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ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stopper. all things are considered, i'm funeral about, we're told russia a special military operation in ukraine is to demilitarize and di not divide the country. negotiations are likely to start, so what kind of ukraine can we expect after the special military operation is come to an end? ah, discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guess. patrick hennington in plymouth is the editor and boundary 21st century. wired dot com. and in budapest we

have george sally. he is a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals are generally crossed up rules and effect . that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i would appreciate it. i was going to patrick 1st year that are going to look at the reasons why a putin decided on this special military operation in ukraine. the 2 issues that he focus most on only on actually is demilitarization and the not the cation. now the 1st one seems quite obvious that the, the russians don't want to have offensive weaponry with the backing of nato pointed in russia, but also discussed this di notification because i have seen no talk about it in western media. first, demilitarization neat nuts, vacation. go ahead, patrick, you're in and out. we can't leave out. also the humanitarian aspect of it. and securing done yes. and again, which they recognize. but to the point of demilitarization, you have to look at this and frame it properly. this is

a proxy war. this is russia versus nato, and nato states are using ukraine as a proxy. they're pumping weapons and we've seen this before. i personally witnessed this in syria myself on the ground, so i know exactly what happens when that takes place. so it's a proxy war, and the weapon shipments are being amped up right now. germany is also going to be sending lethal aid. there's other countries as well, that was true, i believe as well. so i mean, we know how that's going to end up over time. if this is a protracted, a fair so, but the d notification element is really important because that is a completely omitted from the western narrative. and it has been for a long time, the west, always back radicals. they back radicals in the middle east. they back radicals in ukraine, unfortunately from world war 2 to the present. and this is a very complex political analysis that no one will ever undertake in them in the

mainstream media, nor will they ever mentioned it. no politician will ever mention it as well in the united states knew exactly where the fault lines were and they aggravated those time and time again in order to manipulate the political situation in ukraine and most notably when victoria newland and her team were over there during the obama ministration, this is when it really inflamed and they really went for the kill as it were in terms of backing out of violence to in 2014. and at that point, you know, ukraine seems to be a liberal democracy because a liberal democracy means that you can have people from different ethnic groups and they have equal representation under the law. so at that point, you could argue that, you know, from the 2014 my don to back to by the united states and the u as well. and nato member states. then ukraine becomes a failed state. at that point, when you deploy the military,

basically to attempt to ethnically cleanse or to put down a rebellion based on race or ethnic origin at that point. and then you lose control of parts of your country for similar reasons. politically, like in the crimea, you're a failed state tactically at that point, and it's only a matter of time before you continue to come apart at the seams domestically or your neighbors will help in that process as well. this is not exclusive to ukraine and russia in this sense, this is really all over the world throughout history. so, or at least the history of the post was fallen nation state era. so i don't see this as a surprise, but there's no context to background to coo, none of it. and the fact that the makes records were completely sabotaged from us for 78 years is never mentioned, no context, no background, no history, nothing. all you get is this is flatter and he's the next hitler, and it's,

this is the sudetenland. that's all you get right now in the western media and by politicians. and it's just incredibly, a arrogant and incredibly manipulative. and i would say, really shameful. have the treatment, this is getting especially from western politicians who are grand standing right now, pointing the finger wagging the finger and the media that will not allow any, any context. george i well patrick said a lot there you want to add to it, go ahead. you always get the short end of this thing is i go to you 2nd, go ahead. i think a excellent what i would add to what actually said is that because the, essentially, the obama team is now in power. this may have accelerated for the russian thinking, because, you know, after all,

these other people who engineers that, who in my down. and so when they came to power, they immediately began to talk about the ukraine in georgia and the door to nato being open. and given also the, the arms that were boring into your grade. so from the russians perspective, they will now very concerned that ukraine may try to settle the issues once and for all in the southeast by a croatian operation, storm time, offensive, be a lightning strike. and try to drive out the the people that don't ask them much is a 995. that something like that might have been in the works. and i think because the, this, both my ukraine government has actually been in cahoots with the

democrats. i mean, remember, they got themselves involved in the 2016 election by the backing of hillary clinton and they got themselves involved in the 2020 election, you know, in the way with the home to buy them all. busy the what we knew about the original thing and then you know, we have the qu again, you know, you brainstorm involved in the trash. so this next is of because they both my down here and the return of the sort of essentially, the obama bite and team may have triggered the russians thinking we need to act now because you know, 23 is it may well be too late. and i think that, you know, in terms of your, your question, one of the russians, what russians will not tolerate immediately they will not tolerate, essentially an end to russia on the borders. i mean this,

this is one of this all say, is just being created as a kind of nature proxy on to the cheese and it's driven by nothing else but animals toward russia. you know, patrick, if we, if we look at ukraine, particularly since the end of the soviet union, 2014 they, we had this kind of neo nazi element that mean those that know the story is kind of deletion. i'm very, a big on mindset. but it was a minority experience and then the, my don amplified. it actually replied, this deletion the mindset, replace what was there before. and i think that that, that for me is one of the great disappointments of coverage of, of ukraine in the media. because you had a before you had a why, very, very wide variety of opinions about politics. we had the party regions, the biggest part of the country was banned. one of the largest parties in the

country was a communist, but it was bad. so when, when they did was they recombine where they go, this course in participation. and of course people in the don bass were excluded, they were disenfranchised. actually walk aid and the government a $15000.00 of them. again, not much coverage in the media. yeah, and i watched, you know when you watch the un general assembly addressed by the cranium ambassador to the un. i mean it's just completely twisted in actual, outright lies being told on the floor of the un. we see this from western officials . so everything you said is important, i would argue as well that i think the radical neo nazi element still is a minority. but it's, it's a very, it's a very powerful minority. and being able to have sort of st politics as it were. being able to be in force politics on the street standing outside of the apartments, right? politicians and to bend all of this happened. and then the legalized discrimination

of certain people, ethnic groups, outlawing the russian language. you know, in terms of a democracy, you know, ukraine, you can't really call it or compare it to a western liberal democracy by any stretch of the imagination. so also they have a wild corruption problem and by the way, the united states politicians, some of them did very well out of that corrupt atmosphere, including the current president joe biden. and his son hunter made an absolute fortune and took advantage of that corruption. and it's just unbelievable that's not even allowed to be spoken of in the western media and in political circles. so you can see this whole conversation is completely tilted in one direction. and i don't think that i don't think you're going to information landscapes in the west and in russia are so different. and this is no, it's not surprised why the 2 sides will not be able to understand each other in terms of the public. maybe some politicians understand, but i will tell you,

even members of congress in the senate are completely clueless about geography, about history, even about what happened in february of 2014. they have no idea because they get their history from cnn, from m s m, b c from the new york times from people like friedman and the sort of columnist. so you the congress, that this is very dangerous because you're not going to be able to come to any kind of really sober negotiation position because we're gas lead even at the highest levels of us all political establishment and britain as well. so it's, this is a very, in that sense, it's very, very dangerous. the media plays and absolutely central role and making sure that this chaos is going to continue because they will not, will not speak or publish or report the truth of what's really happening on the ground and put it into context. as i said before, you know, charge all this was quite predictable, sadly. and practically,

all you have to do is go back to 2007 at the munich security conference in famous speech there. i mean, again, those of us have been watching what's been going on and you know about these things . but if you get a cursory review of western media that's exhibit never happen. but if you go back and read that speech, you can understand what's happening today or well, this is the same. so ever since a, the, the cold war ended, the russians have had the better arguments. i've said, oh, you know, you, you invaded iraq. that was a legal, you violate the un charter, you violated the un security council resolution, a violation of the one job that you even violated and your job and, you know, you know, julian assigned you're in prison. somebody who believes in freedom of speech is providing information about war and excellent arguments. and they just simply say, well ok, you know, who can we have the guy we have that. so, you know,

you can make your good argument, and i think this is what suddenly has happened is that russia has taken a leave out of the united states and they've all been argue anymore. you know, you can make all your legalistic arguments about international law. the un java, we're just going to do what's in our national and i want you to hold that thought and i want you to finish that. we go back a break. so i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break and that's our brick building. oh, ah .

hello, this is driven by dream shaped bankers, and those with there's sinks. we dare to ask a welcome at the cross that we're all things are considered. i'm pete a little. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real ah

again, go back to georgia in budapest, georgia, unfortunately, and interrupt you to go to a break. you were making a fabulous point about some kind of, i would say legal nile is of go right ahead. well, that's right. i mean, russia really have to get out of the prison that it was actually getting itself locked into, you know, with essentially nato's expansion into, obviously that your but then into the course of the, to the far east. and this is an ongoing thing was never going to stop. and again, it would make well that the russians would make all these points as i'm saying, oh yeah, but you promise the garbage all, not one inch and, and the, you know, we, we, you know, you talk about the rules based order, but you know, my international assign excellent arguments on the internet and nobody can, because you don't have to do for russia to reemerge, is

a great bow to bring to an end, the imprisonment that nato planned for it. it had to do something drastic. it was painful. and, you know, yeah, because pain involved, but russia now made his mark on the well, then russia has now bush nature out of it, it's kona and you know, the nature of ours, they can go to the united nations and they can make all those features about the, you know, you violate of the un charter. this is international law. you are, you know, frankly small countries, us all great speeches, all the speeches, the russians would be making 30 years, but something you can do about it. and i think that's why it, you know, the western power a so grieved that they are now suddenly the position of the russians have been lost . 30. yes. well, it's kind of interesting. george is the, you always hear this. are you, the russians only understand force? well, they don't understand force now, isn't it?

and of course, every $1.00 to $3.00 days later it's, you know, sanction every, i was so much courage out there. so it's really embarrassing. ok, it shows that nato is a paper tiger, really? that's all it is. ok. i mean, it was going to be sending out. no, they don't. doesn't have any arms. member state countries do. they don't, doesn't have anything. that's a lot of paper clips. ok. patrick were former president to me dream and bit of came out on the last new cycle. i think it's something really quite remarkable, and it's not again, not getting any kind of traction. and i'm quoting from the r t website for final review of russia's relations with the west. now possible. i think that's really fundamentally very important. and it's kind of details on what georgia to say is it, you know, you, you want everyone to play in your organizations and play by your rules. and it always works to your disadvantage. so why play in these organizations? i am set this for a very long time, is a very radical position, even among some russians. ok. but i mean, if you're always going to be

a 2nd class citizen in someone else's organization about their values, whatever they are, what you have never been able to figure out. ok. it's a time for a clean break. i think i'm, i, i don't like how we got here. i'm very distressed by what's going on right now. but there are certain, there seems to be a certain inevitability. if russia wants to maintain some sovereign destiny, go ahead. this is a difficult part in this kind of the paradox of the kind of our world order, is that, you know, it has been a unipolar world order with united states. clearly the most powerful country militarily, economically and politically. so especially since the end of the cold war, the fall of the iron curtain. so, but the irony is weaker countries, even the 2nd tier below that, russia, or even china and in the sense still work through the multi lateral institutions like the u. n. because they have no other option,

you have to work to gain consensus with other countries. and russia's always a very diligent about working through these organizations they, they have been you can hear the rhetoric from survey lever off to very normative behavior. rushes very predictable in that sense. there's no secrets, they're very clear about what their intentions are and so forth. but that doesn't, that set of rules doesn't apply, obviously, to the u. s. and its allies, especially when they're unilateral action is taken by the u. s. and its allies just basically barrel and behind them, and whether it's through nato or with britain in iraq or, and things like that. so that's that, that's the problem is. so russians really believe in their diplomats are very good and they, but i do believe they believe in these institutions. but will these institutions love them back if they play by the rules and will international law be held and international law? let's face it, it's a relative concept,

especially for the united states. it only believes in international law, so long as it's convenient or to whatever ends it's pursuing. the dumbass is a perfect example. you know, if you go by the, the letter of the un charter and they have fulfilled most of the requirements for declaring independence. and it's not against international law for russia to recognize them or members of russian parliament to vote to recognize them. they and the west made a huge blunder they sanctioned, they sanctioned russia and russian parliamentarians and everybody else. just for recognizing don yes can lugens. that's not a breach of international law. they're allowed to recognize who they like. but what's the real question is do they qualify for statehood as it were, or at least some independent tests? and they absolutely do. especially if you look at what's happened over the last 8 years, that's completely been some of the people that dumbass have been cancelled by the

west. 4000000 people have been cancelled. they don't exist, they've been de platforms, they're de humanized. they don't exist. and i think that's a big argument ambassador and benz years trying to make on the for the un in recent days. so are we going to get past this situation? it's very, very difficult in our churches, much is rushes line at the moment due to its operations and i would say the larger picture as we take a step back, is that the post cold war security architecture collapse. it collapse. and this is what we get from it. ok? it was ill conceived, it was a fully implemented and it had only select members of the international community. you know what i mean by that? their security is at stake. end. no, no, no one else's. and i think this, we, so what we the result of what we see right now in ukraine is the collapse of

a system that the west for forced upon the rest of the world and its collapse. and we are in new york. i don't know what to call you, and i've talked about this before, but we're in a new era, right? go ahead. we are in a new era and the rumble with the see and hear. this is the rubble of nature infrastructure. and now the russians have also made clear that if you now respond by building up your nato infrastructure of all those in the baltic states, romania, we're going to read that as well. we're just not going to tolerate you building up essentially a neighborhood as a launching pad for an invasion. good. as we speak right now. what is right, you have to lose that in doing that. nothing. there's absolutely nothing. so that's exactly the worst response was disastrous response to the west make go to the

larger point. there's a question that not only does the west enjoy, you know, most of the military, i mean we can see, enjoys in the oversee, can all make and financial. i'm going to talk about what we're going to throw russian russian. well, it's not a very good system when i, you know, one group of countries can simply throw other countries a system which prevents them from making a living. and i think the alternatives this way, which obviously in preparation we don't know how extensive they are, but you know, they were to be quite expensive. i think other countries will be very happy to use . we've seen how the united states has used economic power again in violation of all of the united states. because resolutions using, you know, how to go small a week of countries to comply with its political desires. so russia is, for all the talk of it on russia's isolated russia, as i say,

russia isolated as far as the west is far as much of the rest of the world. is them? some thing, 1st of all, russia has reasonable security interest that they think it's absolute madness when they try to surround it in the way rush was bound to respond. well, they also say this is very good. a global financial economic system is being created that gives us a much more leverage than we have, which is why india did not condemn or russia. so we now have, you know, in the united nations. but in china, the 2 most populous countries in the, well, they did not condemn russia in countries in latin america, but of sympathetic to russia. many countries of the world, but a sympathetic because they got the short end of the se during the, the, the post cold war era of western dominance. in speaking of swiss, patrick, it's very interesting. more they want, the more they fiddle with swift,

the more they fiddle with the dominance of the u. s. dollar. this is say, self inflicted wounds because once you have an alternative system in georgia is absolutely right. i've heard various things coming out of china there. 50 percent of 90 percent prepare. i've heard why the different it does in fact exist. and now there's a reason for people to be interested into it because it's a swift is going to be a politicized organization. and the dollar is going to be politicize. people walk away from it, it's a headache because the most powerful thing i guess you can do right now is sanction somebody when you do when there's a favorite sanction people find in the alternative here. and as far as you know, this with system and during rush out of it, the biggest, the biggest losers will be europe. ok. and they all the victory. all right, now and i'm breastfeeding industry still needs energy. ok, if you can't pay the bill, you're not going to get it back. if you listen to us on in right now, it's amazing on all the networks are saying, you know,

we need to cut off europe from russian gas and oil like that. so we need to stick it to the, to the germans. the germans need to get into line with, you know, they need to buy gas from us, like they can ship l n g over and meet the german based load for power and heating and 40 percent of it comes by pipeline from the mall pipe or the pipeline and also north stream one. and so they, it's, it's the kind of a ridiculous world view. in america, there's so detached from reality, what happens of russia turns off the gas to europe. what then they're going to want world war 3 at the west. because what, what happens it, russia is allowed to process it's name it's, i mean what i, when you can't put chips when you can't do commerce on the high seas there sees they seized a believe c is to ship in the english channel yesterday that they believe was under sanctions. i mean, this is very dangerous because if you look at the series of events in streaks,

they have preceded worse like world war to look what japan was pushed into a corner in much the same way and with sanctions and all the rest of it. couldn't buyers sell or get, get access to markets or fuel? and then pearl harbor happens after that. i'm not saying that will happen in this case. but i'm saying this is over. these are all the tell tale signs for a prelude to wider war. i think people, there are people in the west of there, so reckless they don't care where this ends up. and this is a problem that's. that's where we stand gentlemen. if price is going to be watching my bank, my guess, i guess a bullet and in budapest where i think our viewers the washing as iraqi cnx family member. ah, ah, ah, when else think wrong when? oh, just a to see how'd an

engagement equal to trail when they find themselves well to pardon, we choose to look for common ground. o is your media reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being led? direct? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the

shallows. ah, you crane 2nd largest city called cove is now at the center of fighting with a huge explosion reported on numerous claims of st. skirmishes. meanwhile, a hope for a diplomatic solution in ukraine. he has delegation has arrived on the beller russian board for negotiations with russian officials. the talks are due to begin any minute. now, united nations calls for emergency special session on bush's military operations. ukraine is western powers. try to isolate moscow and the you close to the test base to russian flights and announces a band on news agencies, odyssey sport nick on netflix injuries. ah.