine. i okay gentlemen, i want to talk about 2 related topics here. first of all, let's talk about energy. let's talk about the nord stream to and of course the gambit to, in my opinion, this is all about trying to neutralize russia from europe to, for the west. to focus his tensions on china, which i think is a stupid fever dream, but i think it's in the cards here. first of all, i let it go to toronto, let's talk about energy. let's look at the history of nord stream to what was its

origins up. i remember germany requested russia to build a 2nd pipeline. it was a german idea, and the russians built it at a very hefty some. okay, of course, when you look at western media, particularly american media, they talk about it is have, it's an american pipeline, you know, i don't know why joe biden, or donald trump or anyone else in any american administration feels they have ownership of something that they don't own, but that's exactly how they talk about it in media. so europe now is experiencing a severe energy crunch and there is a pipeline that could be full of gas, but they don't want to fill it up because somehow this benefits rush. it actually benefits consumers and producers, but i don't want to get too technical here. i was sandra. i mean, you know, it's almost out to the point of absurd, the way they're talking about energy because it's the u. s. that wants to capture the european market at a huge premium. it's a good power play for the americans and for their,

their control over europe as we will talk about later. say, look to china, m, i over the target. go ahead. no, peter, i think this is exactly right. in fact, i think ultimately the reason for the lack of understanding from the west and particularly from the united states is north stream to the north stream to stood in the way of american l. n. g. ship delivered by ship, you know, very expand, expensive and very dangerous because the u. s. has been increasing its production of l n g. it needs a market. so the nor string to was a huge obstacle. the other problem, of course, is that of europe's actually, the world's on making this, the climate change story has increased to such an extent, making unreasonable and, you know,

dream like solar and wind energy as if, you know, there's enough space for all that. the only solution in europe, germany shut down, it's nuclear reactors. there's perfectly cheaper many cheaper sources available. but no, they, in the name of this literally ideology they, they need natural gas to fuel the. the green revolution is made the natural gas much more important, and they go and shoot their own foot by interfering with making it now impossible. perhaps in a couple of months we may have some talks again to reopen, but certainly the target i think for this entire thing was nor string to from the beginning. yeah, let's go back to don don. i think that's absolute. i mean, i think that's one of the most important layers here. i mean, essentially would, and energy is the means to, to, to do this is to, you know,

what they want to do is they want to shut russia out of europe. ok. that has been the entire of thinking since the end of the cold war is that quote unquote, russia, the soviet union is defeated. now we push it out of europe. american hegemony maintained. and germany was always the wild card there because it's the power house of europe. it's the economic powerhouse of europe. and you have to make sure the germans cannot make amends. make a work with the russians. this is what the atlantis is, hate the most, and they're winning their winning right now. and the 2nd caveat that i, how here china, how does this play into it? go ahead, don. that, well, as i said before, you've got multiple dimensions to this. one is the geopolitical, obviously, the commercial, the, you know, the mercantile, this is a very, you know, important driver of these policies. and you've got a market in europe 1st of all, or where for 3540 years you've had, you know, broader and deeper austerity imposed on workers and even the middle class or what

remains of it on energy cos, soaring before this crisis. so, so cold and anticipating that there would be this natural gas supply through north north stream to now that dries up, what you're going to do is substitute something like cars. you may be looking at 2530 percent of germany's energy going by by in the middle with these are still with these cars. rushes is going to cut him off perhaps. well, if that happens, you're going to make it up with more expensive to produce tract gas from the u. s. that you then have to ship across the atlantic there, who's going to pay for it? no one in any in europe can they can of, if they're choosing now between food and eat. and so you're going to jack up the baby double the price of it. again, you may see some re rebellions even revolutions in europe over this quote. it's got back to toronto, i mean the, the issue of, of the price of grain has been brought up here to, i mean, if you and it's,

it's one of them. if you put a lot of people to really mundane, but the price of grain, i can tell you about social on stability around the world, not just in europe here, but little it stay with the with the gambit is here. and it seems to me that the way events are being played out right now, is that again, right, they, they want to keep russia out of europe. well, i think that said europe's expense. i mean, if you're, it becomes very stagnant. it's not very dynamic. it's supposed to get on board with the washington's anti china crusade, which, you know, a lot of people in the us, particularly wall street, particularly interested a lot of people who made money in china. very few of those wall street people have made money in russia. ok, so i think again, this is kind of a fever dream here, but it's, it's, it's certainly the united states demonstrating it. so hold, it's had gemini over its allies and i don't see that it goes anywhere, pallets deposit positive and certainly trying to knock rush out. will russia,

obviously, is everyone's worried about will turn east, go ahead in toronto. well, i mean, the russian turning east and i think this must come into the calculus at the beginning of the operation because it's clear putting understand what, how and when europe will react and they will, but it'll perhaps, in a few months we'll see europe reversing because they're going to feel the pain and the, the green revolution in europe is truly and they're threat now because the, this idea of having the conversion to electric cars has been pushed in a much faster way than anybody ever expected with the european rules. banning therm, fuel power, the engines by 2030 or 2035. i forgot the actual date,

but it's ridiculous. so they want to bring an electric car who's going to produce all this electricity. certainly not wind farms or solar panels. you need that whole pipe dream work on natural gas that masked the fact that these sources were insufficient. and then they went along and shut down nuclear reactors, germany in ports, nuclear energy from france. because france still has the sense to keep its nuclear reactors going. china is building hundreds of new reactors. so and of the new type they, they're much smaller, much more efficient and much cleaner. and perhaps that's the only solution if, if you are once a survive, but you don't have the time. luckily i think for europeans, i've actually one of the 1st things i did when at the beginning of this military operation was check the weather forecast for europe,

european capitals for the next 2 weeks. it's going to be some warm and as a sprinkler because i think her had, they had a toronto weather minus 10 minus 15 and so on. the a hunky they're putting would have had an extra card to play this a. yeah. i mean, when i think of germany at the sun, this is what in wind isn't when i think of when i think of germany, i think of good cars in beer. i don, let me go to you. i were all told, this is in the name of democracy, one of the problems i have a problem. one of the things i have with this issue here is that ukraine had a democracy in 2014, but the west over through they a democratically elected governments. i mean, what is this democracy thing if they, over through a government go ahead. one of the say is that it's really useful for people to do if you go to wikipedia as bad as it is as bad as it is. look at the 2010 a ukrainian election. there's a map there that shows you the,

the route relative support for young cove rich and doug to mishenko were the, to the 2 final round candidates. and to verify that election, by the way, there's also a chart if it's still up of the c, i 8 isn't take it down of like 7 or 8 exit polls from all over the world that confirmed that you know, that he won the election. then you can see that, you know, everything, it's and blow in essence on that map, you're going to have strong support for what's going on with russia right now. cuz those are the people that elected him and where it's read, you're going to have support for what's going on in kiev because they voted against of the candidate the of the party of regions, piano cove edge. and that is not by the way entirely of with the school because the co was illegal, the governments that have flown flowed from it or illegal they've banished the party. is that existed from about a 3rd to

a half of the population at politicians in jail. this is the broadest and they've got nazi actual, you know, people call neo nazis. these are not me are not, he's are old school. they still have the same uniforms and shields. and same hero that they had in the 1940s when they welcome the germans and showed them where the jews and russians were to kill. and so, you know, just on the china question very quickly, or if this plays out the way it appears to, and china keeping you know, as an even bouts. but, you know, supporting russia against us sanctions like has happens was 2014 in one way or another. you could be looking at some kind of sanctions war with china with, with the united states, which they really can't do. i mean, at the end of that day, we end up with china's 1000000000 of and a half people have to absorb another 5 or 10000000 cars. computers and t, v sets every year. and we and absorb another couple 100000 lawyers,

accountants and b. s artists because that's what we export. well yeah, well i, well that i least, you know, down in the, in the arms export business is always good. ok. i mean there, there are 2 types of country in the world. people, countries that are sanctioned by the u. s. and countries by american arms. that's the only 2 differences. there are a gentlemen that's all the time we have here. many thanks my guest in our thing and in toronto, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. larkey, see you next time. remember rostock rules. awe long went out. so think wrong when old fools just don't want you to see how this thing becomes the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will

decline, we choose to look for common ground. ah, headlines are naughty international. the russian president vladimir putin urges ukraine soldiers to take power in the country and protect civilian lives. as western powers, condemn what they call an old out invasion officials in the den. yes, republic claim a ukrainian army shelling has hit a local school. we understand 2 teachers were killed, but the no children were there at the time. she was in defense ministry accuses ukraine's a military of committing wall crime by placing the rocket launchers in densely populated residential areas. i appeal to ukrainian citizen last year. your nationalist leadership uses the same methods as terrorist, so they want to use you as human shields.